RX2 quality weirdness

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Marco Raaphorst
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30 Jun 2015

When you drop for example a RX2-file of 75 bpm into a 120 bpm audio track and change the tempo to 75 bpm it sounds totally bad. 

BUT when I change the tempo to 75 bpm first and THEN drop the RX2-file it will sound okay.

In Ableton Live it doesn't matter what you do. The RX2-file will sound killer on 75 bpm any way around. Is this a bug in Reason maybe?

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Exowildebeest
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30 Jun 2015

It's expected behaviour - importing a rex file to an audio track treats the rex as if it were a wav, tagging the clip with the current tempo set in the project. Thus stretching takes places if you then change the tempo.

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maketunes
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30 Jun 2015

Ableton Live 9 uses a far superior stretch algorithm. Different to 8 and below.. You can drop most file types even Rex2 at any tempo into live and it sorts it out perfectly in most cases. Different animal.

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Marco Raaphorst
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30 Jun 2015

Exowildebeest wrote:It's expected behaviour - importing a rex file to an audio track treats the rex as if it were a wav, tagging the clip with the current tempo set in the project. Thus stretching takes places if you then change the tempo.
it doesn't make sense to me. Reason should recognise it's a rx2-file like in Ableton Live.

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Exowildebeest
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30 Jun 2015

Exowildebeest wrote:It's expected behaviour - importing a rex file to an audio track treats the rex as if it were a wav, tagging the clip with the current tempo set in the project. Thus stretching takes places if you then change the tempo.
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
it doesn't make sense to me.
Marco Raaphorst wrote:Reason should recognise it's a rx2-file like in Ableton Live.


It recognizes that when you drag it to the rack - it'll make a Dr. Rex player, which is Reason's way of treating a Rex file properly ;)

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Marco Raaphorst
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30 Jun 2015

maketunes wrote:Ableton Live 9 uses a far superior stretch algorithm. Different to 8 and below.. You can drop most file types even Rex2 at any tempo into live and it sorts it out perfectly in most cases. Different animal.
Yes this works perfect in Live. The new Pro stretch in Live 9.2 is very good. I have tested it against Reason a lot. Reason sounds better and doesn't cause these comb filtering artefacts. Reason also use a lot more CPU power even when it timestretches non-realtime.

Back in the day Reason was the most CPU friendly piece of software I could imagine. But Live now is the de facto. It runs super smooth. 

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Marco Raaphorst
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30 Jun 2015

Exowildebeest wrote:It's expected behaviour - importing a rex file to an audio track treats the rex as if it were a wav, tagging the clip with the current tempo set in the project. Thus stretching takes places if you then change the tempo.
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
it doesn't make sense to me.
Marco Raaphorst wrote:Reason should recognise it's a rx2-file like in Ableton Live.
Exowildebeest wrote:
It recognizes that when you drag it to the rack - it'll make a Dr. Rex player, which is Reason's way of treating a Rex file properly ;)
But why make it sound extremely bad when dropped as audio-file? I don't get it. Or is this the tech stuff people like? To make stuff very difficult and less user friendly? 



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Exowildebeest
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30 Jun 2015

Exowildebeest wrote:It's expected behaviour - importing a rex file to an audio track treats the rex as if it were a wav, tagging the clip with the current tempo set in the project. Thus stretching takes places if you then change the tempo.
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
it doesn't make sense to me.
Marco Raaphorst wrote:Reason should recognise it's a rx2-file like in Ableton Live.
Exowildebeest wrote:
It recognizes that when you drag it to the rack - it'll make a Dr. Rex player, which is Reason's way of treating a Rex file properly ;)
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
But why make it sound extremely bad when dropped as audio-file? I don't get it. Or is this the tech stuff people like? To make stuff very difficult and less user friendly? 

But it doesn't make it sound extremely bad if you follow the right procedure, which is importing the Rex file at its correct tempo, and then changing tempo to match the stretch.

I agree it's not the most elegant procedure, but it's a consequence of the way they've implemented stretching. In Ableton it's user controlled (with way more options than Reason) through a menu on the clip. In Reason, it's done by following the right sequence of steps, there's no menu's or controls to guide you. On the one hand it's simpler (and it sounds great) but on the other, it can also result in confusion.

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Marco Raaphorst
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30 Jun 2015

Yes thanks. I am getting older and start getting annoyed about too complex things. Somehow Ableton seems to be doing so many things just right and Propellerhead has lost it's innovative vision. But well, that's another topic :)

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Exowildebeest
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30 Jun 2015

Marco Raaphorst wrote:Yes thanks. I am getting older and start getting annoyed about too complex things. Somehow Ableton seems to be doing so many things just right and Propellerhead has lost it's innovative vision. But well, that's another topic :)
Reason and Ableton have had completely different developments - Ableton was designed for audio stretching and live playing of audio files since version 1. It had very little in the form of sound creation. Reason's road has been the opposite. In that light, it's not surprising they behave so differently in this particular aspect.

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Marco Raaphorst
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30 Jun 2015

Marco Raaphorst wrote:Yes thanks. I am getting older and start getting annoyed about too complex things. Somehow Ableton seems to be doing so many things just right and Propellerhead has lost it's innovative vision. But well, that's another topic :)
Exowildebeest wrote:
Reason and Ableton have had completely different developments - Ableton was designed for audio stretching and live playing of audio files since version 1. It had very little in the form of sound creation. Reason's road has been the opposite. In that light, it's not surprising they behave so differently in this particular aspect.
Live is meant for sound creation. It can do anything extremely quickly. Reason is more conservative, more like an emulated rack. Killer sound too, but with a few exceptions :D

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Exowildebeest
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30 Jun 2015

Marco Raaphorst wrote:Yes thanks. I am getting older and start getting annoyed about too complex things. Somehow Ableton seems to be doing so many things just right and Propellerhead has lost it's innovative vision. But well, that's another topic :)
Exowildebeest wrote:
Reason and Ableton have had completely different developments - Ableton was designed for audio stretching and live playing of audio files since version 1. It had very little in the form of sound creation. Reason's road has been the opposite. In that light, it's not surprising they behave so differently in this particular aspect.
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
Marco Raaphorst wrote:Live is meant for sound creation.
Marco Raaphorst wrote: It can do anything extremely quickly. Reason is more conservative, more like an emulated rack. Killer sound too, but with a few exceptions :D
It really wasn't at first. As far as I know, it was born out of Robert Henke's desire to have a software utility to play various audio tracks and manipulate those live.

Imo, it still reflects that focus on audio instead of MIDI and instruments. It hosts VST's now, yes, it has its own 'Combinator' yes, and with Max for Live it has the potential for modularity and deep things, but "extremely quickly" on sounddesign, like it is in Reason with all the instant visual representation, no.

Ableton's stretching though, is in itself a very cool creative tool. It can create a lot of different textures, which Reason's algorithm can't do.

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ScuzzyEye
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30 Jun 2015

Exowildebeest wrote:As far as I know, it was born out of Robert Henke's desire to have a software utility to play various audio tracks and manipulate those live.
That fact is betrayed by the program's name. :)

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EnochLight
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30 Jun 2015

Marco,

Are you doing this with Reason while ReWired to Ableton Live, or when running Reason by itself?
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

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gak
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30 Jun 2015

I just noticed this too.

Doesn't seem like it should be correct behavior or something that shouldn't be corrected.

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Marco Raaphorst
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01 Jul 2015

EnochLight wrote:Marco,

Are you doing this with Reason while ReWired to Ableton Live, or when running Reason by itself?
Without ReWire. 

I never ever would use audio-track in Rewire mode since it runs on low res and sounds extremely bad. This is another thing to worry about but the Props have told me that it is by design. So they will not change it. Their decision, not mine :)

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Marco Raaphorst
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01 Jul 2015

Marco Raaphorst wrote:Yes thanks. I am getting older and start getting annoyed about too complex things. Somehow Ableton seems to be doing so many things just right and Propellerhead has lost it's innovative vision. But well, that's another topic :)
Exowildebeest wrote:
Reason and Ableton have had completely different developments - Ableton was designed for audio stretching and live playing of audio files since version 1. It had very little in the form of sound creation. Reason's road has been the opposite. In that light, it's not surprising they behave so differently in this particular aspect.
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
Marco Raaphorst wrote:Live is meant for sound creation.
Marco Raaphorst wrote: It can do anything extremely quickly. Reason is more conservative, more like an emulated rack. Killer sound too, but with a few exceptions :D
Exowildebeest wrote:
It really wasn't at first. As far as I know, it was born out of Robert Henke's desire to have a software utility to play various audio tracks and manipulate those live.

Imo, it still reflects that focus on audio instead of MIDI and instruments. It hosts VST's now, yes, it has its own 'Combinator' yes, and with Max for Live it has the potential for modularity and deep things, but "extremely quickly" on sounddesign, like it is in Reason with all the instant visual representation, no.

Ableton's stretching though, is in itself a very cool creative tool. It can create a lot of different textures, which Reason's algorithm can't do.
Yes but soon Henke also invented that Operator synth :)

And yes, both are cool.

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Marco Raaphorst
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01 Jul 2015

Exowildebeest wrote:As far as I know, it was born out of Robert Henke's desire to have a software utility to play various audio tracks and manipulate those live.
ScuzzyEye wrote: That fact is betrayed by the program's name. :)
It was meant to create things in a live way using the Session View. Not for playing live per se. Henke works like that a lot. Instead of stopping the sequencer all the time get the tape rolling and create stuff on the fly. And bounce these ideas to and arrangement which you can further tweak in the Arranger View. I still find that a killer concept.



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maketunes
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01 Jul 2015

Exowildebeest wrote:As far as I know, it was born out of Robert Henke's desire to have a software utility to play various audio tracks and manipulate those live.
ScuzzyEye wrote: That fact is betrayed by the program's name. :)
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
It was meant to create things in a live way using the Session View. Not for playing live per se. Henke works like that a lot. Instead of stopping the sequencer all the time get the tape rolling and create stuff on the fly. And bounce these ideas to and arrangement which you can further tweak in the Arranger View. I still find that a killer concept.

Yes a killer concept. and it works very well. Most importantly in live is the best rendering engine out there IMHO. 

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Exowildebeest
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01 Jul 2015

Marco Raaphorst wrote:Yes thanks. I am getting older and start getting annoyed about too complex things. Somehow Ableton seems to be doing so many things just right and Propellerhead has lost it's innovative vision. But well, that's another topic :)
Exowildebeest wrote:
Reason and Ableton have had completely different developments - Ableton was designed for audio stretching and live playing of audio files since version 1. It had very little in the form of sound creation. Reason's road has been the opposite. In that light, it's not surprising they behave so differently in this particular aspect.
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
Marco Raaphorst wrote:Live is meant for sound creation.
Marco Raaphorst wrote: It can do anything extremely quickly. Reason is more conservative, more like an emulated rack. Killer sound too, but with a few exceptions :D
Exowildebeest wrote:
It really wasn't at first. As far as I know, it was born out of Robert Henke's desire to have a software utility to play various audio tracks and manipulate those live.

Imo, it still reflects that focus on audio instead of MIDI and instruments. It hosts VST's now, yes, it has its own 'Combinator' yes, and with Max for Live it has the potential for modularity and deep things, but "extremely quickly" on sounddesign, like it is in Reason with all the instant visual representation, no.

Ableton's stretching though, is in itself a very cool creative tool. It can create a lot of different textures, which Reason's algorithm can't do.
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
Yes but soon Henke also invented that Operator synth :)

And yes, both are cool.
Yeah Operator is fantastic. We now have FM4 which comes close - still waiting for a RE like Granulator though :)

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Gorilla Texas
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01 Jul 2015

EnochLight wrote:Marco,

Are you doing this with Reason while ReWired to Ableton Live, or when running Reason by itself?
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
Without ReWire. 

I never ever would use audio-track in Rewire mode since it runs on low res and sounds extremely bad. This is another thing to worry about but the Props have told me that it is by design. So they will not change it. Their decision, not mine :)
Audio in rewire is good at 32-bit float I don't where you get that from?


Ableton Live must have an option to ignore the meta data in samples if it sounds good at any BPM and must have no automatic stretch option.. That could be bad or good depending who you ask.

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Marco Raaphorst
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01 Jul 2015

EnochLight wrote:Marco,

Are you doing this with Reason while ReWired to Ableton Live, or when running Reason by itself?
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
Without ReWire. 

I never ever would use audio-track in Rewire mode since it runs on low res and sounds extremely bad. This is another thing to worry about but the Props have told me that it is by design. So they will not change it. Their decision, not mine :)
Gorilla Texas wrote:
Audio in rewire is good at 32-bit float I don't where you get that from?


Ableton Live must have an option to ignore the meta data in samples if it sounds good at any BPM and must have no automatic stretch option.. That could be bad or good depending who you ask.
it's the time stretching algorithm with runs in lowres mode when rewired.

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Exowildebeest
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01 Jul 2015

EnochLight wrote:Marco,

Are you doing this with Reason while ReWired to Ableton Live, or when running Reason by itself?
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
Without ReWire. 

I never ever would use audio-track in Rewire mode since it runs on low res and sounds extremely bad. This is another thing to worry about but the Props have told me that it is by design. So they will not change it. Their decision, not mine :)
Gorilla Texas wrote:
Audio in rewire is good at 32-bit float I don't where you get that from?


Ableton Live must have an option to ignore the meta data in samples if it sounds good at any BPM and must have no automatic stretch option.. That could be bad or good depending who you ask.
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
it's the time stretching algorithm with runs in lowres mode when rewired.
Hasn't that bug been fixed yet? Propellerheads are aware, aren't they?

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Marco Raaphorst
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01 Jul 2015

EnochLight wrote:Marco,

Are you doing this with Reason while ReWired to Ableton Live, or when running Reason by itself?
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
Without ReWire. 

I never ever would use audio-track in Rewire mode since it runs on low res and sounds extremely bad. This is another thing to worry about but the Props have told me that it is by design. So they will not change it. Their decision, not mine :)
Gorilla Texas wrote:
Audio in rewire is good at 32-bit float I don't where you get that from?


Ableton Live must have an option to ignore the meta data in samples if it sounds good at any BPM and must have no automatic stretch option.. That could be bad or good depending who you ask.
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
it's the time stretching algorithm with runs in lowres mode when rewired.
Exowildebeest wrote:
Hasn't that bug been fixed yet? Propellerheads are aware, aren't they?
It's by design. The Props won't change that. I have had contact with them about this. And have asked for Rewire master support for ages. 

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ScuzzyEye
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01 Jul 2015

Exowildebeest wrote:Hasn't that bug been fixed yet? Propellerheads are aware, aren't they?
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
It's by design. The Props won't change that.
The design is, if the tempo can be changed at any time by the Rewire master, there's no way for Reason to render the audio into high quality, because it doesn't have control over the sequencer, and doesn't know what the tempo will be at any point in the track.

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