R8 users: what's your opinion of the browser now?

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jfrichards
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02 Apr 2015

JiggeryPokery wrote:...if I search for a patch, only the search results will subsequently appear for that device - there's no way of clearing the search, so I have to go back to the main folder manually through the entire directory structure.
Have you tried hitting the left arrow back button in the browser at the far top left?

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JiggeryPokery
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02 Apr 2015

selig wrote: The mouse browsing issue is fine with me, as I tend to use the arrow keys when browsing a long list of patches, or better yet the patch browse buttons on my old Axiom 61 since that's where my hands typically are when auditioning patches. The mouse would be the slowest of the three possibilities for me even with single click browsing (and I understand why that's not doable). That's my opinion on the new browser, fwiw.

I've not done the "accidental device creation" for WEEKS now. Takes practice, but so does anything new as well as anything worthwhile IMO!

:)

The accidental device creation is slowly reducing and I expect I'll be cured of it soon, that's fairy nuff. ;)

But the thing with the browsing is it's only ever faster if you know what you want in advance.

If you have 10 patches in a folder and you want to check just patch one and patch ten:

In Reason 7, you had

1. Open browser.
2. Click patch 1. (immediately playable)
3. Click patch 10. (immediately playable)


In Reason 8
1. Open browser
2. Click patch patch 1 (nothing happens)
3. Click Load (now playable)
4. Click patch 10 (nothing happens)
5. Click Load

So in that mouse scenario, where is the workflow improvement? Just checking 2 patches requires two extra clicks.

Now, checking those two patches with a keyboard, you'd have

1. Open browser
2. Click patch 1 (nothing happens)
3. Click Load (now playable)
3. down arrow (playable)
4. down arrow (playable)
5. down arrow (playable)
6. down arrow (playable)
7. down arrow (playable)
8. down arrow (playable)
9. down arrow (playable)
10. down arrow (playable)
11. down arrow (at last, patch 10!! playable)

There is no reason whatsoever, Giles, that single mouse click cannot load the patch like it used to do in the old browser, otherwise why do each of those interim patches load with just one keyboard arrow command?

Sorry, but that's nonsensical, imho.

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JiggeryPokery
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02 Apr 2015

JiggeryPokery wrote:...if I search for a patch, only the search results will subsequently appear for that device - there's no way of clearing the search, so I have to go back to the main folder manually through the entire directory structure.
jfrichards wrote:
Have you tried hitting the left arrow back button in the browser at the far top left?
d'oh!

Damn this dodgy grey on grey non-colour scheme! :P

I was looking at the Up folder icon, which is unavailable. But the grey for the two forward/back icons are nearly identical. The forward icon is light grey, unavailable, the back icon is a marginally darker grey, that's not obviously different unless one is looking directly at it.

Does everyone else have better cones for differentiating shades of grey than me?


Image 

And of course, PH make it worse because the bright orange header further works to lead the eye from the barely undifferentiated greys
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selig
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02 Apr 2015

selig wrote: The mouse browsing issue is fine with me, as I tend to use the arrow keys when browsing a long list of patches, or better yet the patch browse buttons on my old Axiom 61 since that's where my hands typically are when auditioning patches. The mouse would be the slowest of the three possibilities for me even with single click browsing (and I understand why that's not doable). That's my opinion on the new browser, fwiw.

I've not done the "accidental device creation" for WEEKS now. Takes practice, but so does anything new as well as anything worthwhile IMO!

:)
JiggeryPokery wrote:

The accidental device creation is slowly reducing and I expect I'll be cured of it soon, that's fairy nuff. ;)

But the thing with the browsing is it's only ever faster if you know what you want in advance.

If you have 10 patches in a folder and you want to check just patch one and patch ten:

In Reason 7, you had

1. Open browser.
2. Click patch 1. (immediately playable)
3. Click patch 10. (immediately playable)


In Reason 8
1. Open browser
2. Click patch patch 1 (nothing happens)
3. Click Load (now playable)
4. Click patch 10 (nothing happens)
5. Click Load

So in that mouse scenario, where is the workflow improvement? Just checking 2 patches requires two extra clicks.

Now, checking those two patches with a keyboard, you'd have

1. Open browser
2. Click patch 1 (nothing happens)
3. Click Load (now playable)
3. down arrow (playable)
4. down arrow (playable)
5. down arrow (playable)
6. down arrow (playable)
7. down arrow (playable)
8. down arrow (playable)
9. down arrow (playable)
10. down arrow (playable)
11. down arrow (at last, patch 10!! playable)

There is no reason whatsoever, Giles, that single mouse click cannot load the patch like it used to do in the old browser, otherwise why do each of those interim patches load with just one keyboard arrow command?

Sorry, but that's nonsensical, imho.
It was explained to me to be because the new browser also browses samples, and a single click interface makes it more difficult to select multiple samples without loading the first one. I would think Reason could tell the difference between samples an patches though… ;)
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selig
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02 Apr 2015

JiggeryPokery wrote:...if I search for a patch, only the search results will subsequently appear for that device - there's no way of clearing the search, so I have to go back to the main folder manually through the entire directory structure.
jfrichards wrote:
Have you tried hitting the left arrow back button in the browser at the far top left?
JiggeryPokery wrote:
d'oh!

Damn this dodgy grey on grey non-colour scheme! :P

I was looking at the Up folder icon, which is unavailable. But the grey for the two forward/back icons are nearly identical. The forward icon is light grey, unavailable, the back icon is a marginally darker grey, that's not obviously different unless one is looking directly at it.

Does everyone else have better cones for differentiating shades of grey than me?

Image
JiggeryPokery wrote: 

And of course, PH make it worse because the bright orange header further works to lead the eye from the barely undifferentiated greys
I'm with you on the grey thing - I function SO much more fluidly when color is used to lead the eye. To the point that when an icon changes color with an upgrade, I'm totally lost for the first few days because I scan for COLOR first, then icons, then text. I can't be alone in this… ;(
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EnochLight
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02 Apr 2015

JiggeryPokery wrote: If you have 10 patches in a folder and you want to check just patch one and patch ten:

In Reason 7, you had

1. Open browser.
2. Click patch 1. (immediately playable)
3. Click patch 10. (immediately playable)


In Reason 8
1. Open browser
2. Click patch patch 1 (nothing happens)
3. Click Load (now playable)
4. Click patch 10 (nothing happens)
5. Click Load
Actually, this is how I do it in Reason 8

1. Open browser
2. Drag/drop patch 1 to device (immediately playable)
3. Drag/drop patch 10 to device (immediately playable)

Simples.  

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lowpryo
Posts: 452
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02 Apr 2015

JiggeryPokery wrote: If you have 10 patches in a folder and you want to check just patch one and patch ten:

In Reason 7, you had

1. Open browser.
2. Click patch 1. (immediately playable)
3. Click patch 10. (immediately playable)


In Reason 8
1. Open browser
2. Click patch patch 1 (nothing happens)
3. Click Load (now playable)
4. Click patch 10 (nothing happens)
5. Click Load
actually it's just this:

In Reason 8
1. Open browser
2. Double-click patch patch 1 (now playable)
3. Double-click patch 10 (now playable)

you can argue that the change from single to double click was not an improvement, and I agree. but it's hardly a hassle.

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joeyluck
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02 Apr 2015

I still can't get used to it :\

I initially liked the idea of the new Browser, but it just doesn't work well for me.

Maybe Reason 9 will have have a Reason Preference of modal or non-modal browser...?
"Classic mode." It sounds like they have optimized things pretty well with the 8.2 update, so maybe possible?

When I load a patch, I want the browser to go away.
With Reason 8, that's always an additional click or button press every time I want to get rid of the browser.
Maybe there could be an option for this?
I will forever be creating new devices on accident. "The browser is open, which must mean something must have browse focus, right?" Nope.

I like having my Rack Extensions in the floating Tool Window so I can move it where I please. Maybe the browser can be floating? Sometimes I'm working on the right side of the rack, and want to drag something there. My tool window is usually on the right...

So, in summary, what I would like is an option for the browser to close after I load a patch and I would like it to be detachable. Or just have a "classic" mode.






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selig
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02 Apr 2015

joeyluck wrote:I still can't get used to it :\

I initially liked the idea of the new Browser, but it just doesn't work well for me.

Maybe Reason 9 will have have a Reason Preference of modal or non-modal browser...?
"Classic mode." It sounds like they have optimized things pretty well with the 8.2 update, so maybe possible?

When I load a patch, I want the browser to go away.
With Reason 8, that's always an additional click or button press every time I want to get rid of the browser.
Maybe there could be an option for this?
I will forever be creating new devices on accident. "The browser is open, which must mean something must have browse focus, right?" Nope.

I like having my Rack Extensions in the floating Tool Window so I can move it where I please. Maybe the browser can be floating? Sometimes I'm working on the right side of the rack, and want to drag something there. My tool window is usually on the right...

So, in summary, what I would like is an option for the browser to close after I load a patch and I would like it to be detachable. Or just have a "classic" mode.
I can't see how a classic mode would work, but the way to tell if the browser is active is to look for that annoying orange color (not THE annoying orange). Once I clued myself into that color it has not been a problem for me. In other words, you sound like you "see" the browser being open as "being active" - I "see" the orange color as "being active". 

I'm not sure a "close after browsing" option would be "clean" and work any more as expected. Just as soon as you choose that preference, you'll have an occasion where you DON'T want the first loaded patch to close the browser, wanting instead to look further (requiring more work from you at this stage). 

These days my left hand is VERY quick to instinctively close the browser with the F3 key - don't even think of it anymore, when I'm done I just close it.

And remember, the browser isn't for just patches, so should selecting a device ALSO close the browser (what if you want to select a different patch for it)? OR selecting a sample or audio file? 

Sorry I have more questions than answers today… ;)


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tiker01
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02 Apr 2015

joeyluck wrote:I still can't get used to it :\

I like having my Rack Extensions in the floating Tool Window so I can move it where I please. Maybe the browser can be floating? Sometimes I'm working on the right side of the rack, and want to drag something there. My tool window is usually on the right...
Yeah a browser that can be attached to any and all window and can float too would be nice, but on my 15.6" screen I wouldn`t use it like that. However, I don`t see why PH could not reintroduce the device pane into the tool window. This would temporary solve the issue that the browser is tied to the Sequncer.
    
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Iggster
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02 Apr 2015

I'm surprised no one has picked up on Majestik Monkey's comment regarding the tempo lock while browsing samples and Rex files.... I'm even more surprised that it's still not sorted in R8.2! I totally agree with MM's comment that this is something that is taken for granted in other DAWs and even something we had for a while until it was removed for absolutely no apparent reason!

hydlide

02 Apr 2015

JiggeryPokery wrote: If you have 10 patches in a folder and you want to check just patch one and patch ten:

In Reason 7, you had

1. Open browser.
2. Click patch 1. (immediately playable)
3. Click patch 10. (immediately playable)


In Reason 8
1. Open browser
2. Click patch patch 1 (nothing happens)
3. Click Load (now playable)
4. Click patch 10 (nothing happens)
5. Click Load
EnochLight wrote:
Actually, this is how I do it in Reason 8

1. Open browser
2. Drag/drop patch 1 to device (immediately playable)
3. Drag/drop patch 10 to device (immediately playable)

Simples.  
Just curious, how do you sound design with Reason 8 using multiple tracks? I have gotten rid of due to this. So I am asking ;)

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joeyluck
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02 Apr 2015

joeyluck wrote:I still can't get used to it :\

I initially liked the idea of the new Browser, but it just doesn't work well for me.

Maybe Reason 9 will have have a Reason Preference of modal or non-modal browser...?
"Classic mode." It sounds like they have optimized things pretty well with the 8.2 update, so maybe possible?

When I load a patch, I want the browser to go away.
With Reason 8, that's always an additional click or button press every time I want to get rid of the browser.
Maybe there could be an option for this?
I will forever be creating new devices on accident. "The browser is open, which must mean something must have browse focus, right?" Nope.

I like having my Rack Extensions in the floating Tool Window so I can move it where I please. Maybe the browser can be floating? Sometimes I'm working on the right side of the rack, and want to drag something there. My tool window is usually on the right...

So, in summary, what I would like is an option for the browser to close after I load a patch and I would like it to be detachable. Or just have a "classic" mode.
selig wrote:
I can't see how a classic mode would work, but the way to tell if the browser is active is to look for that annoying orange color (not THE annoying orange). Once I clued myself into that color it has not been a problem for me. In other words, you sound like you "see" the browser being open as "being active" - I "see" the orange color as "being active". 

I'm not sure a "close after browsing" option would be "clean" and work any more as expected. Just as soon as you choose that preference, you'll have an occasion where you DON'T want the first loaded patch to close the browser, wanting instead to look further (requiring more work from you at this stage). 

These days my left hand is VERY quick to instinctively close the browser with the F3 key - don't even think of it anymore, when I'm done I just close it.

And remember, the browser isn't for just patches, so should selecting a device ALSO close the browser (what if you want to select a different patch for it)? OR selecting a sample or audio file? 

Sorry I have more questions than answers today… ;)

You make many excellent points. I am aware of the orange, I just can't get used to it! It might just take several versions of Reason (that I feel required to have) with this browser in place...for me to get over my habits I've built from almost 15 years with Reason.

Maybe that could be the difference between single click and double click?
A single click on a patch loads the patch. A double click on a patch loads the patch and closes the browser? This way you could also use the cursor keys to load patches and keep the browser open... 

I dunno. I understand it is a different beast and trying to get it to behave like the old while still being the new is difficult.

Maybe another option could be:
"'Drag 'n Drop'/'Create...' as only ways to create new device or patch" 
With that option on, the only way you could create a new device would be either via "Create..." or dragging and dropping a device or patch into the rack.

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EnochLight
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02 Apr 2015

Iggster wrote:I'm surprised no one has picked up on Majestik Monkey's comment regarding the tempo lock while browsing samples and Rex files.... I'm even more surprised that it's still not sorted in R8.2! I totally agree with MM's comment that this is something that is taken for granted in other DAWs and even something we had for a while until it was removed for absolutely no apparent reason!
I'm afraid you're mistaken. We've never had sample-auto sync to tempo in Reason. Ever. Only Rex files did that (and they still do in a Dr. Octo).
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selig
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02 Apr 2015

Iggster wrote:I'm surprised no one has picked up on Majestik Monkey's comment regarding the tempo lock while browsing samples and Rex files.... I'm even more surprised that it's still not sorted in R8.2! I totally agree with MM's comment that this is something that is taken for granted in other DAWs and even something we had for a while until it was removed for absolutely no apparent reason!
EnochLight wrote: I'm afraid you're mistaken. We've never had sample-auto sync to tempo in Reason. Ever. Only Rex files did that (and they still do in a Dr. Octo).
Yep, that's what I've observed as well.
I assume you mean when browsing for Dr Octa Rex, right? I always hit the RUN button or just hit play, so this has never been an issue for me! I audition all REX files in tempo this way, either on their own or in the track (super handy, naturally). 

I don't use AUTO (PLAY) in the browser because I don't like it playing all those long audio files even after I've put them in the time line! That's probably what is causing the different experiences here IMO. :)
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EnochLight
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02 Apr 2015

hydlide wrote:Just curious, how do you sound design with Reason 8 using multiple tracks? I have gotten rid of due to this. So I am asking ;)
I'm not sure I understand your question.  I do it the same way I did in Reason 7 and previous.  Well, actually a lot faster now that I can drag and drop samples.

You got rid of Reason 8?  Ugh... I spent a week in Reason 7's browser and felt like pulling my hair out.


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JiggeryPokery
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03 Apr 2015

selig wrote:
It was explained to me to be because the new browser also browses samples, and a single click interface makes it more difficult to select multiple samples without loading the first one. I would think Reason could tell the difference between samples an patches though… ;)

We've been through this before: that's the line they sell you to convince you, and it seems you've accepted it, and thus allowed them to get away with making such an unnecessary change.

Are you suggesting the old browser did not also browse samples?!! ;)

So once again: in the old browser we held Ctrl and single clicked samples to load multiple samples, hitting Enter/OK once all samples were selected, which is the standard Windows browser behaviour. The new Reason browser is thus non-standard. By implementing it the way they have, effectively killing single-click mouse browser support—even though they've kept single keyboard selection!—they've actually made it harder to load multiple samples, as (unless this is fixed in 8.2, I've not checked) it's removed the ability to load samples in selection order, which is incredibly useful for large NNXT samplesets. In R7 the samples were loaded into NNXT in the order you clicked them. This is very important behaviour for working with groups. PH keep insisting and telling me it's improved workflow: this is what I object to, this blanket marketing of it as being better. Nope. It's maybe better in some scenarios.

There are bits of the new browser I do really like, and I am using them, but it's only really better if, as I say, you kind of know what you want in advance, or just dragging a few samples into Kong or ReDrum, or unzoned samples to NNXT. Put together massive RR sets like Republik in NNXT in R8 then its lack of ctrl+single-click ordered sample loading completely and totally mitigates any supposed workflow enhancement from having the browser always open and its drag-n-drop ability. The time saving just dragging the samples across are lost by having to manually reorder hundreds of samples one at a time into the appropriate groups in the NNXT sample window. In R7 this took seconds, in R8 it takes minutes. So can someone please explain how what took seconds now takes minutes is improved workflow?!

There are one or two people here who won't hear a word against the browser, but the issues with it for content producers is a demonstrable fact from three months experience working with large sets.



softska
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03 Apr 2015

Iggster wrote:I'm surprised no one has picked up on Majestik Monkey's comment regarding the tempo lock while browsing samples and Rex files.... I'm even more surprised that it's still not sorted in R8.2! I totally agree with MM's comment that this is something that is taken for granted in other DAWs and even something we had for a while until it was removed for absolutely no apparent reason!
Which DAW? Logic and Live can't playback Rex files in tempo either despite begging for years from users. I don't have experience with all the DAWs out there but I doubt many are afaik.

Echolight is correct. Honestly the only thing I can recall able to preview rex in time is Transfuser and probably some DAW i don't use. Still the v7 browsing method made it easier.
JiggeryPokery wrote:The new Reason browser is thus non-standard.
This. I miss all my system file dialog. Do find it a bit funny everything is forced thru the sidebar browser while save dialog is still the system one...



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JiggeryPokery
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03 Apr 2015

softska wrote: Which DAW? Logic and Live can't playback Rex files in tempo either despite begging for years from users. I don't have experience with all the DAWs out there but I doubt many are afaik.

Those other DAW users were probably begging for it because Reason was able to do it. "Well Reason can do it so you must be able to!!!!1!" ;)

Of course, it then beggars belief when PH cease effectively support for their own format in R8. They stopped tempo synced REX browsing because the Live didn't support it!? Well, if they want to turn Reason into a Live clone, I guess that's a job well done, then! :s0106:

Beyond intial song starting, where perhaps it's not really an issue, as arguably one is perhaps less concerned about a specific tempo when just looking for an inspirational loop, it genuinely has made browsing for loops for well in progress track at a somewhat farcical experience.

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EnochLight
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03 Apr 2015

softska wrote: Which DAW? Logic and Live can't playback Rex files in tempo either despite begging for years from users. I don't have experience with all the DAWs out there but I doubt many are afaik.
JiggeryPokery wrote:
Of course,
JiggeryPokery wrote: it then beggars belief when PH cease effectively support for their own format in R8.
JiggeryPokery wrote:
JiggeryPokery wrote:They stopped tempo synced REX browsing
JiggeryPokery wrote:
JiggeryPokery wrote:because
JiggeryPokery wrote:the Live didn't support it!? Well, if they want to turn Reason into a Live clone, I guess that's a job well done, then! :s0106:
Errr.. wait - what?  I'm confused, Matt.  They did NOT stop tempo synced REX browsing in Reason 8:

https://youtu.be/EleqDc_3d5Q
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JiggeryPokery
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03 Apr 2015

That video does not show R7-style browsing, though, does it? It's showing a full load, so of course the DrOctoRex is synced to Reason tempo.

Select a REX file in the browser and press play - it's the original REX tempo, not the songfile tempo. (Now you have got me thinking though about whether R7 behaviour was actually the same here... funny how one forgets this shit so quickly ;) . Still, I do seem to recall it was a pleasure browsing loops while a track was playing, and now I personally find it rather odd).


Edit - I think something may well have been fixed here between the original R8 release and now. Whether it was in 8.1 or now in 8.2 I can't say. The play icon in the browser does play the REX loop at songfile bpm speed provided the song is in playback. If it's not in playback it will play at it's natural bpm. I'm fairly sure that wasn't the case in R8.0, because several other people mentioned it on PUF at the time, and I recall looking at that myself and thinking "wtf". Playing with it now, it doesn't feel as intuitive or smooth, but yeah, it sort of does tempo sync if you kick it hard enough ;)

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EnochLight
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03 Apr 2015

JiggeryPokery wrote:That video does not show browsing, though, does it? It's showing a full load, so of course the DrOctoRex is synced to Reason tempo.

Select a REX file in the browser and press play - it's the original REX tempo, not the songfile tempo. (Now you have got me thinking though about whether R7 behaviour was actually the same here... funny how one forgets this shit so quickly ;) . Still, I do seem to recall it was a pleasure browsing loops while a track was playing, and now I personally find it rather odd)
Err... that video is most certainly showing browsing as far as I can tell.  The Dr. Octo has browse focus (notice the orange highlight on the device's folder icon).  I'm arrowing through patches, dragging and dropping, selecting, etc - trying to switch browsing methods up.  This is how one would typically browse via the old browser, isn't it?  But yeah - it's been so long since I used the old browser I honestly can't remember LOL!!

But I did have the track playing, and even switched tempos to demonstrate that the rex files are indeed following.


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JiggeryPokery
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03 Apr 2015

Heh, I don't disagree with selig that one has to get used to the new regime. And frankly I don't even use loops that often ;)

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EnochLight
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03 Apr 2015

JiggeryPokery wrote:Playing with it now, it doesn't feel as intuitive or smooth, but yeah, it sort of does tempo sync if you kick it hard enough ;)
Hmmm.. I suppose it's a matter of perspective.  Feels just as smooth to me as it did in previous versions, and no need to kick it or anything.  I mean, watch the video - I created a Dr. Octo, started playback, browsed, auditioned various rex files... no worries.  

I did just try it with the main transport stopped, as well (see the video below).  You do have to "run" the Dr. Octo for things to sync, so maybe that's your issue?

https://youtu.be/8yn_TWKuHh8
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JiggeryPokery
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03 Apr 2015

Yeah, maybe. I've only moved properly to R8.x in the past few weeks, so I guess perhaps I should STFU and get on with it ;)

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