8 Years Ago, Propellerhead Was Doomed to Fail Because...

[KEVMOVE02]

Came across this post and was intrigued how the more things change, the more they stay the same:

Reason 4 - If this does not support VSTs I imagine even the faithful will drift to other DAWs like Live, Cubase, Logic. It has to be implemented at some point, but the question is will you buy this next version if they do not implement VST support. Audio in would be great,but that’s not as revolutionary as VST support in Reason. I see them going under if they fail to answer the calls of the customers, because at the end of the day, this is who pays the programmers. To bad the company doesn't reach out to there customers with planned release dates, it’s a bit nerve racking for some.

Name withheld

Will we ever accept the fact that a diversity of software, that does not have duplicate features and functions, is in the best interest of the musician and the industry? Why is there so much "feature envy?" I don't need Steinberg, Propellerhead, Ableton or Cakewalk to do the same thing better; I need them to do differently with all their heart. After Akai created the APC40, who could have predicted Push? When I first saw the Novation Launchpad, I screamed "copycat"! Now, I can't wait to get the latest version. Did we ever imagine that a controller would be designed specifically for Reason? While Propellerhead had to discontinue Balance, I am really glad they tried, because its an indicator that they have not become complacent nor compliant. They remain faithful to the same vision that produced ReBirth, ReCycle and the Reason ReFill (which turned out to be a pretty successful model for including the artists/sound designer in the creative process). It is likely that Propellerhead will make a few more products that are not successful. I'm willing to stick around to see their next creation that changes the game.  



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[EnochLight]

I hate to play devil's advocate, but to the [name withheld]'s defense, Propellerhead did introduce their answer to VST as well as audio recording.  And MIDI out (the trifecta of ERMAGERD THEY DOOMED IF THEY DO NOT ADD THEM features).

 It is likely that Propellerhead will make a few more products that are not successful. I'm willing to stick around to see their next creation that changes the game.  

Agreed!

[KEVMOVE02]

I hate to play devil's advocate, but to the [name withheld]'s defense, Propellerhead did introduce their answer to VST as well as audio recording.  And MIDI out (the trifecta of ERMAGERD THEY DOOMED IF THEY DO NOT ADD THEM features). 

True, but they did so on their terms, and people didn't necessarily love their answers. I, for one, am glad that they create an answer to VSTs, as opposed to implementing VSTs. I kind of wish they left audio as a separate application (which is why I still use Reason 5). I concede that MIDI OUT probably should have been implemented long ago, but since I don't have a stack of midi devices, I have no skin in the game. Let's have this conversation in another 8 years. LOL

[Rice]

Good point guys!

[zakalwe]

i think an awful lot of reason users did leave because of this.  these days you can mention reason on a production forum and not be greeted with a tirade of mouth breathing nerd rage which tells me they all buggered off to ableton live at some point and don't care any more.

[djfm1983]

Yeah I'm one of them. I switched over to live because the lack of many features not offered in Reason.

[EnochLight]

i think an awful lot of reason users did leave because of this.  these days you can mention reason on a production forum and not be greeted with a tirade of mouth breathing nerd rage which tells me they all buggered off to ableton live at some point and don't care any more.

Ironically, I've heard a similar statement in various forms after practically every Reason release, right back to 3.0.  If what you say were true, I would imagine things would look grim for Propellerhead... yet they keep forging ahead and seem to be doing just fine.  

[KEVMOVE02]

 Ironically, I've heard a similar statement in various forms after practically every Reason release, right back to 3.0.  If what you say were true, I would imagine things would look grim for Propellerhead... yet they keep forging ahead and seem to be doing just fine.  

In fact, that's what I was alluding to when I started this thread. People always say "this company is doomed because...", mainly because it is the tendency of people to quickly codify their complaints about a product or service (as opposed to singing their praises) when given the opportunity. Propellerhead is not a publicly traded company, so they have little concern about bad news affecting share price. They announce that Reason 8 was the most successful version to date, and almost immediately, people call them liars. Is it possible that every new feature they implement, while causing some users to leave, actually brings in far more new users? I don't know. I'm on reason 7 now. I will upgrade to 8 in about 3 weeks. I have none of the concerns or complaints that come up over and over again. Is it possible that their are far more people who like the way Reason functions now than before? We keep talking about professional studios, with professional features, but is that where most music gets made? Is that a part of the mission statement: to be the preferred audio platform in music studios around the world? Why is it so hard to believe that there are far more people with iPhones and iPad and iMacs who think composing music using Reason, Figure and Take is all they need? Who sells more units Roland or Casio? Its funny, musicians will rag on a guy for having discount, supermarket equipment, but the people dancing to their music and booking them for gigs don't care about the labels. 

[zakalwe]

Ironically, I've heard a similar statement in various forms after practically every Reason release, right back to 3.0.  If what you say were true, I would imagine things would look grim for Propellerhead... yet they keep forging ahead and seem to be doing just fine.  

i'm not saying they haven't pushed things forward, just that some people would have become frustrated by the limitations of the package and moved on.  meanwhile, propellerhead are really good at appealing and marketing to new users.  and they do seem to be doing well.

they're not doing ableton AG well though.

[EnochLight]

they're not doing ableton AG well though.

Perhaps, but is it all relative?  Ableton has over 200 employees that their revenue goes towards paying.  Propellerhead has... 25?  Maybe 30?  I can't remember.  

[KEVMOVE02]

Ironically, I've heard a similar statement in various forms after practically every Reason release, right back to 3.0.  If what you say were true, I would imagine things would look grim for Propellerhead... yet they keep forging ahead and seem to be doing just fine.  

i'm not saying they haven't pushed things forward, just that some people would have become frustrated by the limitations of the package and moved on.  meanwhile, propellerhead are really good at appealing and marketing to new users.  and they do seem to be doing well.

they're not doing ableton AG well though.

Is that the measure of success? It is not necessary to be the king of the hill, just to have more money at the end of the day than you started with. I guess I contribute to both companies success: Reason since version 4, Live since version 7.

[zakalwe]

Perhaps, but is it all relative?  Ableton has over 200 employees that their revenue goes towards paying.  Propellerhead has... 25?  Maybe 30?  I can't remember.  

yeah and ableton haven't launched their own proprietary plugin standard.  that's what i would call audacious for a small company with fairly small market share.

[zakalwe]

Is that the measure of success? It is not necessary to be the king of the hill, just to have more money at the end of the day than you started with. I guess I contribute to both companies success: Reason since version 4, Live since version 7.

it is important to have market share if you're creating a proprietary closed system.  see the tombstones of sega (hardware), commodore, SGI etc for that.

i can even remember when apple nearly joined them.  that's a rough business model.

[kitekrazy]

Perhaps, but is it all relative?  Ableton has over 200 employees that their revenue goes towards paying.  Propellerhead has... 25?  Maybe 30?  I can't remember.  

yeah and

ableton haven't launched their own proprietary plugin standard

.  that's what i would call audacious for a small company with fairly small market share.

 They do have their own instruments and an annoying library structure.

[phasys]

 It is likely that Propellerhead will make a few more products that are not successful. I'm willing to stick around to see their next creation that changes the game.  

Not going to happen. It will be more watered and dumbed down than it is already to appeal to the masses of EDM wannabe DJ's and producers.

[zakalwe]

They do have their own instruments and an annoying library structure.

pretty much every studio DAW has its own native plugin system.  but it's all internal development, they don't have to deal with 3rd party licensing and QC.  it must be a lot of work for a small firm.

[trimph1]

 It is likely that Propellerhead will make a few more products that are not successful. I'm willing to stick around to see their next creation that changes the game.  

Not going to happen. It will be more watered and dumbed down than it is already to appeal to the masses of EDM wannabe DJ's and producers.

Yoy....someone is a bit peeved.


BTW....I don't do EDM with Reason. My creatures are completely arrythmical

[zakalwe]

lol if anything i'd rant about how they're marketing it to noob guitarists who don't know reaper is $60 not electronic producers who are more likely to have left.  just my perception.

[trimph1]

:s0536: :s0225: :s0225:


I do have Reaper as well...as also Presonus Studio One...and...

[zakalwe]

reaper is so cheap why not have it? 

[trimph1]

reaper is so cheap why not have it? 

That is why I got it. It does work well too.

Reason I got Reason....oh boy...bad pun :s0106: ...was to do some experimental stuff with CV as well. Seems not many DAWs work with CV.

[plaamook]

Not going to happen. It will be more watered and dumbed down than it is already to appeal to the masses of EDM wannabe DJ's and producers.

I really hope you're wrong. I don't really even care about how much gets added (I want new samplers...) its more that I just don't want em fucking it up at this point in an attempt to appeal to ... Whoever!

[zakalwe]

reaper is so cheap why not have it? 

That is why I got it. It does work well too.

Reason I got Reason....oh boy...bad pun :s0106: ...was to do some experimental stuff with CV as well. Seems not many DAWs work with CV.

there is that, but then you have synths that have everything like that internal and then processing as well and so you wonder if that's really a needed unique.  most of the time you just want to route audio about the place, more so with reason 6, obviously.  and the likes of reaper are pretty amazing for that and i haven't even gotten to some of the signal to control stuff you can do yet.

but reaper is scary.  and i've had it since 2011 and still scary.

[Gaja]

Is that the measure of success? It is not necessary to be the king of the hill, just to have more money at the end of the day than you started with. I guess I contribute to both companies success: Reason since version 4, Live since version 7.

it is important to have market share if you're creating a proprietary closed system.  see the tombstones of sega (hardware), commodore, SGI etc for that.

i can even remember when apple nearly joined them.  that's a rough business model.

not that I have any numbers, of course, but Ernst made a public statement twice, that they are market leaders after ProTools. (Which obviously is number 1 for various reasons) so it's certainly safe to assume that they do have market share.