Propellerhead Forums

[selig]

Anyone can pull any service at any time. That's a fact also. Apple bought a DAW and made it Apple only, so you could also say, "don't get any DAW that is closed source and not on Apple, because all DAWs could be bought out by Apple so only buy Apple DAWs." That's based on history.

Google have pulled many products, so you could say, don't use YouTube because Google could at any point pull YouTube like they have with many of their previous products.

Of course any company can pull any service at any time. Have you ever heard of a legitimate company not simply pulling a forum with 13 years of information on it from a chunk of their user base, but completely deleting it? I haven't.

I'm not opposed to change btw. I'm all for change. But change that makes sense and moves people forward. What this move did is retroactive. It deleted 13 years of conversations and data. Sorry, but that's just stupid. At the very least it could have been archived. I would have been ok with that.

Most companies would try to keep the past available, while they look forward to the future.

But of course, these are all just my musings and shooting the shit with you all. We could debate business strategy to death.

I REALLY should have taken your approach to producing tutorials - I "assumed" the forums would be a safer place to post stuff, since I "assumed" they would be there as long as the Props were a company. 

That being said, Mattias IS gather stuff from the forums for archiving, or so he said when he asked me for permission to repost some of my threads. Haven't seen anything yet, but I imagine he has his hands full managing all that social media stuff.

[Reason101]

Anyone can pull any service at any time. That's a fact also. Apple bought a DAW and made it Apple only, so you could also say, "don't get any DAW that is closed source and not on Apple, because all DAWs could be bought out by Apple so only buy Apple DAWs." That's based on history.

Google have pulled many products, so you could say, don't use YouTube because Google could at any point pull YouTube like they have with many of their previous products.

Of course any company can pull any service at any time. Have you ever heard of a legitimate company not simply pulling a forum with 13 years of information on it from a chunk of their user base, but completely deleting it? I haven't.

I'm not opposed to change btw. I'm all for change. But change that makes sense and moves people forward. What this move did is retroactive. It deleted 13 years of conversations and data. Sorry, but that's just stupid. At the very least it could have been archived. I would have been ok with that.

Most companies would try to keep the past available, while they look forward to the future.

But of course, these are all just my musings and shooting the shit with you all. We could debate business strategy to death.

I REALLY should have taken your approach to producing tutorials - I "assumed" the forums would be a safer place to post stuff, since I "assumed" they would be there as long as the Props were a company. 

That being said, Mattias IS gather stuff from the forums for archiving, or so he said when he asked me for permission to repost some of my threads. Haven't seen anything yet, but I imagine he has his hands full managing all that social media stuff.

I'm not holding my breath. As they say on the Interwebs, show me or it never happened. :s0826:

As for you taking my approach, it's easy enough to start a Wordpress site Giles. I say you should go for it. I certainly know a lot of people would appreciate it, for sure -- myself included.

[selig]

Anyone can pull any service at any time. That's a fact also. Apple bought a DAW and made it Apple only, so you could also say, "don't get any DAW that is closed source and not on Apple, because all DAWs could be bought out by Apple so only buy Apple DAWs." That's based on history.

Google have pulled many products, so you could say, don't use YouTube because Google could at any point pull YouTube like they have with many of their previous products.

Of course any company can pull any service at any time. Have you ever heard of a legitimate company not simply pulling a forum with 13 years of information on it from a chunk of their user base, but completely deleting it? I haven't.

I'm not opposed to change btw. I'm all for change. But change that makes sense and moves people forward. What this move did is retroactive. It deleted 13 years of conversations and data. Sorry, but that's just stupid. At the very least it could have been archived. I would have been ok with that.

Most companies would try to keep the past available, while they look forward to the future.

But of course, these are all just my musings and shooting the shit with you all. We could debate business strategy to death.

I REALLY should have taken your approach to producing tutorials - I "assumed" the forums would be a safer place to post stuff, since I "assumed" they would be there as long as the Props were a company. 

That being said, Mattias IS gather stuff from the forums for archiving, or so he said when he asked me for permission to repost some of my threads. Haven't seen anything yet, but I imagine he has his hands full managing all that social media stuff.

I'm not holding my breath. As they say on the Interwebs, show me or it never happened. :s0826:

As for you taking my approach, it's easy enough to start a Wordpress site Giles. I say you should go for it. I certainly know a lot of people would appreciate it, for sure -- myself included.

Thanks for that, Rob, and I haven't' had the chance to welcome you aboard (welcome!) and thank you for your continued support of the Reason community!!!

[Reason101]

Thanks for that, Rob, and I haven't' had the chance to welcome you aboard (welcome!) and thank you for your continued support of the Reason community!!!

Thanks Giles! And thanks for your continued support as well. If you need help setting up your site, let me know. cheers!

[kb420]

Thanks for all of the responses.  Last night I joined 3 different Reason forums because I just didn't know which one that most of the "regular" forum contributors moved to.  I see a lot of familiar names here,  so I guess this will be my main stop for all things Reason from now on.  I still think that Propellerhead closing their forum was a bad idea,  and nothing anyone could ever tell me would change my mind.  In recent years I hadn't been as active as I have in the past,  but I would still drop in from time to time and read through some of the threads.  I honestly don't know where Propellerhead is going now.  I haven't updated to Reason 8.  I'm still on 7,  and I think it's gonna stay that way for the foreseeable future.

[zakalwe]

this forum seems like the focus right now but there's a subreddit and several others.

traffic is noticeably slower than PUF here even if most of the traffic there was complete waste.  i don't know if that's just less venting because people know this isn't the company anymore or just less users.  the latter probably.

[kitekrazy]

I suggest everyone complain to propellerhead, using their web feedback form.  it's apparently the only way to get their attention.

https://www.propellerheads.se/company/contact/

I put one in under reason since there's no much choice so i made it pertinent to its value as a reason resource, requesting that, at the very least, they re-up the database and leave it locked.

It's far from the only way to get our attention!

You can message us directly on Twitter and Facebook too, I read everything that comes in. Also, the contact link is now 

https://www.propellerheads.se/contact

- we've removed the Reason/ReCycle links and made it a general feedback contact.

But it's worth pointing out that PUF was definitely NOT the way to get our attention before. It was even in the forum rules that it was not a way to communicate with Propellerhead.

Mattias,

I don't contest that the former Propellerhead Forums were not the best way to contact Propellerhead for technical support. They were, after all,

user forums

. Most or all of the other major audio software developers also maintain [user]

forums, including:

Ableton, Avid, BitWig,

Cakewalk, Cockos, Image-Line,

Native Instruments, PreSonus and Steinberg

But honestly, I wouldn't go to any of those either expecting direct support from the developers. They too, are user forums.

I think in closing the forums, however, it may have come across as "sour grapes" to some PH users.

On the other hand, even if closing the forums was in reality an issue of being "fed up" on the part of Propellerhead, I can hardly blame them. The bile a lot of users spewed there was quite thick and bitter. (And some of it has simply moved here.)

P.S. I would also like to note that the most difficult company in the world to contact for support is Apple. Living in a friggen ivory tower, they are.
P.P.S. Personally, I hate Twitter and wish someone would kill it with fire.

Those are the forums where developers participate.  Image Line is the tops with this. Where they get it right is only people who have an Image Line product can participate.  They also can take a lot of heat from users.  They work very hard at turning enemies to friends.

If you own a EastWest license and you are slightly negative on the EW forums they will ban you.

The two worst forums at one time that reeked of fanboyism is Cakewalk and Props.   I seen this comment on the Live forums - "giving him a beatdown Sonar style".

People treat their DAWs like a religion and the slightest criticism would create a jihad from the fanboys.  I've seen some very well articulated criticisms and people get harassed for it.

Few people admit Props made some mistakes with relations to licensed users going back to Record.

BTW I like this forum. There is no beginner or advanced user forum.  I hated that. 

[Jagwah]

They closed it down because we laughed at the pineapple.

[Iapetus 9]

they were upset that people were saying they don't care about their customers so they made the point of proving them right it seems.

People have been saying that for ages. Get over it, they had actual Reasons to close the forums. How do you think they stayed in business for 20 Years? Because they don't care? Yeah sure. The Forum were used by maximum 5% of the users (it's a guess, I don't have access to actual numbers). It was a waste of company ressources.

THIS

It is rather relevant when you consider the fact that the PUF had a Gaggle, or Murder, or large handful or Reason users that in no way reflected the opinions of the larger user base. The point is, that after time,  most of the regulars disappeared and the place became a haunting ground for complaints, rants, horseshit and drunk Pro's telling everyone how bad they suck. Why in hell would you want to save that?

[MDTerps2015]

I actually just added Selig and subscribed to Phi back in the day. Phi does a really good job with his video on the tube and Selig as little as you have it is still very useful. Thank you guys very much, now i wish i could just put a WHOLE song together instead starting, stopping, starting, stopping and then starting over, LOL. 

[Jagwah]

It is rather relevant when you consider the fact that the PUF had a Gaggle, or Murder, or large handful or Reason users that in no way reflected the opinions of the larger user base.

I can't stand it when people say this. No offence intended toward you particularly Iapetus, you are not the only one that has this opinion.

Polls / statistics / estimates etc are worked out (in regards to people) by taking a group of people, gathering their opinions or statistics and multiplying those numbers to equal the entirety of the people considered in the equation.

For instance, if 80% of the hundreds of users on the forum were unhappy with the Reason 8 upgrade, you could safely assume that somewhere between 60% to 90% of the entire user base was unhappy with the upgrade.

When your evil mainstream media's 6 o'clock news has a phone poll for how happy viewers are with the current president of the country, say the results are 70% happy and 30% unhappy - you don't register that as "well Channel 32 viewers are rather happy with the current president," no, you view it as a vague representation of the population's opinion of the president.

I don't see why the PUF should be any different. Is it because some of the long timers left people seem to think that only a certain type of user was using the forum?

[ebop]

But can we assume that 80% of the PUF was unhappy with R8 when 80% of the negative posts regarding R8 were made by the same people over and over and over again which made it seem like 'everyone' was unhappy with R8. I think they call that a vocal minority. I think it's not valid to extrapolate the PUF vibe out to the population in this case.

[Gaja]

It is rather relevant when you consider the fact that the PUF had a Gaggle, or Murder, or large handful or Reason users that in no way reflected the opinions of the larger user base.

I can't stand it when people say this. No offence intended toward you particularly Iapetus, you are not the only one that has this opinion.

Polls / statistics / estimates etc are worked out (in regards to people) by taking a group of people, gathering their opinions or statistics and multiplying those numbers to equal the entirety of the people considered in the equation.

For instance, if 80% of the hundreds of users on the forum were unhappy with the Reason 8 upgrade, you could safely assume that somewhere between 60% to 90% of the entire user base was unhappy with the upgrade.

When your evil mainstream media's 6 o'clock news has a phone poll for how happy viewers are with the current president of the country, say the results are 70% happy and 30% unhappy - you don't register that as "well Channel 32 viewers are rather happy with the current president," no, you view it as a vague representation of the population's opinion of the president.

I don't see why the PUF should be any different. Is it because some of the long timers left people seem to think that only a certain type of user was using the forum?[/QUOTE
I think the problem is that on the polls only parts of the users voted, which represent parts of a larger group. I don't think the majority of a minority constitutes for a majority of the whole. According to statistics 40% vote the black party and 38% vote red, 11% voted green and 11% didn't go, or votes others. They get to this conclusion, by polling a certain amount of people. So they go out on the street and ask 5000 people, which is a lot of data to work out, but they only represent 0.1% of the 50.000.000 citizens, which is not a relevant amount.

[Jagwah]

But can we assume that 80% of the PUF was unhappy with R8 when 80% of the negative posts regarding R8 were made by the same people over and over and over again which made it seem like 'everyone' was unhappy with R8. I think they call that a vocal minority. I think it's not valid to extrapolate the PUF vibe out to the population in this case.

Yes they were vocal because they were mad, there were definitely a lot of them, and I think that anger that was generated accounts for something too... perhaps add 10% to that final estimate

I think the problem is that on the polls only parts of the users voted, which represent parts of a larger group. I don't think the majority of a minority constitutes for a majority of the whole. According to statistics 40% vote the black party and 38% vote red, 11% voted green and 11% didn't go, or votes others. They get to this conclusion, by polling a certain amount of people. So they go out on the street and ask 5000 people, which is a lot of data to work out, but they only represent 0.1% of the 50.000.000 citizens, which is not a relevant amount.

Well, polls are done for a reason - they give a vague estimate, a rough idea of what is happening with a much larger group, it makes plenty of sense to me.

[MattiasHG]

It is rather relevant when you consider the fact that the PUF had a Gaggle, or Murder, or large handful or Reason users that in no way reflected the opinions of the larger user base.

I can't stand it when people say this. No offence intended toward you particularly Iapetus, you are not the only one that has this opinion.

Polls / statistics / estimates etc are worked out (in regards to people) by taking a group of people, gathering their opinions or statistics and multiplying those numbers to equal the entirety of the people considered in the equation.

For instance, if 80% of the hundreds of users on the forum were unhappy with the Reason 8 upgrade, you could safely assume that somewhere between 60% to 90% of the entire user base was unhappy with the upgrade.

Right, except that there's an inherent bias here. In your example you're basically saying that the entire user base is perfectly represented on the forums. This was not true, and it was even problematic that it was the assumption.

A more proper way to do analytics and statistics on customer satisfaction would be to take the widest possible channel that reaches the most people and THEN ask for feedback from a completely randomly selected group. For example, via users' registered e-mails or from within the app. That would give a much more fair representation on the user base since it would, in fact, BE the user base and not a select part of it that are active in a certain place.

It's also crucial how you ask these things. It's not really valuable with a poll that would say, for example, "Would you like tons more free stuff in an upgrade, but for a much lower price?". Who wouldn't say yes to that..?

[Jagwah]

Well no of course the entirety is not perfectly represented by a smaller group, and I don't believe I said that, but I do believe when you have a substantial amount of people, say at least 100 - the majority opinion expressed by them must count for something, and give a vague representation of the opinion of the entire user base. 

I still don't understand why, that just because the users on the PUF were active and outspoken, that this makes them differ from other users.

*** If you were to poll 10% of active PUF users, then poll the same number of Reason users who had never visited the PUF - why would anyone expect a noticeable difference in the result? I sure wouldn't.

[avasopht]

*** If you were to poll 10% of active PUF users, then poll the same number of Reason users who had never visited the PUF - why would anyone expect a noticeable difference in the result? I sure wouldn't.

They're a different demographic. It's really that simple. With no data to compare you would have absolutely no idea how much they differ. And then you have the participation bias.

[Gaja]

Well no of course the entirety is not perfectly represented by a smaller group, and I don't believe I said that, but I do believe when you have a substantial amount of people, say at least 100 - the majority opinion expressed by them must count for something, and give a vague representation of the opinion of the entire user base. 

I still don't understand why, that just because the users on the PUF were active and outspoken, that this makes them differ from other users.

*** If you were to poll 10% of active PUF users, then poll the same number of Reason users who had never visited the PUF - why would anyone expect a noticeable difference in the result? I sure wouldn't.

You see I believe Matthias, when he says that he has seen numbers on sales for the Reason 8 uptake, and that these numbers indicate that the upgrade sold so many copies that it is to be considered the most successful upgrade to Reason so far.
If this is true and the Forum Polls say that only a couple of people have upgraded, then there is a huge discrepancy between numbers. Because if the poll were representative of the whole, and less than half have upgraded, it would indicate that there are so many new Reason users that even though less than half of the people upgraded it still had to be considered the most successful upgrade of Reason.

[Jagwah]

*** If you were to poll 10% of active PUF users, then poll the same number of Reason users who had never visited the PUF - why would anyone expect a noticeable difference in the result? I sure wouldn't.

They're a different demographic. It's really that simple. With no data to compare you would have absolutely no idea how much they differ. And then you have the participation bias.

As far as demographics go, they should be quite similar - all Reason users, care to elaborate?

[zakalwe]

You see I believe Matthias, when he says that he has seen numbers on sales for the Reason 8 uptake, and that these numbers indicate that the upgrade sold so many copies that it is to be considered the most successful upgrade to Reason so far. If this is true and the Forum Polls say that only a couple of people have upgraded, then there is a huge discrepancy between numbers. Because if the poll were representative of the whole, and less than half have upgraded, it would indicate that there are so many new Reason users that even though less than half of the people upgraded it still had to be considered the most successful upgrade of Reason.

i believe him too but i suspect that relatively few reason 7 users upgraded compared to earlier versions, and that active PUF users were reasonably up to date with their upgrades, being mostly 6.x or 7.x users.  it's the 7 users who feel most burned, as they were expecting a 7.5 that never happened.

of course if that's true then R9 has got to be very strong to sustain sales or it will be another R7 and uptake will not be as good.

[avasopht]

*** If you were to poll 10% of active PUF users, then poll the same number of Reason users who had never visited the PUF - why would anyone expect a noticeable difference in the result? I sure wouldn't.

They're a different demographic. It's really that simple. With no data to compare you would have absolutely no idea how much they differ. And then you have the participation bias.

As far as demographics go, they should be quite similar - all Reason users, care to elaborate?

http://www.nngroup.com/articles/partici ... nequality/

Add to the statistically higher likelihood of forum users being socially isolated and you immediately have a different demographic. Of course hard data is king and there are people here with hard data (that they don't share, but they have it).

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/un ... e-facebook

An Australian study examined personality differences between people with and without Facebook accounts (Ryan & Xenos, 2011).  People with an account were found to be more extraverted and narcissistic, whereas those without an account were found to be more conscientious and shyer.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... steem.html

They all took psychology tests to measure their levels of narcissism, which the study defined as ‘a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and an exaggerated sense of self-importance’.

Now the simple fact that regular users of facebook differ greatly in their psychological profile than those do not should give indication that it may also be the case that there are different psychographic differences between forum users and non forum users. Those differences will influence their perspective and response and may not be representative of the general public, or in this case the general Reason user.

[phasys]

They closed it because they didn't like what was being said about their new products and they found this the fastest way to shut everybody up, destroying a library with knowledge obviously wasn't something to consider. To talk about "resources" is ridiculous, running a forum costs practically nothing.

[kb420]

They closed it because they didn't like what was being said about their new products and they found this the fastest way to shut everybody up, destroying a library with knowledge obviously wasn't something to consider. To talk about "resources" is ridiculous, running a forum costs practically nothing.

That's exactly how I feel about it.

[Gaja]

It might cost practically nothing to host a forum, but to moderate one does (unless of course people do it for free).

[zakalwe]

It might cost practically nothing to host a forum, but to moderate one does (unless of course people do it for free).

it's quite usual to have regular mods who're unpaid volunteers on forums.  mostly they just have to lock threads when people are having their issues, move things that are in the wrong place, merge threads if people keep spamming new ones (a major issue on PUF) and so forth.  they have limited admin access typically.