Soft Clip (Maximizer)

[skie]

Wondering how hot you guys like to hit the maximizer (in Soft Clip mode, not limiter) for a bass-heavy type mix, assuming the master fader is at 0 dbfs, and then how much input gain you typically use? Assuming you already EQ'd and compressed Thanks!

[Theo.M]

Hi skie, I actually only use it during mixing as soft clip mode really keeps any peaks from causing ear or speaker damaging bursts.. so more of a safety zero latency net.. then replaced with a more capable product (ozone) at master time. If you can't afford the $25 for Ozone then I would say the props one can give you good results too but only at small gain reduction. 
The input gain totally depends on the mix level you are feeding it of course and how much GR is happening, and how much input level you are using before the mix starts to sound bad/changed/distorted/squashed! There is really no straight answer for how much input gain one would typically use as it's such a variable subject.

Bass heavy.. but what.. rock? Pop? Tek? that would help to know also...

[Benedict]

The other thing to bear in mind is that any form of clipping or drive will decrease the perception of bass as it is adding high freq. content.

Ok so maybe a tiny amount of boost at 1 octave above the bass fundamental will improve what people think they hear but if you want a real bass heavy mix then watch how much clipping you do. Of course if you want a low-mid lump then clip hard and M-Class Maximizer will do a stellar job for that.

[Kov]

It depends how your peak to VU ratio is. I push to -8db vu/0db peak in extreme cases. Normally i go to -10/0.

[FGL]

Forget about "bass heavy type Mix" with the Maximizer. Try Ozone. It is the only way to get easy loud mixes.

[Kenni]

Forget about "bass heavy type Mix" with the Maximizer. Try Ozone. It is the only way to get easy loud mixes.

+1 - And at 25 EUR, Ozone is a bargain.

[skie]

Thanks for the input everyone....this is mostly hip hop/RnB I'm working on, I'm going to give the Ozone maximizer a spin.  I'm just trying to get the "loudest" mix possible without killing all the dynamics (and without too much low end distortion) and lately Soft Clip on the master (after master bus comp, EQ, then mclass comp) has been sounding best to me.

[FGL]

For a loud mix the limiter should be the last in the row, special if you use Ozone. You smash it against this wall

[selig]

For a loud mix you don't always need to slam the limiter by much. This can only happen if you are building "loud" tracks from the start, choosing "loud" samples for all drum elements, etc. 

In other words…
A "loud" mix starts with the first sound/loop you choose, i.e. at the BEGINNING of the production, not with the limiter at the END of the chain. If you expect a limiter to suddenly make a quite mix "loud", it's typically not going to happen.  

[skie]

That's the thing, I prefer lately Soft Clip to Limiter because I feel I can get it louder without sucking the life out of the mix - however the low-end distortion becomes very obvious when played back on my laptop speakers.  Is brick-wall limiting pretty much standard on every track these days that finds its way into a release?  I'm going to buy Ozone tonite, any suggestions on default settings to start with (soft clip or limiter?) would be greatly appreciated!  Thank you

[FGL]

+ What Selig says, and this is where the Sience beginns.

[selig]

That's the thing, I prefer lately Soft Clip to Limiter because I feel I can get it louder without sucking the life out of the mix - however the low-end distortion becomes very obvious when played back on my laptop speakers.  Is brick-wall limiting pretty much standard on every track these days that finds its way into a release?  I'm going to buy Ozone tonite, any suggestions on default settings to start with (soft clip or limiter?) would be greatly appreciated!  Thank you

You'll have to be more specific, knowing that some tracks are classical or jazz and probably don't use brick wall limiting, vs some that use it as the main "effect" to get their sound. Then there's all the tracks in the middle, which may use very light amounts (1-2 dB reduction MAX, and even then only occasionally during the track).

[skie]

^I'm referring mainly to any kind of "dance" genre.

[selig]

^I'm referring mainly to any kind of "dance" genre.

I'd say YES then.

[skie]

Cool.  So where is you mix peaking at, in general, before you feed it through the maximizer?  Would this differ for soft clip vs brick wall limiter?  Thank you

[lowpryo]

Cool.  So where is you mix peaking at, in general, before you feed it through the maximizer?  Would this differ for soft clip vs brick wall limiter?  Thank you

 
unfortunately this information alone isn't going to get you far. just knowing where the mix "peaks" doesn't actually tell you anything else about the dynamics of the mix, which would then indicate how much more processing you'll then need. it should really be on a case-by-case basis with each song.

[selig]

Cool.  So where is you mix peaking at, in general, before you feed it through the maximizer?  Would this differ for soft clip vs brick wall limiter?  Thank you

That is actually irrelevant in that the mix could be peaking almost anywhere and my response would be the same. If for example the mix is peaking at  -10 dBFS vs peaking at -3 dBFS, it's a matter of adjusting the threshold to get the desired effect.

So what exactly IS the desired effect? For me it's a balance between sound "quality" and perceived "loudness", both factors which are totally subjective IMO. The "law of diminishing returns" can quickly set in when increasing limiting, and it can be easy to be fooled by the increase loudness while entirely missing the negative artifacts introduced by the process. Make sure all changes you make really are "improvements" to the "quality" and not just increases to "loudness". 

More specifically, to achieve the "desired effect" I use the Big Meter in Reason to judge loudness by using the VU + Peak mode. The difference between peak and average/VU is called the Crest Factor, and I shoot for a value between 10 and 14 dB for what I consider to be "loud" productions. Quite often I can achieve this crest factor (or close to it) with NO limiting whatsoever, simply by choosing sounds wisely and processing them a little at each stage (rather than trying to achieve all "loudness" in the final/mastering stage). 

To this end I always suggest that if you want a loud master, then EVERYTHING you do from the first sound you choose to the final tweaks to a mastering limiter should be aimed towards achieving this goal.

[skie]

Great advice, thank you!

[skie]

Well I haven't got Ozone yet but here's how it turned out using the Maximizer - mostly soft clip mode, sometimes limiter mode.  Pretty happy with the results for demo.  First 3 are the most recent www.soundcloud.com/skinsol

[Marco Raaphorst]

The Soft Clip sounds amazing warm (overtones are not too high). But try it without the Limiter active. Can sound extremely loud.

[normen]

I don't like the soft clip at all (not just in the maximizer, any softclip) on the master bus, for me it takes way too much impact from the low end and makes the high end too distorted, even when going just a few (even half) dBs into it. But I guess its a matter of taste, I do sometimes use soft clip in single tracks though if they can take the distortion and need to cut better through a mix.

[selig]

I don't like the soft clip at all (not just in the maximizer, any softclip) on the master bus, for me it takes way too much impact from the low end and makes the high end too distorted, even when going just a few (even half) dBs into it. But I guess its a matter of taste, I do sometimes use soft clip in single tracks though if they can take the distortion and need to cut better through a mix.

I feel exactly the same way about soft clip on the master (never use it), but haven't explored using it on individual tracks - great tip Normen!

[ProfessaKaos]

I don't like the soft clip at all (not just in the maximizer, any softclip) on the master bus, for me it takes way too much impact from the low end and makes the high end too distorted, even when going just a few (even half) dBs into it. But I guess its a matter of taste, I do sometimes use soft clip in single tracks though if they can take the distortion and need to cut better through a mix.

I feel exactly the same way about soft clip on the master (never use it), but haven't explored using it on individual tracks - great tip Normen!

Try soft clip on parallel channels, seems to float my boat most for its use.

[Marco Raaphorst]

Soft Clip on parallel channel and phase inverting it. Phase inverting on saturation is really nice in general.