The Most Stupid Features and Mistakes in Reason ?!?!

[muffins4all]

What costs?
Add up the costs for building and maintaining an online store with a very high visibility factor (lots of traffic because there are lots of products, something difficult for an indy developer to pull off). Also add the developer costs for un-cracked copy protection like iLok (you'd likely be surprised about this one cost alone!). Don't forget to add the cost of all the developer tools etc. Throw in the cost for marketing. Don't forget tech support (for both developers and end users) - that's not free! And finally, factor in the developer's cost of identifying, researching, and maintaining all of these systems factoring in the extra pain in the ass when something's not going right (like it is right now for some users - I'd hate to be responsible for MY system giving folks this kinds of problems). 

And not forgetting that many if not most of these expenses must come out of pocket BEFORE there is an income stream at all, and you begin to understand why a developer such as myself would be more than happy to give 30% to the Props! I can't provide any numbers, but it's likely this cost is allowing LOWER prices since (among other things) it's a fixed cost that's more easy to account for. 

That's my take, anyway.

Thanks for posting this, selig, as we've gotten some very disappointing sales feedback from some plug-in devs who have waded into the rack extension market (Sonic Charge, u-he, Audio Damage), not to mention the fact that a few other plug-in devs seem to have stopped developing rack extensions.

While it's encouraging to read this as a Reason user, would it be possible that you share this take with some plug-in devs? 

Maybe start with Valhalla DSP? 

[CharlyCharlzz]

what are the most stupid features that kill your workflow or worst in Reason at the moment ?

Me :

when I make a automation lane for the (mute) of a chanel of the mixer and try to record that it always wipe my audio with blank ! any way to stop this ?

when I double click in a midi or audio container I am stuck into it and got to open or close regroove to get out ?!?! (I heard there was a shortcut for that ....still searching after a year

did you guys got some stuff like this that does your head in ?

[Last Alternative]

I guess the biggest mistake(s), I would say, is that ever since REs, PH has virtually abandoned any need or desire for innovation, aside from a few things. Now it seems they feel we should shut up and deal with CPU chomping 3rd party stuff with bugs (many of which are never resolved) that hold no weight compared to what PH could make and the fact that everything PH used to make were stock tools and now get off on charging up the butt, plus the fact that they have completely abandoned what they're all about.. or were all about- being an affordable fun system. And I guess they're totally cool leaving out important standard things like advanced audio editing, crossfade, a simple comprehensible PH brand STOCK multi-band compressor. Nah- who needs that anyway..

The ratio of features : price is a sad, sad boring letdown now. We should be seeing R9 this year maybe and that will determine if I stay or go.

[Gaja]

@ Charly sounds like you have the track record enabled. Make sure to only have the automation record ready (the red dot with those weird lines on it)

@LA
I tink you're projecting your own inabilities on props, instead of letting each deal with their own.
It's not props fault that some REs are buggy. It's not props decision how developers price their plugins and upgrades have always been 129€ since R4 and Record. Or do you mean they like electricity up their butt?
Also there is not fact.
You might feel they have abandoned "what they're all about", but there are no facts. The proce for Reason is still te same, so it's as affordable as has been, and if you don't manage to have fun with Reason, I'd say the fault is on your end. You clearly expect so much from Reason that you fail to enjoy what you have in front of you.
There is also no proof for them being "cool with just leaving out important standard things". First of all why would a stock multiband eq be a standard feature? And also why don't you use the possibilities you have right now? (And have had since R4) You could create an 8 Band multi band compressor rigt now! You could built a four band multiband eq using mcdsp for the bass, an RE-2A for the low mids, a leveler for the high mids and a pulverizer for the highs (of course that wouldn't make sense, but you could). You could build a multi band compressor out of your favourite compressor.
If you're not using your full potential, why bother and complaining about others not using theirs?

[Last Alternative]

^ I think you missed my entire point about simple user-friendly stock devices which, yes, are standard in every other DAW. I don't like complicated. Making a custom device as complicated as you're talking about is a bit beyond my desire to ever learn, much less want to deal with so much more CPU usage than one simple device would be. Sure I have inabilities. Who doesn't?
And I do blame PH for allowing products they represent to have bugs that go unresolved. Then again, they have their own share of bugs and issues that go unresolved too so it's no surprise I guess.. After all, those things help or hurt a customer's view of, and willingness to spend money on, the company. Also, they are indeed responsible for the prices. Maybe I'm ignorant on how taxes work in Sweden but charging developers 30% of earnings is insane and causes the prices to be so high.

The facts are all in their actions over time. To wrap this up- yes I expect more from Propellerhead. If you can't see how sluggish they've become on innovation in the last year then I don't know what to tell ya. It's my opinion though. Maybe you think R8 was a gift from Jesus Christ himself, I dunno.

I enjoy what I have but do not enjoy what we should have here in 2000 fucking 15. Old samplers, limited audio editing, outdated soundbanks, etc.
Good day, Sir.

[trimph1]

Well, I appreciate it for what it does do. And, if one is so inclined how about doing some soundbanks of your own?

http://www.reasontalk.com/?forum=414544

Seems  to have a bunch of new stuff coming out....

[Raveshaper]

(...that wouldn't make sense, but you could)

"Just because you can, doesn't mean you should." - somebody famous probably said this

simple user-friendly stock devices ... are standard in every other DAW. I don't like complicated. Making a custom device as complicated as you're talking about is a bit beyond my desire to even learn, much less want to deal with

This highlights part of why Reason is not more popular than it is. On one hand you can do things with such freedom that you can do things that don't make sense. On the other hand you have to deal with complexity when trying to achieve what you wish you had already. Things that don't make sense are often impractical or teach bad practices. Pulling one's hair out over complex patch design is not user-friendly, it's user-challenging.

If every other DAW is doing it wrong while Reason is getting it right, then why are so many using the other ones instead? Simplicity, immediacy, restrictions that promote strategy and productivity. Focusing on the music, providing visuals that inform or clarify, and no eye candy or wire sims (outside of plug interfaces). Those are some damn good reasons for not using Reason.

I enjoy what I have but do not enjoy what we should have here in [2015]. Old samplers, limited audio editing, outdated soundbanks, etc.
Good day, Sir.

Love it. Very well said.

The biggest mistakes for me are the nonsensical refusals to integrate with the rest of the industry. This serves to hurt their users in the form of stunting their growth and hindering their creative potential. If I must be specific beyond that, I would have these criticisms.

1. MIDI Notes/MIDI features
I have done computer programming. Timed events have a start and an end. Flat rectangular graphics contain 4 points, one per corner. It is exceedingly easy to write code that resizes the rectangle from the left as well as the right. Not having left-hand edge editing for MIDI notes until 2015 is absurd. Still not having decent MIDI editing tools to this very day is unthinkable.

2. Complexity by Necessity
To get anything decent out of the program, I have no choice but to route and wire and patch and workaround my way through a marathon of things. Even if I setup templates - which I have done extensively - this involves a lot of time spent upfront when I'm not actively creating music. I want to be able to work quickly and then go in and finely tune things as needed.

3. Everything is Deliberate
No matter what I'm trying to do, I always feel like a Swedish scientist in a lab coat is hovering over my shoulder constantly asking me "are you sure you really want to do that?" I have to be specific to the point it's obstructive and I'm always fighting against a very rigid interface whose very feature set implies more than it actually delivers. It doesn't help that it graphically reminds me of Windows 95. Using a preset in Massive while running in standalone mode is a more inviting user experience.

To recap all of that, I feel like I'm visiting a museum display every time I reach for a device. Money is the only thing delaying my transition away from the platform.

Speaking of transition, I really do think there should be a "Rethink Reason" type of thing somewhere that does a very unbiased rundown of the real cost of using Reason versus the value in other DAWs. Maybe a gut check of tracking how many projects get finished, how much growth in production technique actually occurs over a certain period of time, whether or not a lot of time has been spent without gaining any results, the whole works when it comes to the day-to-day of Reason producers. I know what working professionals outside of Reason typically think, but it would be a valuable service to prospective users who want the straight answer from current and veteran users before choosing to invest.

Alternatively, a "Reason Rehab" type of thing would be terrific for people who want a more satisfying experience than what they found in Reason but don't know which VST host to migrate to. Both ideas would be sort of a support group for people being brave and giving up their addiction to/leaving the abusive relationship with the PH closed bubble.

[Gaja]

^ I think you missed my entire point about simple user-friendly stock devices which, yes, are standard in every other DAW. I don't like complicated. Making a custom device as complicated as you're talking about is a bit beyond my desire to ever learn, much less want to deal with so much more CPU usage than one simple device would be. Sure I have inabilities. Who doesn't?
And I do blame PH for allowing products they represent to have bugs that go unresolved. Then again, they have their own share of bugs and issues that go unresolved too so it's no surprise I guess.. After all, those things help or hurt a customer's view of, and willingness to spend money on, the company. Also, they are indeed responsible for the prices. Maybe I'm ignorant on how taxes work in Sweden but charging developers 30% of earnings is insane and causes the prices to be so high.

The facts are all in their actions over time. To wrap this up- yes I expect more from Propellerhead. If you can't see how sluggish they've become on innovation in the last year then I don't know what to tell ya. It's my opinion though. Maybe you think R8 was a gift from Jesus Christ himself, I dunno.

I enjoy what I have but do not enjoy what we should have here in 2000 fucking 15. Old samplers, limited audio editing, outdated soundbanks, etc.
Good day, Sir.

Well maybe a single multi band compressor device may be standard in every daw, but none of them allows the level of detail and complexity that Reasons stock devices do.
Your frustration makes more and more sense to me! (Sorry I don't mean to sound rude, or to insult you at all!) Because Reason is great for musicians, until it comes to mixing. Then it is great for engineers who like it "complicated".
Of course you're frustrated if you don't like it complicated, but tere's 4DYNE, which is a great multi band compressor and not really expensive at 40 bucks. Plus you have break out jacks and do stuff like only distort the high mids, or only sidechain the bass etc really easily.
What you want is a free multiband compressor, which you have, but are not interested enough to learn how to use it. There are several multi band compressor combinators available in the factory sound bank. Yes props delivered multi band compression before every other daw had it as a standard. Of course you need to know how to use it first and learn what each parameter does and just turning knobs until it sounds right isn't a very trustworthy approach, when it comes to Reason imo. So there is tons of stuff that you haven't discovered yet available at your fingertips. But you want another stock multi band compressor, which I totally understand and of course I'd like one too. Especially for free. But sadly the development of software is a lot of work and not particularly cheap. So if you have to develop software in order to make a living, giving away software is not exactly helping.
As for the 30% cut...
Afaik all other app store like systems charge 30%. It is totally Reasonable, considering that you could still make money from a plugin you sold 20 years ago, even if your company doesn't exist anymore (well you have to provide some details at least), and have zero (0) maintainance cost for the rest of your life. If you make an awesome RE and are able to sell it for 9$ then everyone (or many) will buy it, and that means future buyers of Reason as well. As a developer, if you have a bug free plugin, you don't have to do anything at all considering stuff like 128 bit support, or new API compatibility, or platform compatibility, you don't need to pay for servers to host your plugins and if they see the awesomeness of your price/quality ratio they might even promote your plugin to all the reason users, reducing the need to advertise massively. If you view it as a long term investment, then it might very well pan out really well a few years down the road.
And as Avasohpt (I think) usually states: 30% of somehing is more than 100% of nothing.

@Qwaizan
Wow... My experience is the opposite, and I'm resizing midi notes from the left here happily.
Perhaps you really made a mistake investing in Reason, as you clearly prefer a different workflow. Take a look at Reaper. I can't stand it, so you might be all over it

[The Tone Ranger]

@Qwaizan
Wow... My experience is the opposite, and I'm resizing midi notes from the left here happily.
Perhaps you really made a mistake investing in Reason, as you clearly prefer a different workflow. Take a look at Reaper. I can't stand it, so you might be all over it

That's exactly what I was thinking. I got other DAW's and all the magic happens in Reason. I don't really like mixing in Reason but for making badass synth shit, there's nothing else that comes close to Reason (in software) for bringing out my creativity. I don't like overly complex VST's with arpeggiators, sequencers, and 20 LFOs built into it. It's overwhelming and I can never understand what's going on in a patch. This slows me down when I have to adjust something. I like building sounds from the ground up and Reasons modular approach is a lot better for that.

[davidvilla]

I hate hate HATE how I can't use as many REs in Reason as I can use audio units in Logic. I am really getting fed up with Reason these days...

[selig]

Also, they are indeed responsible for the prices. Maybe I'm ignorant on how taxes work in Sweden but charging developers 30% of earnings is insane and causes the prices to be so high.

Two things:
The Propellerheads have no control over the prices developers set, and that 30% you mention is not taxes. What you CAN say is that the associated development costs contribute to the cost of the final product. In this case those costs are taken out of your income stream. In other cases you pay for these things up front. I've done the math and I'm extremely happy with the 30% deduction and feel it's well worth the price IMO!

What costs?
Add up the costs for building and maintaining an online store with a very high visibility factor (lots of traffic because there are lots of products, something difficult for an indy developer to pull off). Also add the developer costs for un-cracked copy protection like iLok (you'd likely be surprised about this one cost alone!). Don't forget to add the cost of all the developer tools etc. Throw in the cost for marketing. Don't forget tech support (for both developers and end users) - that's not free! And finally, factor in the developer's cost of identifying, researching, and maintaining all of these systems factoring in the extra pain in the ass when something's not going right (like it is right now for some users - I'd hate to be responsible for MY system giving folks this kinds of problems). 

And not forgetting that many if not most of these expenses must come out of pocket BEFORE there is an income stream at all, and you begin to understand why a developer such as myself would be more than happy to give 30% to the Props! I can't provide any numbers, but it's likely this cost is allowing LOWER prices since (among other things) it's a fixed cost that's more easy to account for. 

That's my take, anyway.

[KEVMOVE02]

Also, they are indeed responsible for the prices. Maybe I'm ignorant on how taxes work in Sweden but charging developers 30% of earnings is insane and causes the prices to be so high.

Two things:
The Propellerheads have no control over the prices developers set, and that 30% you mention is not taxes. What you CAN say is that the associated development costs contribute to the cost of the final product. In this case those costs are taken out of your income stream. In other cases you pay for these things up front. I've done the math and I'm extremely happy with the 30% deduction and feel it's well worth the price IMO!

What costs?
Add up the costs for building and maintaining an online store with a very high visibility factor (lots of traffic because there are lots of products, something difficult for an indy developer to pull off). Also add the developer costs for un-cracked copy protection like iLok (you'd likely be surprised about this one cost alone!). Don't forget to add the cost of all the developer tools etc. Throw in the cost for marketing. Don't forget tech support (for both developers and end users) - that's not free! And finally, factor in the developer's cost of identifying, researching, and maintaining all of these systems factoring in the extra pain in the ass when something's not going right (like it is right now for some users - I'd hate to be responsible for MY system giving folks this kinds of problems). 

And not forgetting that many if not most of these expenses must come out of pocket BEFORE there is an income stream at all, and you begin to understand why a developer such as myself would be more than happy to give 30% to the Props! I can't provide any numbers, but it's likely this cost is allowing LOWER prices since (among other things) it's a fixed cost that's more easy to account for. 

That's my take, anyway.

Well said! I think if most critics of pricing were to actually bring a product to market, 90% of the comments made would be retracted. I write and sell books and while I make more money direct selling, I don't mind getting a 70% royalty check letting someone else sell to people I don't know. 

[EnochLight]

Well, I wouldn't call it a stupid feature or mistake, but my only complaint is the painstakingly slow pace at which the RE SDK seems to be developed.  We're approaching year number 3 with Rack Extensions, yet we still cannot:

• Change panels (ala Thor/Kong)
• Load user samples or sample in general (WTF?!)

These two items may seem minor, but IMHO they are two things that are holding back a lot of devs to do ports of existing products, among other things.  Other than that, my complaints are few and far in between.  

Maybe a means to do advanced graphics acceleration in RE's (something akin to the SSL spectral EQ display), but that's more of a feature request than what I would consider a mistake or stupid feature.

[Gaja]

Well, I wouldn't call it a stupid feature or mistake, but my only complaint is the painstakingly slow pace at which the RE SDK seems to be developed.  We're approaching year number 3 with Rack Extensions, yet we still cannot:

• Change panels (ala Thor/Kong)
• Load user samples or sample in general (WTF?!)

These two items may seem minor, but IMHO they are two things that are holding back a lot of devs to do ports of existing products, among other things.  Other than that, my complaints are few and far in between.  

Maybe a means to do advanced graphics acceleration in RE's (something akin to the SSL spectral EQ display), but that's more of a feature request than what I would consider a mistake or stupid feature.

I understand your frustration and agree that these features are really important and would help the development/porting of many great REs, but I don't personally feel that the process is painstakingly slow. there were two upgrades to the SDK so far (that I'm aware of) and the IDT is being developed in parallel. I don't know if that has seen any updates yet, but it is still something that requires attention and adds to the multi tasking that has been going on for some time at Propellerhead hq. There are 45? People working at propellerhead?... Active development areas are Reason, REs, iOS apps, RE SDK and IDT SDK and of course discover. Six major fields of development. If theres a somewhat even distribution that means that a total of 7 people per project group and that is without counting all thentasks that require attention as well, such as marketing, maintainance, office stuff, legal stuff etc.
So from my perspective and in regards to two Reason version upgrades, eleven Rack Extensions, three iOS apps, IDT, Discover and whatever it is these guys have in store for us, the pace at which the SDK is developed (two upgrades in tree years) is totally fine. Also compared to VST the pace seems to be faster, no?

Ah whatever...
I should stop defending people I don't know, doing work I don't know anything about, in internet forums full of people I have never seen in real life...

[zakalwe]

sucky sequencer/editor.  parallel latency issues.  CPU hogging RE.

i'd really like to say that nothing kills my workflow like rewire but i'm afraid it's not true lol.

[rvman]

I really hope the next update is strongly focused on improving the sequencer.

[dvdrtldg]

Loss of cancel function in the R8 patch browser. Guys, put it back!

[Gulale]

There is is no decent mastering EQ, Multiband compressor. there is no Stereo phase correlation meter on the master bus to see mono compatibility no melodyne crappy sequencer so much more. Damn but it costs 400 bucks. 

[Higor]

They should catalog the presets by Reason's versions as well. Like, what are the new presets, sounds and effects in Reason 6, 7, 8? They should put that in an specific folder. I was in Reason 5 and jumped to Reason 8 a month ago. I spent a lot of time in those sound banks filtering what suited to me and what no suited. I don't feel like going through all that again guessing what the new sounds are.

[avasopht]

I should stop defending people I don't know, doing work I don't know anything about, in internet forums full of people I have never seen in real life.

A lesson I'm learning to adopt for myself too.

I'll just say, 30% for me is good value. I get access to a market.

Some time ago I was developing software for a company in market that had a 30/70 platform share, cost a minimum of $5000 to use their proprietary development tools and releasing a product on their market cost a further $50k. Our product could have been developed with non of those costs and taking 100% of the profits if the Open Alternative was targeted, which had no limitations compared to our chosen platform that had much lower performance and was incompatible with all our tools. Oh and did I also mention the high risk (though on average, *medium reward) and much smaller market than publishing for Open Alternative!

Thing is, for their 30% cut, $55k costs, smaller market and risk factors, there was considerable value in everything they offered. See, their SDK also had tools of value, provided us with algorithms, systems and procedures to use in our product as well as provided us with various infrastructures and technologies that would have cost us $300k+ to produce ourselves.

So when I look at the RE SDK, I can only calculate the value of it's use relative to all available options and let's just say, it got me excited about writing DSP. Granted I've not released a Rack Extension, but that's because I have improvements to make

Like, the other day I made a noise shaping dither, but I've not released it because there are other dithers available that are somewhat better (that being said I think mine is probably better than the Reason one ).

*: My full analysis of the market was that based on the standard deviation and average, that it made for a more prudent choice for the company at that time.

[avasopht]

Okay, workflow killers:

1. When using Reason as a performance keyboard while also trying to record the session with a microphone, but then need to change / create an instrument. Granted Reason is not designed to play live
2. When the popup menus require scrolling and I can't use the mouse wheel.

But I like to adapt to the environment, so those are probably the only ones that break my flow.

[CharlyCharlzz]

@ Charly sounds like you have the track record enabled. Make sure to only have the automation record ready (the red dot with those weird lines on it) @LA I tink you're projecting your own inabilities on props, instead of letting each deal with their own. It's not props fault that some REs are buggy. It's not props decision how developers price their plugins and upgrades have always been 129€ since R4 and Record. Or do you mean they like electricity up their butt? Also there is not fact. You might feel they have abandoned "what they're all about", but there are no facts. The proce for Reason is still te same, so it's as affordable as has been, and if you don't manage to have fun with Reason, I'd say the fault is on your end. You clearly expect so much from Reason that you fail to enjoy what you have in front of you. There is also no proof for them being "cool with just leaving out important standard things". First of all why would a stock multiband eq be a standard feature? And also why don't you use the possibilities you have right now? (And have had since R4) You could create an 8 Band multi band compressor rigt now! You could built a four band multiband eq using mcdsp for the bass, an RE-2A for the low mids, a leveler for the high mids and a pulverizer for the highs (of course that wouldn't make sense, but you could). You could build a multi band compressor out of your favourite compressor. If you're not using your full potential, why bother and complaining about others not using theirs?

thanks GaJA , it's so stupid but nobody could help back in the PUF ,

all the rest of this post I erased because I'm sick of doing my head in with anything from PH , it's hard enougth to mix your how sounds in a song for me so plenty of doing my head with things that are already working fine to add some more crap about how  things are not !
I wish I had more for less that is for shure
 

[motuscott]

That escalated quickly.
And was edited quickly.

[EnochLight]

Like, the other day I made a noise shaping dither, but I've not released it because there are other dithers available that are somewhat better (that being said I think mine is probably better than the Reason one ).

I don't mean to digress from the thread, but I just wanted to encourage you to release this.  Just add a feature that makes it unique from the stuff that's already in the shop (*cough cough* customized interactive display widget *cough cough*).     If it sounds better than the Reason one, that's a good reason to put it in the shop!