Drum Peaks help..

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eox
Posts: 126
Joined: 25 Jan 2015

03 Mar 2015

Alright guys, I need your expertise here. Drums...well all around I struggle with drums more than anything. Especially when I'm writing and trying to be mindful of my peaks. If I simply turn the volume down to get around -8 dbfs it seems ridiculously low and lacks much of any energy. I'll lower the rest of the tracks to have it mixed in better but it always seems to be not right..I suppose what I'm asking here is for the guys that have knowledge and things you really need to do when making drum beats. I know to keep the volume down for the mastering stage but I'm one of those guys who does a little mixing as I go. (Not mastering) that way I can keep the idea and creativity flowing. But drums always always mess that up for me.

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normen
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03 Mar 2015

Its a relative thing, no? If you feel you have to turn everything too far down to not clip just turn up the volume on your amp again?

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selig
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03 Mar 2015

normen wrote:Its a relative thing, no? If you feel you have to turn everything too far down to not clip just turn up the volume on your amp again?
This is the single best piece of advice for this issue IMO - if you are always clipping your mix then turn up your monitor volume!

Also, drums that are simply played at a lower level will not sound the same as when cranked - though the only actual difference is the position volume knob!

Remember that when tracking you will always need to raise your monitor levels since you won't be "mastering" yet and your final levels are still an unknown. When mixing/mastering, your mix will naturally be louder and you can lower your monitor level. I will sometimes use a compressor on the mix for tracking just to make things sound more "exciting" (more than to control levels).

But you can never get the same mix bus levels when tracking as you can when mixing because it's only at the mix that you know exactly how loud each track will be. Always leaving some extra headroom on your levels when building tracks will allow for the spontaneous moments that almost always seem to happen when tracking or exploring new ideas. ;)
Selig Audio, LLC

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eox
Posts: 126
Joined: 25 Jan 2015

03 Mar 2015

normen wrote:Its a relative thing, no? If you feel you have to turn everything too far down to not clip just turn up the volume on your amp again?
selig wrote:
This is the single best piece of advice for this issue IMO - if you are always clipping your mix then turn up your monitor volume!

Also, drums that are simply played at a lower level will not sound the same as when cranked - though the only actual difference is the position volume knob!

Remember that when tracking you will always need to raise your monitor levels since you won't be "mastering" yet and your final levels are still an unknown. When mixing/mastering, your mix will naturally be louder and you can lower your monitor level. I will sometimes use a compressor on the mix for tracking just to make things sound more "exciting" (more than to control levels).

But you can never get the same mix bus levels when tracking as you can when mixing because it's only at the mix that you know exactly how loud each track will be. Always leaving some extra headroom on your levels when building tracks will allow for the spontaneous moments that almost always seem to happen when tracking or exploring new ideas. ;)
True..I do turn up my monitors during that stage. I tend to feel confident in all my levels EXCEPT drums. I'm starting to think the EQ'ing is something I don't do enough of. It's an art really, and I suppose practice is all I can do! Thank you both for your replies!

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selig
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03 Mar 2015

normen wrote:Its a relative thing, no? If you feel you have to turn everything too far down to not clip just turn up the volume on your amp again?
selig wrote:
This is the single best piece of advice for this issue IMO - if you are always clipping your mix then turn up your monitor volume!

Also, drums that are simply played at a lower level will not sound the same as when cranked - though the only actual difference is the position volume knob!

Remember that when tracking you will always need to raise your monitor levels since you won't be "mastering" yet and your final levels are still an unknown. When mixing/mastering, your mix will naturally be louder and you can lower your monitor level. I will sometimes use a compressor on the mix for tracking just to make things sound more "exciting" (more than to control levels).

But you can never get the same mix bus levels when tracking as you can when mixing because it's only at the mix that you know exactly how loud each track will be. Always leaving some extra headroom on your levels when building tracks will allow for the spontaneous moments that almost always seem to happen when tracking or exploring new ideas. ;)
eox wrote: True..I do turn up my monitors during that stage. I tend to feel confident in all my levels EXCEPT drums. I'm starting to think the EQ'ing is something I don't do enough of. It's an art really, and I suppose practice is all I can do! Thank you both for your replies!
If you deal with samples, less EQ is generally needed compared to recording raw/live drums. There are some samples that are more processed than others though. The ones that are not EQ'ed as much seem to be preferred by engineers because this is how they are used to working. The samples that are more "pre-EQ/Compressed" are more popular with artists (for the obvious reasons).

For example, there are many kits in the Reason Drums ReFill that take EQ nicely, but all the kits with the Ryan Green Alt Drums are pretty much "cooked" - adding more than a tiny bit of compression/EQ to those samples has never really worked for me!
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

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djfm1983
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03 Mar 2015

What kind of music do you make? What kind of drums are we talking about here? EDM, hip-hop, dub step, ECT…?
soundcloud.com/djfm1983

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eox
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04 Mar 2015

djfm1983 wrote:What kind of music do you make? What kind of drums are we talking about here? EDM, hip-hop, dub step, ECT…?
Well..I write a little bit of everything. Typically I have an electronic feel a cross between dub step, southern rap, trap. Or a mix of kinda alternative sound..Yeah all over the spectrum lol.

I really admire M83 and his sound a whole lot. Especially his song Outro. If you guys haven't listened to that song yet, then I highly recommend it.


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eox
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04 Mar 2015

normen wrote:Its a relative thing, no? If you feel you have to turn everything too far down to not clip just turn up the volume on your amp again?
selig wrote:
This is the single best piece of advice for this issue IMO - if you are always clipping your mix then turn up your monitor volume!

Also, drums that are simply played at a lower level will not sound the same as when cranked - though the only actual difference is the position volume knob!

Remember that when tracking you will always need to raise your monitor levels since you won't be "mastering" yet and your final levels are still an unknown. When mixing/mastering, your mix will naturally be louder and you can lower your monitor level. I will sometimes use a compressor on the mix for tracking just to make things sound more "exciting" (more than to control levels).

But you can never get the same mix bus levels when tracking as you can when mixing because it's only at the mix that you know exactly how loud each track will be. Always leaving some extra headroom on your levels when building tracks will allow for the spontaneous moments that almost always seem to happen when tracking or exploring new ideas. ;)
eox wrote: True..I do turn up my monitors during that stage. I tend to feel confident in all my levels EXCEPT drums. I'm starting to think the EQ'ing is something I don't do enough of. It's an art really, and I suppose practice is all I can do! Thank you both for your replies!
selig wrote:
If you deal with samples, less EQ is generally needed compared to recording raw/live drums. There are some samples that are more processed than others though. The ones that are not EQ'ed as much seem to be preferred by engineers because this is how they are used to working. The samples that are more "pre-EQ/Compressed" are more popular with artists (for the obvious reasons).

For example, there are many kits in the Reason Drums ReFill that take EQ nicely, but all the kits with the Ryan Green Alt Drums are pretty much "cooked" - adding more than a tiny bit of compression/EQ to those samples has never really worked for me!
:)

And yes Selig, I typically always use samples. I have never done a live recording of a drum kit before so this helps.

I suppose regardless of the genre of music, what seems to be hard is how to get the Kick and Snare to sit in the mix. With the energy and punch you would expect. Without the clipping. If I turn the volume down to get enough head room it sounds to thin..If it's where it sounds nice, I have no head room. That's where I can't seem to figure out what I am doing wrong. Do I lower the levels on the say, Kick and Snare, and do all of this processing to get the meat and snappiness you'd want? Then again, this is an art. And it's an art I struggle with!

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normen
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04 Mar 2015

eox wrote:And yes Selig, I typically always use samples. I have never done a live recording of a drum kit before so this helps.

I suppose regardless of the genre of music, what seems to be hard is how to get the Kick and Snare to sit in the mix. With the energy and punch you would expect. Without the clipping. If I turn the volume down to get enough head room it sounds to thin..If it's where it sounds nice, I have no head room. That's where I can't seem to figure out what I am doing wrong. Do I lower the levels on the say, Kick and Snare, and do all of this processing to get the meat and snappiness you'd want? Then again, this is an art. And it's an art I struggle with!
Just turning the volume down doesn't change anything about the sound. As said, if it *APPEARS* to have too few impact while you're mixing turn up the volume of your loudspeakers.

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selig
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Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

04 Mar 2015

normen wrote:Its a relative thing, no? If you feel you have to turn everything too far down to not clip just turn up the volume on your amp again?
selig wrote:
This is the single best piece of advice for this issue IMO - if you are always clipping your mix then turn up your monitor volume!

Also, drums that are simply played at a lower level will not sound the same as when cranked - though the only actual difference is the position volume knob!

Remember that when tracking you will always need to raise your monitor levels since you won't be "mastering" yet and your final levels are still an unknown. When mixing/mastering, your mix will naturally be louder and you can lower your monitor level. I will sometimes use a compressor on the mix for tracking just to make things sound more "exciting" (more than to control levels).

But you can never get the same mix bus levels when tracking as you can when mixing because it's only at the mix that you know exactly how loud each track will be. Always leaving some extra headroom on your levels when building tracks will allow for the spontaneous moments that almost always seem to happen when tracking or exploring new ideas. ;)
eox wrote: True..I do turn up my monitors during that stage. I tend to feel confident in all my levels EXCEPT drums. I'm starting to think the EQ'ing is something I don't do enough of. It's an art really, and I suppose practice is all I can do! Thank you both for your replies!
selig wrote:
If you deal with samples, less EQ is generally needed compared to recording raw/live drums. There are some samples that are more processed than others though. The ones that are not EQ'ed as much seem to be preferred by engineers because this is how they are used to working. The samples that are more "pre-EQ/Compressed" are more popular with artists (for the obvious reasons).

For example, there are many kits in the Reason Drums ReFill that take EQ nicely, but all the kits with the Ryan Green Alt Drums are pretty much "cooked" - adding more than a tiny bit of compression/EQ to those samples has never really worked for me!
:)
eox wrote:

And yes Selig, I typically always use samples. I have never done a live recording of a drum kit before so this helps.

I suppose regardless of the genre of music, what seems to be hard is how to get the Kick and Snare to sit in the mix. With the energy and punch you would expect. Without the clipping. If I turn the volume down to get enough head room it sounds to thin..If it's where it sounds nice, I have no head room. That's where I can't seem to figure out what I am doing wrong. Do I lower the levels on the say, Kick and Snare, and do all of this processing to get the meat and snappiness you'd want? Then again, this is an art. And it's an art I struggle with!
To add to what Normen said, the drums are the same no matter the level. Turning them down will only make a difference if there is a compressor somewhere in the chain that no longer compresses since the level has been lowered below the threshold setting. Otherwise, turn the drums down and IMMEDIATELY turn up your monitor volume and just like magic - the drums are at the same level! 

The other thing to consider is what type of music are you making and where will it be heard. If it's dance music, it will be heard over a large club PA. If you are doing this professionally, you'll want a studio monitor system that can get to similar decibel levels in your workspace. Same for film music, you need to mix it in a room that is similar to a movie theater. 

Or to put it another way, if your music is intended to be played loud, you need to be able to work on it at similar levels (though not 100% of the time or you'll quickly loose perspective). 

Finally, it's always worth pointing out that mixing is 99% illusion IMO. You can't make something sound "loud" simply by turning it up - it will simply clip at some point. So you need to create the "illusion" of loudness, part of which comes from understanding how the human hearing works and adapting to that. Knowing which frequencies we are most sensitive to is a start (Google Fletcher/Munson for a start), and understanding the basics of loudness, at least the difference between peak and average energy and their affects on your mix. 

Mixing is an art that takes time to master for most. I would love to have this forum be a place where folks can learn how to improve their art, so if you have further questions keep them coming. Everyone can learn something here from reading about what others are going through IMO. :)
Selig Audio, LLC

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djfm1983
Posts: 87
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04 Mar 2015

[/quote] If it's dance music, it will be heard over a large club PA. If you are doing this professionally, you'll want a studio monitor system that can get to similar decibel levels in your workspace. Or to put it another way, if your music is intended to be played loud, you need to be able to work on it at similar levels (though not 100% of the time or you'll quickly loose perspective). [/quote]
I wouldn't agree with anything said here. That Is a quick way to lose your hearing. You don't need to mix at loud levels that could actually throw your mix off. It's ok to check your mix at a loud listening level really quick but not for a long period at all. Your ears can become fatigued quickly if your mixing at loud listening levels which could throw your mixing judgement off. It's actually a good idea to buy a SPL meter so you can be sure to know how loud your listening to everything. There's the Fletcher Munson curves (aka equal loudness curves) that says we don't hear frequincies the same at different volume levels and also you gotta protect your hearing. I've actually read about big time mixing engineers saying the best way to achive a loud mix is to mix at really low listening levels (Chris Lord Alge comes to mind). A really good thing to do might be to have a reference mix to check while mixing. Pick out a song that you think is mixed well with the drum sound your trying to achieve and check your reference at the same loudness at what your working on.
soundcloud.com/djfm1983

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normen
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04 Mar 2015

djfm1983 wrote:I wouldn't agree with anything said here. That Is a quick way to lose your hearing. You don't need to mix at loud levels that could actually throw your mix off. It's ok to check your mix at a loud listening level really quick but not for a long period at all. Your ears can become fatigued quickly if your mixing at loud listening levels which could throw your mixing judgement off. It's actually a good idea to buy a SPL meter so you can be sure to know how loud your listening to everything. There's the Fletcher Munson curves (aka equal loudness curves) that says we don't hear frequincies the same at different volume levels and also you gotta protect your hearing. I've actually read about big time mixing engineers saying the best way to achive a loud mix is to mix at really low listening levels (Chris Lord Alge comes to mind). A really good thing to do might be to have a reference mix to check while mixing. Pick out a song that you think is mixed well with the drum sound your trying to achieve and check your reference at the same loudness at what your working on.
Well thats what he said, you shouldn't listen too loud too long. But the fact that you mention that it will sound different depending on playback volume is a strong hint that its correct that you should be able to listen at the intended playback volume at least some of the time :)

Its true that you don't need to mix at high volumes to make a good mix but I can 100% assure you that at least your producer will want to listen to it at "club volume" to get an idea of what it will sound like, and for good reason. So you should probably have done that as well earlier in the mix.

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selig
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04 Mar 2015

@djfm1983 

You basically repeated everything I said (probably said it better!), don't know why you think we don't agree on anything here. Maybe you misunderstood my point, but I agree 100% with everything you wrote (and therefore you agree with everything I wrote)!
:)
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pushedbutton
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04 Mar 2015

if you took all your live instruments and bent space and time to put everything in a 1cm cube then pointed a mic at the cube you'd probably not get a great recording. It's all to do with relativity, Your Kick and snare can't occupy the same real world dimensions so surely one must be closer to the listener than the other. You chose how to approach this, just know that it's a thing.
Loudness is perceived by the after effect of it, once we hear loud our brains automatically adjust to it, so the impact dies off, therefore turning stuff up will just shunt your mixing problems to the front of the mix when really what you need to be looking at is what's going on behind the curtain line, what could be carved away to make room for the sounds you want the listener to hear?
I'm still crap at it on the whole but I appreciate the importance of considering how music done in reason would work in the real world.
@pushedbutton on twitter, add me, send me a message, but don't try to sell me stuff cos I'm skint.
Using Reason since version 3 and still never finished a song.

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BPGeez
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07 Mar 2015

Seems like ur drums may need a little compression my man! To contain peaks you may want a very fast attack and fast release. This should decrease the peaks but give substance and body to your drums. See if this works for u my man :s0826:

Check this
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep09/a ... deeasy.htm
Reason is my girlfriend. Sometimes she mistreats me, but I still love her.

Checkout my tunes made with Reason: https://soundcloud.com/geez-musicals

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eox
Posts: 126
Joined: 25 Jan 2015

08 Mar 2015

Wow, some very helpful information here. Well, I am working on a track trying to apply these tips right now! I am having a little better luck so far getting things to sound more full and impacting. I appreciate you all!

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virtualpt
Posts: 41
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

08 Mar 2015

Have you tried using Carve on your bass bus (or anything else with really low frequencies) to help the kick cut through? If you don't want to use carve you can do this with a side chained compressor. What you are trying to do is to compress the bass a little bit when the kick happens, so that the kick cuts through the mix a bit more. Carve is brilliant for this as it cuts a certain frequency, but I have had good results side chaining.

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Miles Static
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Joined: 23 Jan 2015

09 Mar 2015

Are these electronic(sampled) drums or live (tracked) drums?

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