Q: Never touch the master fader?

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selig
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31 Mar 2015

miahluvdd wrote:So, Selig, with the setup as you posted in the pic above, what is the purpose of the Gain Re before the Ozone? To have another master, master fader? Or for the meters? Or something else?
Metering mostly, so I can be certain of the max gain reduction Ozone will give. :)
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miahluvdd
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31 Mar 2015

miahluvdd wrote:So, Selig, with the setup as you posted in the pic above, what is the purpose of the Gain Re before the Ozone? To have another master, master fader? Or for the meters? Or something else?
selig wrote:
Metering mostly, so I can be certain of the max gain reduction Ozone will give. :)
Got it!

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Tincture
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31 Mar 2015

selig wrote: But here's how I've been doing it:
Image
Here's how I do side chain filtering on the Master Compressor (LOVE it even more with this feature!):
Image 
Hi Giles, can we have a front view of the last pic please? So we can see where your cross-over freq is on the Stereo Imager? I'm wondering how much low-end you're not letting through to the master compressor.

Also, I do still use Master Inserts (not as many as I used to, as I realised I was killing many of my mixes) and currently have the SSL Master Comp pre-Master Section Inserts, with Ozone after the Master Section.

If I wanted to adopt your side-chaining as above obviously I'd need to press the "Master Inserts Pre-Comp" button... so if I then just added any desired inserts after the Master Section (I use Ctrl Room Out) but pre-Ozone, that would be the same deal as I do now wouldn't it? I.e. Side-chained Master Comp would be pre-Inserts. I'm sure it's obvious but it's always nice to be reassured about these things :)  

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selig
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31 Mar 2015

selig wrote: But here's how I've been doing it:
Image
Here's how I do side chain filtering on the Master Compressor (LOVE it even more with this feature!):
Image 
Voivod wrote:
Hi Giles, can we have a front view of the last pic please? So we can see where your cross-over freq is on the Stereo Imager? I'm wondering how much low-end you're not letting through to the master compressor.
Like most things, it varies! I set it for a certain result, not a certain frequency. It ends up anywhere from 100 to 500 Hz or so. My setup is to raise the frequency until kicks and snares are both achieving equal gain reduction. That's the purpose of it IMO, to allow the compressor to respond equally to all drums/instruments. It's pretty easy to see the effects of raising the frequency by watching the gain reduction meter. 
Voivod wrote:Also, I do still use Master Inserts (not as many as I used to, as I realised I was killing many of my mixes) and currently have the SSL Master Comp pre-Master Section Inserts, with Ozone after the Master Section.

If I wanted to adopt your side-chaining as above obviously I'd need to press the "Master Inserts Pre-Comp" button... so if I then just added any desired inserts after the Master Section (I use Ctrl Room Out) but pre-Ozone, that would be the same deal as I do now wouldn't it? I.e. Side-chained Master Comp would be pre-Inserts. I'm sure it's obvious but it's always nice to be reassured about these things :)  
Yes, I believe so according to how I read your description. Forgot to mention that using side chain filtering was another key driver of me putting the mastering devices AFTER the Master Section of the mixer.

:)
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Tincture
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01 Apr 2015

Thanks Giles. It's daft isn't it? How one simple sentence can suddenly provoke a light bulb moment in the unenlightened (me)... "so that all drums/instruments are reacting equally to the compressor" ... such a simple logical concept but one that I've never consciously thought about... It makes me think about what I should be aiming for in my mixes (even though it seems so obvious now), but rarely achieve. My beats are usually the loudest thing in my mixes and so probably almost solely determine the master comps actions and therefore are probably ducking (pumping) my whole mix (not always a bad thing I s'pose, but sometimes!). Also I can probably take that further and say the snare tends to be loudest of the beats... :/

So, from one simple sentence, I have a new aim for my level/compression regime :)

inmatus
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01 Apr 2015

All been said but maybe it can be pointed out that it can be a good idea to press "inter sample limit" button on Ozone to enable true peak limiting.
Not sure how much of inter sample peaks you get "in reality" that can create distortion but why not take that step since it is there?
If you dither, why not mark the "limit peaks" in the dithering section of Ozone.

Then for me it wasnt clear if the distortion was when listening to the mix in Reason or on the end result -the bounced WAV or encoded mp3. If it is the end result, the headroom you have is very important.
When generating an mp3 they advice to have -1db headroom. It got away with -0,4 at least. It all depends on how your music is distributed. If you do it yourself you can just use your ears and listen to the result.
If you upload the wav to a service -like CD baby and what not to go for a digital release- I think you can get a bad surprise if you have too little head room.

I master in Ozone 6 so I don't use any compression on master bus in Reason. In Ozone 6 you have multiband compression, side chain and good stuff that you otherwise have to build yourself in Reason.
So.. I am careful with the compression and levels prior bouncing. I use Measure loudness meter RE in the end chain to monitor peaks and LUFS. Thats all
When you are doing things on the master you change more or less all sounds you have. I think it is better to work with the mix without any master bus effects at all and change the individual channels to get as close you can to what you want - like doing compression on drums until it sounds great instead of using a limiter/compression on all or major parts of the mix to get the drum sound you want. 
You bounce that without any limiting or SSL compression and with appropriate head room. Listen to it in your car, headphones, stereo. Go back and remix. When you finally are happy you do the extras on the stereo channels -like mastering effects in Reason or outside in Ozone Wavelab.


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Tincture
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01 Apr 2015

Don't get me wrong I do process my elements individually so that they are "balanced", and I rarely use a Master Comp other than the SSL (max ~1 to 4 dB GR) these days (I used to think another - different speed comp - was "glueing" my mix but found most times it was just killing my drums), but I do think that even after bus compression I'm still leaving my beats sticking up (louder) more than my instruments. 

From now on I will endeavour to get the Master Comp reacting equally to my BD, Snare and at least the loudest instrument.

I tend to be very "fluid" with how I mix and I'm realising from Selig and others that the more structured and mindful I can be the greater the chance I'll have of being at least consistent, if not better.

I'm no noob but I have been stubborn in keeping my Reason sessions free and fun. Now I don't see why they can't be more structured and still fun ;)

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01 Apr 2015

I mix in mono using only the pan knobs. If I have to move a fader I use some of those heavy duty rubber gloves or call in Mrs. Motuscott, who may or may not exist.
Who’s using the royal plural now baby? 🧂

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selig
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01 Apr 2015

inmatus wrote:All been said but maybe it can be pointed out that it can be a good idea to press "inter sample limit" button on Ozone to enable true peak limiting.
Not sure how much of inter sample peaks you get "in reality" that can create distortion but why not take that step since it is there?
If you dither, why not mark the "limit peaks" in the dithering section of Ozone.

Then for me it wasnt clear if the distortion was when listening to the mix in Reason or on the end result -the bounced WAV or encoded mp3. If it is the end result, the headroom you have is very important.
When generating an mp3 they advice to have -1db headroom. It got away with -0,4 at least. It all depends on how your music is distributed. If you do it yourself you can just use your ears and listen to the result.
One of the reasons to leave headroom is that some players react differently close to the clipping point - you won't necessarily hear this when you listen on your system.
inmatus wrote:If you upload the wav to a service -like CD baby and what not to go for a digital release- I think you can get a bad surprise if you have too little head room.

I master in Ozone 6 so I don't use any compression on master bus in Reason. In Ozone 6 you have multiband compression, side chain and good stuff that you otherwise have to build yourself in Reason.
Mix bus compression ("glue") and what Ozone does (mastering) are two different things IMO. Since I come from the SSL school of thought, the master compressor is a MIX tool, not a mastering tool IMO. For me, the master compressor is not about levels or loudness, it's about a 'sound' that I love!   ;)
inmatus wrote:So.. I am careful with the compression and levels prior bouncing.
 

I assume you're not talking about master compression here?
inmatus wrote:I use Measure loudness meter RE in the end chain to monitor peaks and LUFS. Thats all
When you are doing things on the master you change more or less all sounds you have. I think it is better to work with the mix without any master bus effects at all and change the individual channels to get as close you can to what you want - like doing compression on drums until it sounds great instead of using a limiter/compression on all or major parts of the mix to get the drum sound you want. 
I do the exact same thing - THEN I add mix bus compression and enjoy the magic!   ;) No sense adding mix bus compression until you have a mix worthy of compression IMO!
inmatus wrote:You bounce that without any limiting or SSL compression and with appropriate head room. Listen to it in your car, headphones, stereo. Go back and remix. When you finally are happy you do the extras on the stereo channels -like mastering effects in Reason or outside in Ozone Wavelab.
I don't often have this luxury when working with outside clients - if I send out a mix with 6 dB headroom and NO mix bus compression at all, they don't "hear" it correctly. So I typically add my own "mockup mastering" at the end of the mix process, but I have things setup so that when I bypass that mastering everything goes back to the pre-mastering levels (3-6 dB headroom). Then when it's time to ACTUALLY master, I bounce out all mixes with NO mastering (keeping any mix bus compression in most cases), then duplicate the mastering devices as a starting point in a new file that contains all the songs (usually in Pro Tools at this point). :)
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selig
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01 Apr 2015

motuscott wrote:I mix in mono using only the pan knobs. If I have to move a fader I use some of those heavy duty rubber gloves or call in Mrs. Motuscott, who may or may not exist.
:s0230:
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inmatus
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01 Apr 2015

selig wrote:
Mix bus compression ("glue") and what Ozone does (mastering) are two different things IMO. Since I come from the SSL school of thought, the master compressor is a MIX tool, not a mastering tool IMO. For me, the master compressor is not about levels or loudness, it's about a 'sound' that I love!   ;)
Sorry for asking.. What is the difference? There is a stereo channel and you add compression to both channels.. Different compressors have different sounds but in principle, isn't it the same thing?

..
I always struggle with the music I make. Too much of everything all over the spectra ;)
Cant help it, it is an artist flaw.. or benefit depending on what you like. I often dont have to compress anything to make glue. Rather finding some good solvent ;)
Up to lately I also had the SSL on and limiter ending up in 8, 9 in LUFS prior mastering and a squeezed sound where nothing sounds "loud"
Thats the reason I lately is quite careful on not adding glue during mixing. 



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submonsterz
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01 Apr 2015

If it can move touch it when ever you feel need. Everything that's made to move should be moved even for the fun of it . I never touch it myself I had my play on it . I do it via everything to a buss channel and get my thing to where I want it there before going that far on . But we all know I'm strange and maybe a little mad . :) .

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selig
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01 Apr 2015

selig wrote:
Mix bus compression ("glue") and what Ozone does (mastering) are two different things IMO. Since I come from the SSL school of thought, the master compressor is a MIX tool, not a mastering tool IMO. For me, the master compressor is not about levels or loudness, it's about a 'sound' that I love!   ;)
inmatus wrote:
Sorry for asking.. What is the difference? There is a stereo channel and you add compression to both channels.. Different compressors have different sounds but in principle, isn't it the same thing?

..
I always struggle with the music I make. Too much of everything all over the spectra ;)
Cant help it, it is an artist flaw.. or benefit depending on what you like. I often dont have to compress anything to make glue. Rather finding some good solvent ;)
Up to lately I also had the SSL on and limiter ending up in 8, 9 in LUFS prior mastering and a squeezed sound where nothing sounds "loud"
Thats the reason I lately is quite careful on not adding glue during mixing. 

The difference between mixing and mastering IMO is that mastering is where you put everything together as a whole (or prepare a single for release), and mixing is where you make creative choices. You can use a compressor to hit a certain level (mastering), or you can use it to achieve a certain sound (mixing). That's my take on things, anyway. 

Also, the mix engineer is more a part of the creative team and the mastering engineer more a part of the technical team, again IMO. 

The rest doesn't make sense to me. IF you are limiting too much, do less (as opposed to doing none). Glue is an entirely different thing to me and has nothing to do with levels. If you're limiting the mix prior to mastering, that's like cleaning your house before the maid arrives IMO! For me, limiting has always been a mastering concept, and "glue" a mix concept.

If you're interested, try JUST compressing with the master compressor, and don't use any limiting. Again, the master compressor isn't about loudness IMO. In fact, the way I use it (slow attack, fast release) it typically reduces loudness by adding peak energy!   ;)
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lowpryo
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01 Apr 2015

selig wrote: Dither is indeed subtle, and would only affect the quieter moments making it difficult to effectively judge in anything but the quietest of rooms IMO. You can leave Ozone where it is as long as you DON'T touch the master fader (bringing this full circle!). But here's how I've been doing it:
Image
Here's how I do side chain filtering on the Master Compressor (LOVE it even more with this feature!):
Image 
 
if you wanna clean up your set-up a bit, you could use the "ctrl room out" to do your sidechain split into your master comp, and then use your master inserts for the gain/ozone you have. just a recommendation, but it ain't broke, so no need to fix it! i just think the ctrl room out is really the unsung hero of the reason rack.

inmatus
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01 Apr 2015

In my master chain I have EQ, Compressor, Exciter, Stereowith and limiter. So I put compression on in the master work. For me the difference is that I have a multiband compressor in Ozone that I just think gives better control than the SSL. Since its just me, I just have to change my t-shirt from a sparkling, flowerish t-shirt to the white boring one ;) when swapping between mixing and mastering.

Compression is reducing some stuff and boost other.. I guess limiting is more or less the same but u dont set the release time.. The attack you have.
Using the SSL.. things sound better but for sure levels are raised and hold back.. making it tighter.. and I think you will raise LUFS the more compression you put in.

What doesnt make sense to you is my music :) There is often (too) many instruments and competing with each other.. If you fill a song up with drums, percussion, maybe more than one base instrument, some guitars and vocals and mix so you can hear everything there will be very little silence and space. When I do put on the SSL and activate the Ozone RE -without actually adding any limiting except for the ceiling -that is where I can end up in 9 in LUFS
An example of a typical "me" song:

The solvent I am talking about is of course so reduce instruments. 

..but for sure.. I am no expert. This is just my personal experience


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selig
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01 Apr 2015

lowprio wrote:
selig wrote: Dither is indeed subtle, and would only affect the quieter moments making it difficult to effectively judge in anything but the quietest of rooms IMO. You can leave Ozone where it is as long as you DON'T touch the master fader (bringing this full circle!). But here's how I've been doing it:
Image
Here's how I do side chain filtering on the Master Compressor (LOVE it even more with this feature!):
Image 
lowprio wrote:  
if you wanna clean up your set-up a bit, you could use the "ctrl room out" to do your sidechain split into your master comp, and then use your master inserts for the gain/ozone you have. just a recommendation, but it ain't broke, so no need to fix it! i just think the ctrl room out is really the unsung hero of the reason rack.
That's EXACTLY what I DON'T want to do.   ;)

The idea is to filter the single BEFORE it's compressed. If you do as you suggest and use the control room out (which is already compressed, obviously), you're not only defecting the purpose but you're also adding a 64 sample delay. That delay is the opposite of "look ahead" (I call it "look behind"), and causes the compressor to react behind the audio instead of ahead. But the main idea is that you filter the PRE COMPRESSED signal before feeding it to the compressor. 

:)
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PSoames
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01 Apr 2015

submonsterz wrote:If it can move touch it when ever you feel need. :) .
Advice followed. Am now wanted in seven counties.

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selig
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01 Apr 2015

inmatus wrote:In my master chain I have EQ, Compressor, Exciter, Stereowith and limiter. So I put compression on in the master work. For me the difference is that I have a multiband compressor in Ozone that I just think gives better control than the SSL.
 

But they are two TOTALLY different things IMO. Glue isn't about "control", it's about the sound! Multiband isn't about the "sound" (many don't like the sound of multi-band), it's about control. I agree you have more control with multi band, but control isn't at all what I'm after when using the master compressor. :)
inmatus wrote:Since its just me, I just have to change my t-shirt from a sparkling, flowerish t-shirt to the white boring one ;) when swapping between mixing and mastering.

Compression is reducing some stuff and boost other.. I guess limiting is more or less the same but u dont set the release time.. The attack you have.
Using the SSL.. things sound better but for sure levels are raised and hold back.. making it tighter.. and I think you will raise LUFS the more compression you put in.
I wouldn't describe compression that way. BTW, Limiting is high ratio compressor, typically using a fast attack. You CAN raise or lower LUFS with compression - compression doesn't ALWAYS reduce dynamic range. I often use it to increase dynamic range by using a slow attack!
inmatus wrote:What doesnt make sense to you is my music :) There is often (too) many instruments and competing with each other.. If you fill a song up with drums, percussion, maybe more than one base instrument, some guitars and vocals and mix so you can hear everything there will be very little silence and space. When I do put on the SSL and activate the Ozone RE -without actually adding any limiting except for the ceiling -that is where I can end up in 9 in LUFS
An example of a typical "me" song:

The solvent I am talking about is of course so reduce instruments. 

..but for sure.. I am no expert. This is just my personal experience
Again, try JUST using compression on the mix and no limiting. Not sure what you mean by not adding limiting except for the ceiling. The main thing that matters is the amount of gain reduction - doesn't matter what the settings are if there's no gain reduction…   ;)

Cool track btw, reminds me of "The Party" theme:
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lowpryo
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01 Apr 2015

lowprio wrote:if you wanna clean up your set-up a bit, you could use the "ctrl room out" to do your sidechain split into your master comp, and then use your master inserts for the gain/ozone you have. just a recommendation, but it ain't broke, so no need to fix it! i just think the ctrl room out is really the unsung hero of the reason rack.
selig wrote:
That's EXACTLY what I DON'T want to do.   ;)

The idea is to filter the single BEFORE it's compressed. If you do as you suggest and use the control room out (which is already compressed, obviously), you're not only defecting the purpose but you're also adding a 64 sample delay. That delay is the opposite of "look ahead" (I call it "look behind"), and causes the compressor to react behind the audio instead of ahead. But the main idea is that you filter the PRE COMPRESSED signal before feeding it to the compressor. 

:)
oh yeah. good point! i was just re-iterating a method I read a while ago, but you're right, that wouldn't be good at all! you could have your "control room out" set to an unused send channel instead of the master, and put all of your mix channels and busses into that send, and then you'd essentially have a pre-master coming out of there, right?

sorry, i'm just being really silly & trivial because having mastering FX outside of the mastering section just triggers my OCD a bit. we all have our different ways of working around the rack!
 

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selig
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01 Apr 2015

lowprio wrote:if you wanna clean up your set-up a bit, you could use the "ctrl room out" to do your sidechain split into your master comp, and then use your master inserts for the gain/ozone you have. just a recommendation, but it ain't broke, so no need to fix it! i just think the ctrl room out is really the unsung hero of the reason rack.
selig wrote:
That's EXACTLY what I DON'T want to do.   ;)

The idea is to filter the single BEFORE it's compressed. If you do as you suggest and use the control room out (which is already compressed, obviously), you're not only defecting the purpose but you're also adding a 64 sample delay. That delay is the opposite of "look ahead" (I call it "look behind"), and causes the compressor to react behind the audio instead of ahead. But the main idea is that you filter the PRE COMPRESSED signal before feeding it to the compressor. 

:)
lowprio wrote:
oh yeah. good point! i was just re-iterating a method I read a while ago, but you're right, that wouldn't be good at all! you could have your "control room out" set to an unused send channel instead of the master, and put all of your mix channels and busses into that send, and then you'd essentially have a pre-master coming out of there, right?

sorry, i'm just being really silly & trivial because having mastering FX outside of the mastering section just triggers my OCD a bit. we all have our different ways of working around the rack!
 
That sounds like an even "messier" solution (using sends etc.).

To me it makes TOTAL sense to not have the mastering devices in the MIXING console!   ;)

I think a dedicated mastering area between the Master Section and the Hardware Interface would be the most logical, and would replicate the typical process better (Mix, THEN Master). But until then I've "built my own" so to speak. 

:)
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inmatus
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01 Apr 2015

Ozone -no limiting, just ceiling-means to have the Ozone in the end prior HW interface and put on the inter sample limit, the margin at 0 and threshold at zero too..
That should reduce inter sample peaks and keep the output at max 0 db. Then I set the masters in a way that there is no pushing of levels. Just too avoid distortion.


lowpryo
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01 Apr 2015

selig wrote: That sounds like an even "messier" solution (using sends etc.).

To me it makes TOTAL sense to not have the mastering devices in the MIXING console!   ;)

I think a dedicated mastering area between the Master Section and the Hardware Interface would be the most logical, and would replicate the typical process better (Mix, THEN Master). But until then I've "built my own" so to speak. 

:)
 
I guess in my mind, that "insert FX" Mastering section is exactly what you're describing. it's a separate area that can by bypassed and folded away, and then opened and tweaked when getting into the "Mastering" side of things. but I understand your point because, in your set-up, your signal is leaving the Ozone and heading right to your speakers, so in a way that does feel more "separated" and "final" than the insert section.

this is why I love Reason. the fact that we can have discussions about how we manipulate the rack in our own ways, and it's not always about the "technical" side of things, but how we perceive it.

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selig
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01 Apr 2015

inmatus wrote:Ozone -no limiting, just ceiling-means to have the Ozone in the end prior HW interface and put on the inter sample limit, the margin at 0 and threshold at zero too..
That should reduce inter sample peaks and keep the output at max 0 db. Then I set the masters in a way that there is no pushing of levels. Just too avoid distortion.
You will still get limiting if the input goes above the threshold. You can't reduce inter-sample peaks without limiting…"nothing" will happen if the signal stays below the threshold.

BTW, the output is ALWAYS at max 0 dB with Ozone (unless you use the Soft algorithm, which allows peaks to slip by in my experience), no matter where you put the other controls. 

Where is the distortion coming from that you are avoiding with this setup? 
:)
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selig
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01 Apr 2015

lowprio wrote:
selig wrote: That sounds like an even "messier" solution (using sends etc.).

To me it makes TOTAL sense to not have the mastering devices in the MIXING console!   ;)

I think a dedicated mastering area between the Master Section and the Hardware Interface would be the most logical, and would replicate the typical process better (Mix, THEN Master). But until then I've "built my own" so to speak. 

:)
lowprio wrote:  
I guess in my mind, that "insert FX" Mastering section is exactly what you're describing. it's a separate area that can by bypassed and folded away, and then opened and tweaked when getting into the "Mastering" side of things. but I understand your point because, in your set-up, your signal is leaving the Ozone and heading right to your speakers, so in a way that does feel more "separated" and "final" than the insert section.

this is why I love Reason. the fact that we can have discussions about how we manipulate the rack in our own ways, and it's not always about the "technical" side of things, but how we perceive it.
It's not called the "Mastering Section" insert, it's the MASTER section insert. Modern mix consoles have this option, and it's not used for "mastering" as far as I know.

Mastering has never traditionally been done BEFORE the signal leaves the mix console. It's done after the mix is complete (again, traditionally speaking) by a different engineer in a different room. My setup/approach is merely replicating that process, putting all mastering devices after the master fader because that's how it works IRL! ;)

Or maybe I'm just stuck in the past here?!? 

:)
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lowpryo
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01 Apr 2015

selig wrote:It's not called the "Mastering Section" insert, it's the MASTER section insert. Modern mix consoles have this option, and it's not used for "mastering" as far as I know.

Mastering has never traditionally been done BEFORE the signal leaves the mix console. It's done after the mix is complete (again, traditionally speaking) by a different engineer in a different room. My setup/approach is merely replicating that process, putting all mastering devices after the master fader because that's how it works IRL! ;)

Or maybe I'm just stuck in the past here?!? 

:)
 
you just blew my mind! I've always assumed the "Master insert" meant, it's at the end of your signal chain, so this is where you would typically "master" the track. but you're right, in this case, it just means Insert FX that are applied to your entire mix. I don't come from a hardware mixing background, so to me it's a very confusing word choice considering the context haha

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