What madness is happening over at props??

[Grantham]

Been a massive fan of the company since Rebirth and a Reason user since the day 1.0 dropped. Always had the fondest of opinions on the way the company operated and the direction they've taken the product (even when they merged Record which I was initially a bit miffed about). And as a long time audio hardware and software user you accept that sometimes you are an early adopter and buy something only to find a promotion kick you in the teeth for not waiting. But the recent Props RE Bundle promotion was utterly insulting to existing users. In each bundle I found I owned just enough of the REs that I'd paid way more than $199 already and owned a lot less than someone who had never bothered to buy a single RE at release time. I actually wrote to the company (something I never do) about how this was an ill conceived promotion as it should have had some allowance that if you already owned maybe more than X amount of REs in a given bundle you should have had some hugely discounted option on buying the thing. There was a lot of annoyed users it seems on some of the boards (sonic state etc) about the exact same thing. 

Today I see they have discounted the bundle even further to $149, so not only have they now p*ssed off the people who paid $199 within the past two months for it but its a further twist of the knife to loyal customer who adopted the REs earlier. I'll never ever pay full price for one again so counter beneficial strategy. 

Wondering how everyone else feels about this?

[zeebot]

This is what I learnt.
The idea to me seems to like going to the cinema. You pay the high admission fee to see the film first then 6 months later it comes out on DVD for less then 6 months later its on sale and a few years down the line its in the bargain bucket.
You pay 'top dolla' for the RE and you get to use it for 6 months while others that didn't buy it dont...see where this is going.
Most commodities depreciate in value...apart from Recycle it seems. Still weirded at the crazy price it still is.  

[eusti]

Good way of looking at it, zeebot!

D.

[MarkTarlton]

be careful to not get stuck in the mindest of needing new stuff all the time...use the gear you got and make music with the limitations..be happy and content and don't fall into the consumer mode where you constantly just buy, buy buy! ask yourself if you really need these gadgets and go through you list of RE"s that you have already bought just sitting there in your create list not being used...that's not worth spending a bunch of money to collect RE's..if you use em all that's great but I find I never use 75% of the ones I got that were on sale...like the uhbiks, tres, ivok, renoun, the list goes on and even though I saved a lot of cash I don't even use em so what good is that??

[zeebot]

This happened to me with Parsec. I waited and waited and waited until finally it went on sale.
Like I said I have quite a few REs now but I find myself coming back to only a certain percentage of them regularly.
Of course its great to have choice but really since owning an ipad I have a ridiculous amount of music apps on there.
I realised this way that I dont need every new flashy thing that is released.

[doinky]

I'll be honest. This has a strong effect on my buying as of late. I do not buy on impulse anymore unless it's already at discount. I have more than enough instruments to play around with until the next sale comes on. It's also why I don't try many RE's these days. Because when the sales start that's when I really want to be able to try devices.

So those who tell others to just try it, might be well warned, it's not always that simple for people who don't give into impulse buying anymore because of these damn sales.

[gak]

I feel my wallet getting lighter and lighter  

[forensickbeats]

I find the company policies way too blundery and unpredictable to be worth further investing in it. 

[The Intrancer]

The madness really started to begin to show from mid last year, and been a downward spiral ever since, in so many ways.., product, marketing, communication- i-e disconnect with community, pretty depressing actually

[Palmeira]

I think it's very sad what's happening as the Props have undoubtedly enriched many people's lives. However you have to call it how you see it and I made a conscious decision after V8 and Discover came out to not buy anything Reason related in future unless things get decidedly different for the better. So far I'm having a real easy time keeping my credit card in my wallet.

[ClassickHitz]

I think it's very sad what's happening as the Props have undoubtedly enriched many people's lives. However you have to call it how you see it and I made a conscious decision after V8 and Discover came out to not buy anything Reason related in future unless things get decidedly different for the better. So far I'm having a real easy time keeping my credit card in my wallet.

And while this seems harsh it's a truth I too have followed. Although admittedly I never was an impulse buyer when it came to Props unless it was for the actual software upgrade with the exception being version R8. 

The whole Discover experiment is pure horse sh!t thus far in my strong opinion an it's been a waisted 8 months of trying to get people to drink the Kool-aid. 

Madness centers around those who'll still find a way to pat Props on the back even when it's clear they are on the path to ruining a good product. 

This is some sad crap indeed!

[HeartbreakOne]

+1 for everything everyone has said so far.

And let us not forget, the upgraded REs (see: REQ131) that COST money to upgrade but cannot be trialed by owners of the previous version because...reasons. 

It's getting harder and harder to love Reason, I swear.  7 still rocks, but good grief, so many wasted opportunities.

[adfielding]

Not sure I understand the hate. Either a product is worth the asking price to you, or it isn't. I bought the Ozone Maximizer years ago for about 3 times what it's going for now, but I'm still incredibly happy with my purchase. Nobody is forcing you to buy these products.

[SoulState]

Not sure I understand the hate. Either a product is worth the asking price to you, or it isn't. I bought the Ozone Maximizer years ago for about 3 times what it's going for now, but I'm still incredibly happy with my purchase. Nobody is forcing you to buy these products.

 
Plus one!

....very pleased to finally add Ozone Maximizer to the rack.  In fact I've never been more pleased with Reason at-the-mo.

[zwerggle]

I understand the frustration, but at the same time, you're actually complaining about the price *going down*. Just like the other posted, the movie model is similar. First, a film goes in theaters for top dollar. Then the DVD comes out.

Similarly, TV shows either have to be viewed with some sort of cable TV package or be purchased over at Amazon or iTunes or something.

After that, they start appearing either in a physical discount bin, like at Best Buy or on Netflix, which is kind of the "discount bin" of the online video world. For physical media, they'll eventually get discounted further, like if you see some really old or crappy movie for sale for stupidly cheap at Walgreen's or CVS, etc. 

Comic books work the same way. You can either buy them one at a time as they come out or buy them in one of trade paperback bundle things. When I was a kid living in France, they would take it a step further and actually sell physically old magazines in a bag at maybe a fifth of their original price with the sides of the pages marked (like how CD cases get holes punched in them).

Video games get re-released for cheaper when they've been successful. A few years back, Valve started giving away Team Fortress 2 completely for free!  Books go from hardback to paperback. Hell, even iPhones get cheaper every year.

Again, I feel your pain, but if you bought a piece of software three years ago, then you theoretically have gotten three years of use it. From an intellectual property and R&D standpoint, that's also three years that other companies have had to copy and learn from the product, so that software you bought can actually be less valuable for that reason alone. (This is absolutely how things go for the iPhone. It's constantly getting copied; and Apple has to continually improve and update it.)

Finally, there's good ol' supply and demand. People probably aren't buying the software as much any more, so they need to reduce the price to increase sales. If this annoys you, then don't buy this stuff! I'm still on Reason 6.5! 

[gak]

Not sure I understand the hate.

I started at the end of last year, and have been enjoying reason so much. If someone has a beef, groovy. But they came up with a terrific update recently (so I doubt they are in some kinda trouble)

IK does this. EVERY SINGLE nanosecond they launch some other unbelievable blow-out type event (even though there are not anymore people left to buy ) and it seems to be working for them.

I don't think there is anything wrong, again, I just worry about my paypal account  

[tumar]

IK does this. EVERY SINGLE nanosecond they launch some other unbelievable blow-out type event (even though there are not anymore people left to buy ) and it seems to be working for them.

I don't think there is anything wrong, again;

Yes, I'm going to buy IK TRacks Grand Slam - 16 top notch plugins for 150 euro (60% sale).
Look at Melda Production - they give weekly 50% sale for random plugins. Weekly!

I promised to not buy REs, but sale prices are so tempting. Actually, I haven't bought any RE with full price

[avasopht]

You know how some people feel so happy all they time that they go around smiling at other people to make them feel happy too, ...

... well I think this is that but like, ... upside down  :s0225:

[CharlyCharlzz]

I think reason 7 rocks and so is reason 8 but I havent upgrade yet so I don't really know  LOL But in général I think it's a good DAW
and them bundle are damn cool .
maybe they have to fix a few things here and there but I gain from using it over other daws .

[Majestik Monkey]

Its a good Job ' we're not Talking Hardware Synths n Effect's Then ? 

Cos i'm sat here with a Full Studio on mi Laptop ' I'm counting my blessings ' I guess  :s0403:  lol 

[gak]

You know how some people feel so happy all they time that they go around smiling at other people to make them feel happy too, ...

... well I think this is that but like, ... upside down  :s0225:

Lolz.

If you are too up, they have to kick you down. If you are really down (and actually have a problem) they kick harder  

[psychasm]

This is what I learnt.
The idea to me seems to like going to the cinema. You pay the high admission fee to see the film first then 6 months later it comes out on DVD for less then 6 months later its on sale and a few years down the line its in the bargain bucket.
You pay 'top dolla' for the RE and you get to use it for 6 months while others that didn't buy it dont...see where this is going.
Most commodities depreciate in value...apart from Recycle it seems. Still weirded at the crazy price it still is.  

Good point about recycle. Being a hobbyist I appreciate any sale which props or anyone for that matter decides on having. There is no way i am going to complain when there is a sale. How can i have an issue if someone is making an offer on something which i could not previously afford or was not in my budget, and now decides to offer it for much less? And If they decide to further reduce that item some months down the line , how on earth can i have an issue with that also, especially if i was not moved by the first sale?So i have waited long enough , and if i fell like it , i will buy it. If not , i wont. It's that simple. if i feel like waiting 6 months to a year for another sale, that is what i am going to do. it all boils down to choice. no one is forcing anyone to buy anything. However I am being enticed into buying something and if i fall for the marketing gimmicks , then the trick would have worked.

[Grantham]

I agree with a lot of the opinions shared, good forum for sure. I think though I might have suggested it was just the product discounting model which so aggrieved me and it definitely isn't. After 20 years in this game I know well that attracting new business at the cost of making early adopters less than pleased is a vital revenue stream for companies. And as people often say the premium that comes with earlier access to equipment or software not being sold at a limited time price reduction is the lack of discount you would have received if you'd waited  (although who amongst us hasn't had the sting of buying something days or weeks before the promotional starts, the consumer equivalent of email root canal). And to be fair I've been on the right side of the fence for those promotions too (thanks you Arturia for making my recent MiniBrute purchase a no brainer and my thoughts and prayers are with my early adopter musical brethren
It's at a point now with companies like Native Instruments where if you were to buy a new software release (rare as they've been in the past two years) or sound pack or even hardware unit and not wait for the absolutely predicable discount promotion you severely must have needed the item (or needed retail therapy). 

Why the Props instance was different to me was because not only was the delta in price and RE volume was so much, the rewarding of those who presumably had not bought enough REs within a bundle and inversely the punishment on those who had was immense. On one bundle alone I worked out I'd spent roughly $400 on what someone could then have spent $200 to get..so while harsh that's just the discount that as I said you learn to live with. But the absolute kicker was the individual buying the bundle got an additional $400 give or take worth of product, and a few items I'd really have liked to have. Sure I could have bought the bundle and still saved but the overall thing made me feel disgusted. How easy would it have been for Props to strategically think it through and not alienate their undoubted biggest asset, their existing loyal customer base. Theres lots of ways they could have run that promotion to appeal to both bases. The additional discount now down to $150, just seems like short term gain long term loss. I will never ever buy an RE at full price again, and hard as it is to quantify I wonder if Props compare the revenue gained from the promotion to revenue and good will lost as a result...was it good or bad business practice. 

Finally, I think while the movie model is a clever analogy it's not comparable in this case. The nature of the product types is too different. A movie in a theater is a very finite service, give or take 1.5 hours access then out the door. After that, as a commodity, it exists only in the viewers memory unless they want to pay and see it in the theater again (lets pretend we lived in a torrent less world). A few months later you get the option to purchase the thing and depending on the medium type will pay slightly less, the same or with BlueRay more than the theater ticket. Presumably a lot of the customers who saw it in the theater and liked it will be a part of the target market. Finally when that resource is saturated they discount to bargain bin or streaming because the movie has minimal inherent value, not being upgraded etc, so any way to move product is good. The price point and margins is also very different. I can't imagine anyone ever having a valid argument or gripe with the fact that 6 months ago they saw Movie X in a theater and paid $15 and now it's n Best Buy on DVD for $8. Im just saying 

[avasopht]

Don't do a sale, you're greedy.

Do a sale, you're greedy.

Do a big sale, you're greedy.

Do a moderate sale, you're greedy.

...

This is why Propellerhead ignore negative forum feedback from the neurotic. See my post above.

I'm just happy I'm living on more than $1 a day and can afford to pay full price, and that I was born at a time in human history where we have not only immediate access to knowledge but to creative expression.

[Gaja]

Well I bought Logic 7 back in the day for 1000€. Now I have a version I can't upgrade and Logic x is 180€? incredibly cheap. And I really think Apple is seriously damaging the industry here, because they set expectations in customers, which smaller developers are unable to fulfill.
Still I think it's entirely fine to offer these massive bundle deals, waves does it all the time for example. I don't care much. I've bought a product at full price, used it, worked with it, had my fun wih it and am always able to have that experience again. Many people spend 150 Bucks a night for clubbing, which is a consuming basically. It is a one time experience and te only thing you have left of it the next day are shady memories of awkward situations and a hangover like a volcano eruption in slow motion.
So seeing that money is just a means to get something you can enjoy, why should I have problems with the fact that others can now get for much cheaper when I paid much more? I paid 100€ for a 60GB harddrive back then. Now I can get 64 gb on a stick for much less.