Q: Never touch the master fader?

[Wini]

Hi Folks,

usually I don't care about a few red channel or master vu meters - despite this I'm adding about 1-2 db using the ssl master compressor and the Ozone Maximizer (which adds sometimes additional 0.5-1.0 db) and the final mix sounds always great. But on some parts of my recent song I've noticed a very ugly clipping sound.

My question is now, if I can just pull down the master fader from the default value of 0 db? I've already tried this and -2 db seems to fix the clipping issue completely. I've heard something like "never ever touch the master fader" and I'm wondering if this is a good solution or not?

Thanks for your feedback!

Greetings,
Wini

[Exowildebeest]

If you weren't supposed to touch the master fader, why would it be there?

Pulling the master fader down to get rid of a few db of clipping isn't 'wrong' - just as long as you know that getting rid of said clipping is costing you whatever amount in db you reduce the master fader with. This is where limiters come in

[gak]

What mix experts will tell you (because I've heard it a million times) is that ideally you want to keep the master at 0db and have that force you to really pay attention to the mix and then go from there. In practice, there is really nothing wrong with moving down the master if that's what works for you.

[Benedict]

The rule really came from pre-digital era where dropping Master Fader lost you Signal to Noise ratio. In the digital arena nothing means anything (clip wise) till you hit the AD converter. In theory you could happily run every channel at +64db and then push you master fader another +64db and not have a problem - till you hit the AD converter
:m0358:

The other part of the "don't touch the master fader" rule that holds value is in the elegance of your mix. If you push every sound up as loud as it will go and then have to pull back the Masters to compensate then it shows that your mix is inelegant (poorly constructed). It will also remove headroom for the Master Fadeouts.

One Q: are you running a Pulveriser on the Master (or even on any other dynamic sound - one with velocity/vol changes) as in my experience that unit has a very fine line between cool & clipped and has caused many issues in my final mixes. I think it has to do with the volume into the unit but I got tired of the last minute hassle and swapped back to Scream.

[selig]

What mix experts will tell you (because I've heard it a million times) is that ideally you want to keep the master at 0db and have that force you to really pay attention to the mix and then go from there. In practice, there is really nothing wrong with moving down the master if that's what works for you.

Not sure why not touching the master fader would make you pay any more attention to the mix…?

But moving on, this comes from the analog days of limited headroom etc. Makes no sense in the digital world - you can move the fader up, down, even sideways if it was allowed!

The only consideration is signal flow - knowing where the fader is in relation to the signal flow is what's important. For example, if you do as I do and put Ozone AFTER the Master Section (to accommodate it's dither), moving the master fader won't have the expect response since it's no longer the LAST gain stage in the signal path.

[Wini]

Thanks for your answers guys! 
It seems like pulling down the master fader doesn't effect my overall karma score... 

are you running a Pulveriser on the Master (or even on any other dynamic sound - one with velocity/vol changes)

No, but I'm using a bunch of dynamic instruments and an upward compressed bassdrum from Kong which already drives the channel strip for the bassdrum far into the red area. When everything comes together in 2 parts of the song the master vu meter indicates a clipping and the sound gets ugly ...

put Ozone AFTER the Master Section (to accommodate it's dither), moving the master fader won't have the expect response since it's no longer the LAST gain stage in the signal path.
Well, I think I'm using Ozone this way.  but pulling down the master fader seems to prevent this section from clipping .... otherwise I'm limiting with Ozone an already clipped sound ....

[Benedict]

Bottom line is that you can't clip Reason. It is only as the sound leaves Reason and goes to the AD converters in your soundcard (or the CD/mp3 player) that it is a problem fitting an elephant through a door made for mice.

With the extra info I think we can see you need to pay attention to the Drum as this is the culprit. Chances are you are clipping just with the drum alone but not hearing it as clip, merely liking the meaty sound with all those non-linear overtones and mashing of dynamics that spell L.O.U.D.

Once you add another instrument you hear the combined clipping which is far less pleasing. Try this: load a Piano sound and whack a Scream on after. Play ONE note. Sounds pretty cool. Now play a few Notes at once - ghastly. Too many harmonics to please even Satan.

If you want to have an elephant-sound but still have a mouse-size mix then you need to emulate the clipping with a drive device like Pulverisor, Scream or a Soft Clipper like the free RE from Softube. You will then probably want to use a Brickwall Limiter like M-Class (which has its own soft-clipper) to keep it all in scale.

[Gulale]

never touch a master fader? I ride it man.

[selig]

Thanks for your answers guys! 
It seems like pulling down the master fader doesn't effect my overall karma score... 

are you running a Pulveriser on the Master (or even on any other dynamic sound - one with velocity/vol changes)

No, but I'm using a bunch of dynamic instruments and an upward compressed bassdrum from Kong which already drives the channel strip for the bassdrum far into the red area. When everything comes together in 2 parts of the song the master vu meter indicates a clipping and the sound gets ugly ...

put Ozone AFTER the Master Section (to accommodate it's dither), moving the master fader won't have the expect response since it's no longer the LAST gain stage in the signal path.
Well, I think I'm using Ozone this way.  but pulling down the master fader seems to prevent this section from clipping .... otherwise I'm limiting with Ozone an already clipped sound ....

VU meter can't indicate clipping - are you confusing the "red" colored LEDS in the channel strip with the "clipping" indicator on the output? Remember, the "red" LEDs are an arbitrary choice that you can change via VU offset in the Big Meter section of the Rack.

I've mentioned to the Props many times how having red LEDs on the VU meters will cause folks to believe the channel is clipping, as it seems to have done here. 

You also indicate pulling down the master fader seems to prevent this section from clipping - again, it's only the outputs that can clip. And not you can't possibly limit with Ozone an already clipped sound unless you put Ozone AFTER YOUR D/A convertor (audio card). Since it's a plugin that would be impossible without a loopback. Again the ONLY place you can clip in Reason is on the outputs, and you can't put Ozone on the "outputs" (because the outputs are analog).

Maybe you could simply describe your exact setup and we could clarify what's actually going on here - it appears you have many misunderstandings about what is happening here, but I can't address these because I'm not aware of your setup.

[Wini]

Hi Folks,

thanks for your replies.  I've more or less finished the mix now with touching the master fader, putting the channel strip with the compressed bass drum also a little bit down and dropped the high pass sum signal which was compressing the master signal (side chained). Esp. the last thing I've seen on a propellerhead's video which I though was good idea made the sound overall more harsh and annoying. I'm using a very slight "normal" compression on the master now.

@selig: Maybe I've used the term clipping wrong - not every time when a signal sounds squashed and ugly it must be clipping.  Despite this the red outpug LED on the right of the transport field indicated a clipping. The sound was realy ugly and I was using the Ozone as last (well, and currently only) device in the master section.
 
The "speed knob" on the front was pulled to the right. (It is set completely to the left now.) Maybe with this setting the limiter lets some peaks pass through? I don't know - but the red clipping LED on the transport field was indicating a clipping despite I was using the limiter as last device. When I was turning down the master fader the clipping signal disappeared (despite this the mix was sounding still ugly because of the mentioned sum compression....).

[selig]

Hi Folks,

thanks for your replies.  I've more or less finished the mix now with touching the master fader, putting the channel strip with the compressed bass drum also a little bit down and dropped the high pass sum signal which was compressing the master signal (side chained). Esp. the last thing I've seen on a propellerhead's video which I though was good idea made the sound overall more harsh and annoying. I'm using a very slight "normal" compression on the master now.

@selig: Maybe I've used the term clipping wrong - not every time when a signal sounds squashed and ugly it must be clipping.  Despite this the red outpug LED on the right of the transport field indicated a clipping. The sound was realy ugly and I was using the Ozone as last (well, and currently only) device in the master section.
 
The "speed knob" on the front was pulled to the right. (It is set completely to the left now.) Maybe with this setting the limiter lets some peaks pass through? I don't know - but the red clipping LED on the transport field was indicating a clipping despite I was using the limiter as last device. When I was turning down the master fader the clipping signal disappeared (despite this the mix was sounding still ugly because of the mentioned sum compression....).

Clipping in digital means you've run out of headroom, either internally or accidentally. You say Ozone is the only device in the master section, but earlier you mention compressing the master signal (which contradicts the other statement). Also, from this image one cannot say Ozone is the last device in the mastering chain, because the Master Compressor can be placed AFTER the master inserts and you have not indicated it's position in the signal path. 

But the master fader (in this case) IS the last thing in the signal path before the D/A - IF by some chance the master fader was even the smallest amount above zero, it would likely clip (if preceded by brick-wall limiting as in this example). 

Also, without knowing the settings on Ozone, things are difficult to predict. I have seen clipping make it through when using the "Soft" algorithm, for example, but not with the others. I rarely alter the starting points much with Ozone myself.

Finally, the most important parameter to be aware of is the amount of gain reduction - doesn't so much matter about the front panel settings as they are 100% relative to the input signal level. The bottom line with any compressor is how much gain reduction it is achieving.

Otherwise, it would also be helpful to know what is your target output levels are, and what is the max amount of gain reduction you are comfortable with?

[Wini]

You say Ozone is the only device in the master section, but earlier you mention compressing the master signal (which contradicts the other statement).

I was refering to the "combinator like box" in which the Ozone was been placed. On the front side there are the letters MASTER SECTION.

Also, from this image one cannot say Ozone is the last device in the mastering chain, because the Master Compressor can be placed AFTER the master inserts

I'm just curious: How the hell could I've done this (refering to the screenshot)? I thought that the signal always runs through the SSL comp and THEN it goes through the MASTER SECTION inserts where you can find in this case the Ozone? Are there hidden features anywhere to set another signal path? 

(In this case I've cranked up the "make-up gain" knob and the "gain reduction" LEDs on the frontpanel of the Ozone went all red. So in this case we're definitly behind the SSL comp with the master inserts.)

But the master fader (in this case) IS the last thing in the signal path before the D/A - IF by some chance the master fader was even the smallest amount above zero, it would likely clip (if preceded by brick-wall limiting as in this example).

Thx for this info!!   I didn't knew this before...

After getting rid of the side chain compressing mentioned above the clipping LED stays dark. And I can now turn the master fader back to 0db without achieving any clipping.  8-)

Just another question regarding the signal flow:
When using the Izotope's dithering to render an output wav with 16bit - is it better to use the Ozone really as last device? So refering to the screenshot above I could connect it between the MASTER SECTION and the rack unit which represents the audio interface if I can get any benefits from this...?

To be really honest I must admit that I don't hear any difference between Reason's dither algo and the famous Izotope dithering .... but I've paid for the Ozone, so I should use it. 

[ScuzzyEye]

The signal path that's after the Master fader, and before the hardware is staring you right in the face. See the red wires from Master Out, to the Audio Out section of the Audio I/O section? Put the Ozone there (I usually stick the device at the top of the next rack over, so it is out of the way).

[selig]

You say Ozone is the only device in the master section, but earlier you mention compressing the master signal (which contradicts the other statement).

I was refering to the "combinator like box" in which the Ozone was been placed. On the front side there are the letters

MASTER SECTION

.

You said you were using the master compressor, then later that you were only using Ozone - which is it?

Also, from this image one cannot say Ozone is the last device in the mastering chain, because the Master Compressor can be placed AFTER the master inserts

I'm just curious: How the hell could I've done this (refering to the screenshot)? I thought that the signal always runs through the SSL comp and

THEN

it goes through the MASTER SECTION inserts where you can find in this case the Ozone? Are there hidden features anywhere to set another signal path? 

"Hidden" here in the Master Section:
 

If this is the case, the Master Compressor is actually the last thing in the signal path, not Ozone.

(In this case I've cranked up the "make-up gain" knob and the "gain reduction" LEDs on the frontpanel of the Ozone went all red. So in this case we're definitly behind the SSL comp with the master inserts.)

OK, that sounds right to me.

But the master fader (in this case) IS the last thing in the signal path before the D/A - IF by some chance the master fader was even the smallest amount above zero, it would likely clip (if preceded by brick-wall limiting as in this example).

Thx for this info!!   I didn't knew this before...

After getting rid of the side chain compressing mentioned above the clipping LED stays dark. And I can now turn the master fader back to 0db without achieving any clipping.  8-)

That shouldn't have anything to do with it if Ozone is AFTER the master compressor… odd.

Just another question regarding the signal flow:
When using the Izotope's dithering to render an output wav with 16bit - is it better to use the Ozone really as last device? So refering to the screenshot above I could connect it between the MASTER SECTION and the rack unit which represents the audio interface if I can get any benefits from this...?

To be really honest I must admit that I don't hear any difference between Reason's dither algo and the famous Izotope dithering .... but I've paid for the Ozone, so I should use it. 

Dither is indeed subtle, and would only affect the quieter moments making it difficult to effectively judge in anything but the quietest of rooms IMO. You can leave Ozone where it is as long as you DON'T touch the master fader (bringing this full circle!). But here's how I've been doing it:

Here's how I do side chain filtering on the Master Compressor (LOVE it even more with this feature!):
 

[Noplan]

All faders are there to be touched. Period. 

[selig]

All faders are there to be touched. Period. 

Exactly - that's why they are the biggest and closest control on every console, and why they are shaped so perfectly for fingers.

Those who say to set mix balances from any other source are just plain crazy IMO!

[Benedict]

Those who say to set mix balances from any other source are just plain crazy IMO!

Are you casting aspersions there Mr Moderator. I ought to report you - to yourself.  :s0959:

I really am one of those who just doesn't really like the faders. I always think it is because for most of my life I didn't have any to use but maybe it is because they are all lined up and tidy. Moving them makes them untidy. I don't like untidy. :s0106:

Carry on.

[selig]

Those who say to set mix balances from any other source are just plain crazy IMO!

Are you casting aspersions there Mr Moderator. I ought to report you - to yourself.  :s0959:

I really am one of those who just doesn't really like the faders. I always think it is because for most of my life I didn't have any to use but maybe it is because they are all lined up and tidy. Moving them makes them untidy. I don't like untidy. :s0106:

Carry on.

How do you account for all the other knobs not being lined up, not to mention the meters being all over the place!

BTW, just trying to keep things light here, sorry if it didn't come off that way…

[ScuzzyEye]

maybe it is because they are all lined up and tidy. Moving them makes them untidy. I don't like untidy. :s0106:

I'm the same way with a lot of things. I like everything nice and neat. But my brain has given itself an out. I can also accept natural disorder as being orderly. Follow if you can: I don't mind a layer of dust on something. The dust particles are scattered by a chaotic system, there is definitely no real order to it. But the dust has arranged itself that way naturally. Though, if someone were to wipe their finger through the dust, there's now a spot that where that natural disorder has been disrupted. Then I have to clean the whole thing to restore everything to an even state.

Applied to mixer faders, as long as I adjust ever single one of them there's still a consistency that I'm able to accept. I don't look at the numbers while I'm mixing, I just listen. So even if one or two end up back at -0, it's OK, because I moved it, and it just happened the best position is back where it started. As long as I don't actively try to make a pattern, like multiples of 3 dB*, everything is fine.


*I know many people like their home stereo systems on an even number. I don't, I want mine on multiples of 3 dB, because that halves or doubles the power.

[Noplan]

and why they are shaped so perfectly for fingers. 

Too bad that they are not shaped perfectly for mouse cursors. 

[Benedict]

I like that logic Mr Eye. That I can (and do) live with (esp the dust).

No offence at all Selig as I clearly am unusual in the way I mix. It is almost funny (if not plain quirky) that I don't take what is probably the easiest route and grab the fader. Maybe I am waiting for the point where I walk in a create a new mix - with all faders down and start again. Till then I "mix" at the Gains more than anything else. Works for me.

Sorry Eddie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0HPdut6qio

[selig]

I like that logic Mr Eye. That I can (and do) live with (esp the dust).

No offence at all Selig as I clearly am unusual in the way I mix. It is almost funny (if not plain quirky) that I don't take what is probably the easiest route and grab the fader. Maybe I am waiting for the point where I walk in a create a new mix - with all faders down and start again. Till then I "mix" at the Gains more than anything else. Works for me.

Sorry Eddie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0HPdut6qio

If you don't use any non-linear effects in your channel (and don't mind scrolling up to the top of the mixer, and don't mind all the input gain knobs being in different positions), then you have nothing to worry about!

But if you DO, then changes upstream will affect the response from any non-linear device that follows (dynamics, distortion, saturation, etc). I find mixing to be difficult enough without adding extra layers to the equation.

I also find it easier to work with faders/mute/solos/panning (things I use more often than others) as a group, rather than scrolling around to adjust balances. And finally, I adhere to a system of reference levels on every track, so any dynamics device behaves predictably and repeatably. If I started changing input gains, it would defeat the purpose of my whole system!  

[Benedict]

Oh I agree completely. What you say makes complete sense and it doesn't make a lot of sense that I don't do that.

My system is that I put effects and processors after the instrument and before the Mix Channel (not in the Insert box). Again that may be slightly outside the usual method but it works for me as it is my habit. I know where to find things. I don't use any distortions or compressors downstream of the Gain so gain stages don't affect me in the same ways. The only thing about the SSL that has really grabbed me so far is the EQ visualizer. I love that.

This is one of the great things about Reason in that it really lets you work in the way that comes naturally for you, without any real punishment.

Maybe next track I will try mixing with the faders.

[miahluvdd]

So, Selig, with the setup as you posted in the pic above, what is the purpose of the Gain Re before the Ozone? To have another master, master fader? Or for the meters? Or something else?

[normen]

Funnily I seem to use the faders to mix less and less as well. Most of the time I use the output gain of compressors or channel strips (plugins) to set the overall balance, ending up with the static mix with all faders at 0dB, then I use the faders for automation and the clients requests of "making this and that louder there and this and that more silent there". This way I also see at one glance where stuff is automated or where stuff was changed. When the client goes "you know what, it was better before" I just need to put the fader back to 0dB