Rewire 2 bidirectional Midi

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electrofux
Posts: 863
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

24 Feb 2015

What do the Props mean when they say Rewire 2 has bidirectional Midi? At least thats what the Reason 7 manual says.
Now i wonder how that looks like and which DAW actually implements this.
Did anyone ever get in contact with bidirectional Rewire Midi?

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bouwie
Posts: 32
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

24 Feb 2015

For me reason 7.1 and cubase 6.5 it's still one way. From cubase to reason. Its a shame becaurse i can't use korde or any seq arp in reason to trigger vsti. I can do it with loopbe or something, but it should be possible with cubase and reason only. Audio olso. Why can't i record audio in reason in rewire mode. Now i have to record in cubase and than import the wav. file into reason. Why would i like to do this. Well in reason i can do things cubase can't. Thanks to cv gate. And why would i use cubase. Well cubase can do things reason can't. Best of both worlds.

Ostermilk
Posts: 1535
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

24 Feb 2015

electrofux wrote:What do the Props mean when they say Rewire 2 has bidirectional Midi? At least thats what the Reason 7 manual says.
Now i wonder how that looks like and which DAW actually implements this.
Did anyone ever get in contact with bidirectional Rewire Midi?
I've been using bidirectional midi since Reason introduced the EMI.

However, there's no way I know of for sending midi out via Rewire although you can send midi out via a cable, physical or virtual, whilst rewired to a host.

Just make sure you are sending midi out via the EMI(s) on the same midi port(s) as the host DAW is set to recieve from.  Midi back in to Reason from your host is still acheived by sending midi to a specific device via Rewire as per normal.

I'm not sure how you go about setting up a virtual midi port on a Mac but on a PC LoopMidi is de riguer for being able to setup any virtual midi ports you need on a whim.  If you have a spare HW Midi I/O port though all you need is a real cable to perform the loopback.

For the two minutes it takes to set up LoopMidi though I can't see why anyone would have a problem with it and you get the added bonus of being able to loopback all those CV devices that you can't currently perform a note to track operation on.  I don't really understand how much easier it could be made if that same functionality was built into the app.  But that's just me I guess.

electrofux
Posts: 863
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

24 Feb 2015

Yeah, i know there are ways to get Midi out of Reason. I use Remote for more CC related stuff but since i read that Rewire 2 should handle bidirectional Midi i was wondering if that has been implemented somewhere.

My current usecase are Max4Live templates for every Reason Synth that control the parameters nicely ordered so that Push sees them in banks of 8. Now for the way into Reason this is no Problem just make the Max4Live dials send out the correct ccs, select the correct Rewire device and off you go. BUT if you want the Max4Live template reflect the values of a SynthPatch eg after a Patch change, i need a back Channel form Reasons parameters into Live and into the M4Live template. And here the hazzle starts.

Create Remote Codecs, lock them to the desired Reason Synth, accept the Midi on a dedicated Midi Track in Live, send the Midi to the Max4Live template and make sure you don't get Midi Feedback ;-)
I have done it, it is a lor of work and it works, great but the setup overhead is quite something and then i read about bidirectional Midi In Rewire 2 which (if implemented) should take care of all the above steps in one go.

electrofux
Posts: 863
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

24 Feb 2015

I sent a support ticket, asking if they can name a DAW that has implemented bidirectional Midi. This really interests me but i doubt such a DAW exists.

Ostermilk
Posts: 1535
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

24 Feb 2015

electrofux wrote:I sent a support ticket, asking if they can name a DAW that has implemented bidirectional Midi. This really interests me but i doubt such a DAW exists.
I guess you could also sign up as Developer to get access to the Rewire API which may help in interfacing Max with Rewire.

It's kind of why I'm not too bothered about Reason becoming a Rewire host as there's not much out there that could act as slave that I'd be interested in.  What choices are there FL, Reaper and Live?

Being able to roll your own with something like Max/M4L though may be fruitful.  I'd be interested in whatever you could come up with though for sure.

electrofux
Posts: 863
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

25 Feb 2015

I would have done so but sadly Max4Live doesnt interface with Rewire as far as i can see (Only Max does).

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tiker01
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25 Feb 2015

I always a bit confused with rewire but e.g. if I rewire Reason as a slave to Ableton I cannot use Reason as an effect as I cannot route audio into Reason, yeah?
    
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Ostermilk
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25 Feb 2015

tiker01 wrote:I always a bit confused with rewire but e.g. if I rewire Reason as a slave to Ableton I cannot use Reason as an effect as I cannot route audio into Reason, yeah?
Correct.

The host program takes control of all audio output.  You do still have access to all your Reason effects within the Reason based part of your project but you can't effect any audio that originates in the host with Reason devices.  Basically because any audio signal has already passed out of Reason by the time the host takes over.

If you think about the routing of a standalone Reason project the Hardware device normally outputs audio to your interfaces outputs, it's exactly the same thing when using Rewire except the audio is now routed out via the host app.

electrofux
Posts: 863
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

25 Feb 2015

tiker01 wrote:I always a bit confused with rewire but e.g. if I rewire Reason as a slave to Ableton I cannot use Reason as an effect as I cannot route audio into Reason, yeah?
Ostermilk wrote:
Correct.

The host program takes control of all audio output.  You do still have access to all your Reason effects within the Reason based part of your project but you can't effect any audio that originates in the host with Reason devices.  Basically because any audio signal has already passed out of Reason by the time the host takes over.

If you think about the routing of a standalone Reason project the Hardware device normally outputs audio to your interfaces outputs, it's exactly the same thing when using Rewire except the audio is now routed out via the host app.
Yeah, maybe in a standalone app it would even be possible to access Midi coming from Reason via the "proclaimed" bidiriectional Midi in Rewire 2 and if Max implements that. But standalone is not possible for this project because this is all about Push integration of Reason devices.

I have really digged deep into this and followed different routes to make it happen. Another try was to use a Midi Controller Vsti with its own Midi Inputs and Outputs (CTRL) but there were problems with that aswell so i decided on MaxforLive devices. I also thought about making a couple of Remote Scripts since their Input Output routing is separate but there are only 6 slots in Live and 2 are locked by Push (in my case Shove/Ipad).

Another problem was that all connected Reason devices should send to the corresponding Max devices in Ableton at all times not only when i have the track selected so that it doesnt matter when and where i tweak something, it should be updated in Reason, Ableton and Push.

The whole Midi Routing in Live is pretty complicated. For example if you want track Input from Push and only one other Midi device, you need to set your tracks to Push only and then make a Midi Track which accepts/monitors input from the second device and then send this Midi to the desired Push Channels.

Another issue complicating things is that all Midi going through devices on an Ableton Track are Channel 1 only.

So the solution was Maxfor Live devices sending out CCs through the external Instrument via Rewire to Reason, the Reason devices send Midi back via a locked Remote Codecs, a Midi Track in Live Monitors the Midi Input the codec is sending to, on the Midi track a Max Sender object sends that Midi directly to the corresponding MaxforLive device which also has a receiver component.

Loads of barriers to overcome. Bidirectional Midi over Rewire would leave just one click from all this overhead. But it is obviously not implemented in Live (it would need some sort of backwards Midi routing on a track). But it generally interests me if there is such a thing somewhere in the DAW world.


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Raveshaper
Posts: 1089
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

25 Feb 2015

Midi implementation in Reason is a real head scratcher for me. I can bind a multichannel controller to the midi bus and assign channels to devices and patches, the notes will be detected by the devices that are assigned to channels, but nothing records unless each track is selected individually. If I select multiple tracks, only the last one that was clicked is recorded. The singular missing piece is the ability to simply record the notes as they pass into the devices.

If Rewire 2 fixes that confusing barrier to improv composition, great! Is this an R9 feature or is it here already?
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electrofux
Posts: 863
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

26 Feb 2015

Oh, the Midi Bus doesnt record anything, it never did (dont know why they implemented it that way). Reason records either what comes in over Remote (doesnt need to be the selected channel, also locked Remote Codecs record) or Rewire but not the Midi Bus.

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