Anyone an SDK user?

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LaptopMusician
Posts: 11
Joined: 23 Jan 2015

13 May 2015

I am really curious about developing REs and want to know whether I need to have any programming langauge skills. Can anyone confirm what language the SDK uses such as C++ or C# or even someother programming langauge.

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jam-s
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13 May 2015

It has been said that the SDK uses a CLANG compiler to compile C++ code which is invoking functions from a quite restrictive API.

LaptopMusician
Posts: 11
Joined: 23 Jan 2015

13 May 2015

So no GUI then that enables drag and drop and attach subs or functions?

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Kazz
Posts: 95
Joined: 07 Mar 2015

13 May 2015

I don't have access to the SDK, but if you want to make sampled instruments with the fairly new IDT (like JP's organs or Republik, or The A-List guitar stuff), I think that can be done without really knowing a programming language.

The main SDK though is a Software Development Kit with tools to use in writing your own programs...it may make the things it's responsible for easy, but the main DSP code is something you'd have to learn to write, unless you wanted to hire someone to do it for you.

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ScuzzyEye
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13 May 2015

LaptopMusician wrote:So no GUI then that enables drag and drop and attach subs or functions?
If you're thinking of something like SynthMaker, no. It definitely requires writing code.

LaptopMusician
Posts: 11
Joined: 23 Jan 2015

13 May 2015

Thanks all. Think this is a nonstarter then. Shame PH cant show just a little more info into what is required to create REs. Cycle74s MaxForLive looks far more intuitive.

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Kazz
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13 May 2015

Max4Live, Reaktor, etc. are very nice and interesting tools, and a great choice if you want to create instruments or effects without real coding, but they also have their own limitations and use extra resources to do the same job so it's not a failing of the RE SDK that it isn't like those products, it's just a different way of approaching the issue - and it's the way almost everything else is done in the software development world.

LaptopMusician
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Joined: 23 Jan 2015

13 May 2015

Fair point, Kazz. Cheers

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Lunesis
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13 May 2015

If we carry on with this conversation, let's try to refrain from discussing any nda stuff.

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jam-s
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13 May 2015

As long as all people discussing this here have not signed the NDA of the Propellerhead RE SDK it should not pose a problem. It's not like publishing this information is illegal unless you signed something prohibiting you from this.

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Lizard
Posts: 464
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

13 May 2015

LaptopMusician wrote:I am really curious about developing REs and want to know whether I need to have any programming langauge skills. Can anyone confirm what language the SDK uses such as C++ or C# or even someother programming langauge.
To answer the OP directly and not violate NDA it is publicly known that programming Re is done two ways. The first uses an understanding of C++.  Which software package you use I believe is up to you.  The second uses the Instrument Development Tool or as you will often hear it referred to as IDT.  IDT requires that you have an understanding of how SCRIPT work.  SCRIPT is not a specific technology by Propellerhead as there are several other tools out there that employ this including web based applications.  Propellerhead do have their own "IDT-centric " script. 

So do you HAVE to have C++ knowledge?  Only if you intend to work outside of IDT.  Remember the "I" in IDT stands for INSTRUMENT.  If you want to build an effect unit, CV tool and things of that nature you will be programming using C++.

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rcbuse
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13 May 2015

LaptopMusician wrote:I am really curious about developing REs and want to know whether I need to have any programming langauge skills. Can anyone confirm what language the SDK uses such as C++ or C# or even someother programming langauge.
Pretty good rundown of what is involved here, along with whats required to sign up:

https://www.propellerheads.se/developers

And the lastest additions of stuff:
https://www.propellerheads.se/press/151 ... n-platform

KEVMOVE02
Posts: 267
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

13 May 2015

Out of curiosity, will the OP actually try to qualify as an RE developer, thus gaining firsthand experience or rely on speculation?

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Raveshaper
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Joined: 16 Jan 2015

14 May 2015

I'll just put this here.

Nick Batt knows his stuff. He's a major gear head and has knowledge extending all the way back before computers were a viable option like they are today.
What I'm getting at is he's good at sniffing out the right technical questions to ask.

I respect Magnus for his work, but watch his body language and subtle question dodging during this interview -- he's an honest guy put on the spot and he betrays a lot without saying it.
Things have changed since then, but not enough IMO. Now I'll put my two cents in.

I haven't registered as a developer yet, although I have been very tempted several times.
The largest driving force behind my reluctance has been that I don't want to be shut down or sued for speaking about my research.
I want others to be able to benefit from my work because I want people to start seeing this program for its hidden capabilities that exceed the expectations of its stigma.
Someone on here once asked me in reply to my expression of that desire to educate "how would people benefit from knowledge they weren't able to apply?"
To me, responding like that to someone who is ready, willing, and able to advance the tools that music makers have available is the pinnacle of fatalism.
If someone showed you something you didn't think was possible and it increased your creativity or expressive potential, wouldn't you want to study it and apply it?

The perception that "you can't do that in Reason" still outweighs the fact that "some things you can only do in Reason" or the equally correct "you can do that more easily in Reason."
That stigma is not going to go away until someone shows people how. Participation in the SDK won't do that if no one is pitched a compelling motivation to enroll in it, and even if a person becomes enlightened by their access to the material it's a case by case basis. That definitely won't be turning the tide on these issues.

I'm only interested in midi implementation through Remote, and an overwhelming bulk of that information is within the public domain if you study the included remote scripts, consult the online reference of the language they use in those remote scripts, and understand the fact finding power of combining text string injection and bare bones error handling. The entire scope of that material falls in the public domain, not under the NDA. The higher level code that communicates with the remote scripts is proprietary, but not the scripts that you can freely edit to make your own or the language they contain.

I'm a big fan of people thinking for themselves. I support your decision, just make sure you remember that some secrets aren't secret or shouldn't be.
:reason: :ignition: :re: :refillpacker: Enhanced by DataBridge v5

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zakalwe
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Joined: 22 Jan 2015

14 May 2015

i hope they open it up more in future.  having NDAs is off-putting to hobbyist programmers, as is the lack of ability to self-publish for non-profit.  but i'm sure there are lots of issues around that.

apple give me the core audio SDK with xcode and various frameworks support it.  in terms of access that's pretty unbeatable.

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Lizard
Posts: 464
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14 May 2015

The NDA can be off-putting.  I'm not exactly sure why though.  I mean it is as simple as filling out an online form and then they grant you access to the SDK and the Dev Forums.  That is about it.  I've seen a lot of people think there is more to it than that to get access to it but really that's about it.  You have to only have a company in name.  After you provide the info and they accept (was fairly quick as I recall) you are on your way.  The hobbyist shouldn't feel put off by this learning process.  I have started a half dozen projects or so and haven't released a one yet.  Soon I hope.  :)

Now since the only means of distribution is the Propellerhead store front I think there is some legalities there which is why one has to have a company with the proper documentation.  This does (in most cases) cost some amount to the developer but still is only a choice.  If you want it to go to testing and placed in the store front then you will have to.  Still... now that you have a legit company and want to release a product does not mean you have to charge for it.  If you are a Robin Hood of sorts you can put a free price on the ole tagger if you chose.  Or charge $9... or $99 if you like.  The developer sets the price.  Of course Propellerhead wants you to charge for it.  They make money when you make money.  Their share of $0 is $0.  ;)

The largest reason I believe the NDA is in place is that it is a developing technology.  They want all discussions on how it is working and the direction of where it is to go to be in one place where they can monitor and provide input to control the process.  Misunderstood information being talked about in say KVR forums could probably end up being more damaging to the credibility of the SDK than anything.  Also, the developer in some cases may have advanced knowledge of upcoming SDK's that should not be talked about until they are final.  It would be embarrassing to have people openly talk about a feature that could not come to fruition.  For these reasons I believe the NDA is and should be in place. However, I think it would be nice for Propellerhead to allow discussions of certain things and educate people on if the company considers these things NDA violations.  I would love to see people talk about some things as I do believe it would build a greater confidence in people to attempt development.

Bottom line.... apply for development.  It costs $0.  Yeah you might not be able to discuss it on ReasonTalk but at least you know what it is all about and there is another place you can speak freely.

avasopht
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Posts: 3932
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

14 May 2015

Registering and signing an NDA will be the least of your worries as development is an involving process.

In my experience anyone who is deterred by such a simple procedure is more likely to not release anything anyway.

Doers just get on with it and move forward

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zakalwe
Posts: 447
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

14 May 2015

thanks, but it's probably something i'll come back to.  i'm looking into JUCE/Iplug right now as i can get a lot of info on these.

KEVMOVE02
Posts: 267
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

14 May 2015

A company, whether it is privately owned or publicly traded, has an obligation to protect its intellectual property, which in this case, includes the SDK and any associated forums. While individuals may prefer an "open source" approach to product development, it is of little benefit to Propellerhead to reveal the "secret ingredients" to developers without restricting how they use this info. Since Propellerhead doesn't charge an upfront fee, signing an NDA is the price of admission. 

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Raveshaper
Posts: 1089
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

14 May 2015

It's off putting because of how closed off it is. In 3 to 4 minutes, a brief tutorial in Live can show you how to do something quickly using less commonly used menus and GUI panels. In reason, you can't even talk about how to do the same thing.
:reason: :ignition: :re: :refillpacker: Enhanced by DataBridge v5

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ScuzzyEye
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15 May 2015

QwaizanG wrote:It's off putting because of how closed off it is. In 3 to 4 minutes, a brief tutorial in Live can show you how to do something quickly using less commonly used menus and GUI panels. In reason, you can't even talk about how to do the same thing.
Without signing up you don't know the quality of the documentation, or what type of support is offered to developers.

And as for sharing the information about how to do things. What use is it to share with people who can't do anything with it?

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zakalwe
Posts: 447
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

15 May 2015

QwaizanG wrote:It's off putting because of how closed off it is. In 3 to 4 minutes, a brief tutorial in Live can show you how to do something quickly using less commonly used menus and GUI panels. In reason, you can't even talk about how to do the same thing.
ScuzzyEye wrote: Without signing up you don't know the quality of the documentation, or what type of support is offered to developers.

And as for sharing the information about how to do things. What use is it to share with people who can't do anything with it?
if you look around the net there are so many resources for developing audio plugins for other formats.

http://www.martin-finke.de/blog/

etc.  but that's just not possible with RE because of the NDA.  i appreciate that it's aimed at commercial development and they've been pretty cool about letting any one sign up but the benefit of moving to an open SDK should be obvious.  they could let us GPL our code as well, so other developers could benefit.

just to be clear i'm not batch about their dev program, just that if they wish to encourage the sort of impressive freeware software base that the more open dev platforms enjoy this state of affairs will need to change at some point.

avasopht
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15 May 2015

zakalwe, you can open source YOUR code, just strip out the SDK specific parts (which, if you've written your code properly will not be seen anywhere in your actual DSP code anyway).

Here's why I think people make excuses. When I wanted to get a license to develop for the Nintendo DS do you know what my requirements were? A registered company that was not in your home that was only accessible by people working under their NDA (ruling out shared offices). Oh and I had to remove my old Nintendo Game Boy development tutorials, and $50k+ costs to release a title worldwide.

Not only are there no public tutorials for the system, working for these consoles is vastly different to anything you'll find anywhere else unlike Rack Extensions where platform independent DSP code can be taken straight from VST to RE (C/C++ code).

Sooooo when I see people complaining about a little NDA I just can't see that as coming from someone who is serious enough to complete anything anyway if they can't even complete a simple form.

--

I've been there myself, seeing something as a bigger hurdle than it actually was. Failing to go in a simple direction because it seemed too daunting, or because I couldn't find a tutorial (and surely my way of doing it must be wrong).

Yeah I've made many stupid mistakes, and most of them were all to do with failing to take action because of some perceive obstacle.

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zakalwe
Posts: 447
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

15 May 2015

um, i'm looking to code plugins not DSP stuff.  so i take it there are no high level frameworks at all then?

avasopht
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Posts: 3932
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

15 May 2015

zakalwe wrote:um, i'm looking to code plugins not DSP stuff.  so i take it there are no high level frameworks at all then?
Plugins use DSP (digital signal processing).

Regarding high level frameworks, I'd say just sign up and all will be revealed as the answer likely delves into NDA territory, but I think you'll find the answer rather satisfactory ;)

The worst that can happen is that you spend 1 minute signing up, which is probably less than the amount of time you've spent typing reasons for not signing up :D

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