What madness is happening over at props??

[KEVMOVE02]

This is an argument that gets a lot of traction among consumers who rather believe they were taken advantage of by the evil corporation, than acknowledge that they squandered the time they had use of a product, when the return on investment would have been greater than the discount offered to late adopters. Said another way, everybody who buys a product at the beginning of the life cycle knows that it (the product) will eventually end up in the bargain bin (unless its an Apple product, then you never expect the price to go down ever). If you are still bitter, join the support group for people who paid full price for Reason one day before the "grace period free upgrade" started.

[Raveshaper]

I'm guilty of tl;dr in this thread, I started at the top and got the gist.

To me, there are two things at work against the RE format and neither of them are market share.

1) Feature Set
Third party devices need to be able to do more things than the stock devices can. The core program needs to serve as the gateway to the world of extensions. If you want the retro vibe with the vanilla Reason experience, it's there. But if you want precision displays or modern tools, extensions are the "kit it out your way" solution to those cravings.
Currently, extensions can do less than the stock devices can.

2) Promotion
More people need to know PH is around. They need to flesh out Discover and use it to make each Reason user a partner/affiliate, just like YouTube does for channels. Provide a realistic shot at monetary incentive built into the process of participating in the platform. Create competitions for figuring out techniques or how-tos, post articles of lesser known features and let users submit videos that showcase and explain them. Use things like this to get the users to start the marketing buzz for free. How many would upgrade to 8.2 instead of staying on 7.1.2 (like me) if they could start monetizing directly through propellerhead or have their videos officially endorsed in the site?

Make extensions outshine the stock devices, incentivize the users into promoting the Reason biosphere for free.

IMO, that's what to do.

[True]

Currently, extensions can do less than the stock devices can

This is by design, and I doubt it will ever change. Props have touted over and over about how stable Reason is while running REs. A very large part of this must be (I presume, as a software developer) how Reason handles memory management and doles it out to the REs. This allows Reason to be the final arbiter before hitting the hardware, making sure nothing is going to cause a problem. If REs were able to do more than Reason could expect, then there's no way it could adequately afford such protection.

tl;dr - You want VSTs, and Props is highly unlikely to go that route.

[bitley]

When's the Minimoog sale going to be?
When I was 15 I could have saved up $400 and that'd been sufficient to get one.
Last one I saw for sale just went a couple of days ago for $4580.

[Upright]

But you aren't investing in the company; you are purchasing a product. I don't understand why you would buy a product that doesn't work for you. And if it does work for you, then future upgrades would be a perk, not a necessity.

I can't say I'm a fan of everything Props is doing, and I can't say Reason has every feature I would like. But I love the program and use it all the time because it does what I need. The day that stops being the case is the day I stop using it, regardless of what the company does.

I think by "investment" he meant- 

An asset or item that is purchased with the hope that it will show it's appreciation in the music he's making. In other words, Reason upgrades aren't beneficial at this point.

I'm just waiting for Props to do something that's upgrade worthy. I'd love to see Rewire Master or VST support. Don't get me wrong, I love Reason I just don't use it much these days. 

[Raveshaper]

I respectfully disagree.

VST integration is one thing, but expanding the scope of possibilities within the RE platform to go a few steps beyond the core devices is another.
Reason could still be the arbiter, you simply create an emphasis on the extensions rather than the core.
The core has nearly everything you need to get started in a comprehensive package.
The extensions would allow you to specialize and would open up the full potential of Reason as a platform by selling the user on making purchases based on their higher level capabilities alone.
As it is, much of what I see in the store I can make using default devices.
The only selling point is, essentially, "hey, want to have one device that does the job of that entire patch? here it is."
You could just use the patch instead, no motivation to buy.

Reason has to feel "extended" by extensions, not just more of the same.
Extensions need to provide an obvious cost/benefit analysis to generate clear motivation in order to drive sales.
You can't do that if they're weaker than the default rack, because then you have the most powerful stuff already. What's the use in spending more for "more of less"?
Also, more people need to know about it. Seriously.

But that's just how I feel about it.

[CharlyCharlzz]

but RE's can do more in some ways , it's only some features that could not be done or not exactly the same .
so in one hand we can CV and combine super fast etc... and on the other hand som devs could not do the exact same features into there RE's , we also have RE's that are not vst's like that papen drum synth and a few others .
for the promotion part I agree at 100% , they catched bigger parts of market when they did a small buzz for a new version fallowed by a big discount and now with RE's they need a lot of clients .
I think they doing better each year so I am not that worried but a Good year of promo around the web and in music school's and shops could bring some clients if done right $i guess , they need to reach the mass more .

[Grantham]

RE: But the question remains: Did/do you consider the product to be worth the price you paid?

Yes, absolutely. 

RE: If so, then what are you complaining about? A change in price (or included items) is not the same as a change in value

Thats the same point made numerous times in the thread, it's true and who amongst us hasn't been on the right side or the wrong side of a sale (case in point, yesterday I got an Email offer for iZotope Iris 2 for $149, a steal, and to those who paid $299 it's a kick in the teeth. Those early adopters might feel irked and undoubtedly there's a correlation between how long they'd owned the product prior to the sale (own it for two years, oh well, own it two weeks prior to the price drop and quite irate) but that's the universe. The company has to balance acquiring new business with annoying it's existing base but if handled right you can minimize impact and maximize gain, nature of business. Imagine though iZotope had ran the promotion as pay $149 and get Iris, Stutter Edit and Trash 2. To me that maximizes the impact on the existing customer base which ultimately minimizes the gain. 

I may the the only one who feels this thing has left a bitter taste in my mouth with Props, and so be it, probably just boring the internet in general with my diatribe 

[Upright]

Reason has to feel "extended" by extensions, not just more of the same.
Extensions need to provide an obvious cost/benefit analysis to generate clear motivation in order to drive sales.
You can't do that if they're weaker than the default rack, because then you have the most powerful stuff already. What's the use in spending more for "more of less"?
Also, more people need to know about it. Seriously.

But that's just how I feel about it.

I definitely see what you mean and it makes sense. I'd be interested in anything that will take Reason to a new level.

[Raveshaper]

Imagine though iZotope had ran the promotion as pay $149 and get Iris, Stutter Edit and Trash 2. To me that maximizes the impact on the existing customer base which ultimately minimizes the gain.

No, I agree that tastes bad. That doesn't sit well with me either and I only have the free utility extensions (and pretty much haven't touched them since download, because the rack already does those jobs).

I'm curious if there is an "opt out" ability for devs, or are they randomly eligible to take an unexpected hit in profit from bundles and other discount promotions?

Edit:
As far as a promotional campaign, I would do it like this. Users make a track or do a live performance on hardware. They really put their best game face on and really sell it with good editing, etc. Everyone's expecting the punch line to be either Dubspot or Ableton. At the end of every video, the producer/performer turns their laptop around, shows the screen, or displays the retail box to announce that Reason made what the audience has been listening to.

Maybe that's too "Ableton", or too much like the unrealistic kids on the new homepage, but we need something. We need to each of us go out into a disbelieving world and make something to say "look at what Reason can do". You know every little bit of positivity helps, and with so many negative spin zones, that has to be taking its toll.

It would be a shame if it all fell apart because we never rallied. I have stumbled in the past and have had my doubts, but I'm working feverishly with newfound vigor on my contribution to this grass roots idea.

I think a grass roots promo campaign like I'm discussing would be the best thing users who have truly loved this program could do as a way of saying thanks. Who knows. Its future may depend on it.

[True]

I think by "investment" he meant- 

An asset or item that is purchased with the hope that it will show it's appreciation in the music he's making. In other words, Reason upgrades aren't beneficial at this point.

I guess I just don't think of software as something to invest in. I understand the concept of not wanting to get involved in something that isn't going to be around later, but it's always a gamble to try to determine what that is. And from what I've heard from people around here, Reason isn't the only DAW they use, so I don't really see how using Reason is a waste of time or lost investment, as long as you are getting something from it now.

[True]

But that's just how I feel about it.

I understand how you feel about it, but I don't see how you can say that REs would extend beyond Reason's capabilities and yet Reason would still be able to limit those capabilities. If Reason can limit it, then it is not reaching beyond Reason's capabilities.

[True]

I may the the only one who feels this thing has left a bitter taste in my mouth with Props, and so be it, probably just boring the internet in general with my diatribe 

You are hardly the only one who feels this way. Vent all you want. My point is only that there are many ways to get past a bad taste in your mouth, and none of them ends with complaining about it to the general public. At some point emotion has to give way to...uh, reason. And several of us on here have been looking at the rational side of it, that's all. We're not saying that you're wrong, just that you haven't got to the rational side of things yet.

[avasopht]

What grantham is experienced is called buyer's remorse

[gak]

This is too complex for me. In the many decades I've been on this planet I've never seen where life is fair ESPECIALLY in computer stuff. 

It's like going to get gas and paying 3.30 a gallon and it going down to 3.10 a gallon the next day and saying "hey, I overpaid yesterday" (and considering what we all pay for gas, it's NOT a far reach as an analogy) 

Or in my case...."hey the guy across the street bought his identical home for 150,000 less than mine 10 years ago........NO FAIR!

2+2 is always going to equal 4 no matter how you slice it. You are gonna win some, and lose some. It's not propellerheads fault.

[Raveshaper]

Well, it's like a restaurant.

You eat dinner, have a drink or two, and then they ask you if you would like a dessert.
You don't want to walk in and just eat dessert the whole time and then be asked if you would like other types of food.
Maybe dinner is all that you wanted and you decline the dessert.

The current state of rack extensions is like eating dessert the whole time, and then being asked if you'd like some meatloaf.
I say that because the features of the default rack exceed those of the extensions. No sampling capabilities and no advanced precision displays come to mind.

Yes, Reason should limit the capabilities of devices based on what it can handle while remaining stable, but it should do that by handicapping the default rack, not extensions.
If all you want is dinner, you can skip the dessert. The default rack will do what you need just fine.

If you have room for dessert, you can order a nice slice of pie in the RE store. Something that really hits the spot for you.
The main argument here is that preference is given to the extensions and their capabilities, not the default devices. They can remain capped in their current state. But the innovations and more powerful tools would all become more of a granular "pick and choose what suits you" type of thing with obvious selling points of greater power and possibilities.

So, yes it would still be limited. But the gulf between the extent of what is possible and the power of the default rack would grow.
By beefing up extensions beyond the default core app, it will sell itself even through casual comparison.

One thing about stability. Arguing about what is best practice in order to preserve the stability of Reason is no longer relevant, I feel.
Since Reason has been rewritten to be maintained using regular patches going forward, stability will inevitably take a dip.
So even saying that VST would shatter the dependability of the program is a straw man at this point.

[gak]

I was with you until you brought up "strawman"

But you make a some good points.

At this point in time, I'm just thankful that I've found a host I can make whatever music I'd like to make, w/o any unreasonable limitations and that RE's are extremely well priced for the most part.

[Upright]

 as long as you are getting something from it now.

That's exactly the point and I think we are saying the same things here. We've already made an initial purchase (investment) in the Reason software....so to that end, we agree that Reason is useful. But continuing to purchase upgrades, at this point isn't worth it to me (I'm speaking for myself) I'm using version 7 and I'll stay at this version until Propellerhead add something that would be beneficial to my workflow.  

[avasopht]

No sampling capabilities and no advanced precision displays come to mind.

What precision displays are we talking of? Nothing precise in stock devices that hasn't been done in rack extensions. Only feature stock devices have in their displays is a context menu.