2nd Prediction on Propellerhead Software

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avasopht
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30 Jan 2015

forensickbeats wrote:Q from the PH blog: "What you can see today is a glimpse of the future, an open internet music creation network letting anyone take part in music making, right as it happens. "

I didn`t believe that quote until I saw it myself. Are those guys at such odds with reality, are they really believing that, or do they think that the public is moronic... 



Keyword: glimpse.

Obviously Discover is at an early stage. They're declaring their vision for Discover while giving us a tiny glimpse of it's development.

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ambeant
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30 Jan 2015

KEVMOVE02 wrote:  
You say this like there are no other companies doing the exact same thing. 
raymondh wrote:
How so?
KEVMOVE02 wrote: Take a look at what Steinberg has been up to:
https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/mobile_apps.html
KEVMOVE02 wrote:
raymondh wrote:
Sure.

What is different with Propellerhead though, is that it has a proprietary plug-in format (RE's). I love it and think it is superior to VSTs in many ways, but here's the rub:

If the Reason installed base does not grow, then the RE platform is commercially less attractive for RE developers. If Prop's attentions are on other products then if I was a RE developer, I'd be more cautious about investing time and money than if I felt Props were betting their business on Reason sales. For us customers, we might see less new RE products being available, and dwindling support on existing RE products. 

If I'm using Cubase and Steinberg are off pushing other products, not promoting Cubase, then while the DAW itself may not improve a lot more, it would have little or no impact on VST developers who can sell their products to users of many other DAWs. VST developers don't need to worry about the installed base of a single DAW. So even if Cubase was disccontinued - you would know there will be cool new VSTs, ongoing support for the top tier ones etc.

As our core OSX/Windows operating systems move forward and we need support and updates from our vendors to protect our investment, we want to be reassured they're sticking around. We want to know that in the game of leap frog, Reason and our Rack extensions will continue to be at the forefront of DAW technology.

I don't give a toss about Figure, Take or Discover. I think Reason is an awesome DAW and the rack extension synths and effects are also fantastic. There's some gaps across the board that need to be addressed, and all I want to see (and we will for sure in time) is that Props are as committed to the ongoing improvement of a professional DAW and driving to make it the industry standard, and not lose that focus.





You hit the nail right on the head :)    It's a shame they cannot see this.

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forensickbeats
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31 Jan 2015

EnochLight wrote:
forensickbeats wrote:Keep on pissing the Re community off...


Image

 
EnochLight wrote:
It helps to actually type the correct URL:
 
Image
EnochLight wrote: 


Propellerhead.se, propellerheads.se, whatever, same prediction.









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ambeant
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31 Jan 2015

KEVMOVE02 wrote:  
You say this like there are no other companies doing the exact same thing. 
raymondh wrote:
How so?
KEVMOVE02 wrote: Take a look at what Steinberg has been up to:
https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/mobile_apps.html
KEVMOVE02 wrote:
raymondh wrote:
Sure.

What is different with Propellerhead though, is that it has a proprietary plug-in format (RE's). I love it and think it is superior to VSTs in many ways, but here's the rub:

If the Reason installed base does not grow, then the RE platform is commercially less attractive for RE developers. If Prop's attentions are on other products then if I was a RE developer, I'd be more cautious about investing time and money than if I felt Props were betting their business on Reason sales. For us customers, we might see less new RE products being available, and dwindling support on existing RE products. 

If I'm using Cubase and Steinberg are off pushing other products, not promoting Cubase, then while the DAW itself may not improve a lot more, it would have little or no impact on VST developers who can sell their products to users of many other DAWs. VST developers don't need to worry about the installed base of a single DAW. So even if Cubase was disccontinued - you would know there will be cool new VSTs, ongoing support for the top tier ones etc.

As our core OSX/Windows operating systems move forward and we need support and updates from our vendors to protect our investment, we want to be reassured they're sticking around. We want to know that in the game of leap frog, Reason and our Rack extensions will continue to be at the forefront of DAW technology.

I don't give a toss about Figure, Take or Discover. I think Reason is an awesome DAW and the rack extension synths and effects are also fantastic. There's some gaps across the board that need to be addressed, and all I want to see (and we will for sure in time) is that Props are as committed to the ongoing improvement of a professional DAW and driving to make it the industry standard, and not lose that focus.
KEVMOVE02 wrote:
There lies the rub: you see the development of mobile apps as detrimental to the development of Reason. That is a stretch, considering Figure, Take and Thor are built from the Reason engine, adapted for a new chipset. Since Reason did not use VST technology in the past (or present), anyone who bought Reason with the expectation that VST integration would ever occur did so at their own risk. The development of REs, as part of a closed system is contingent on one thing only, that Propellerhead continues to develop and support REs. As long as they keep the format viable, they can always enter into partnerships with plugin developers for conversion of their products to the RE format.  As far as any gaps, I think we expect more of Reason than was promised. Propellerhead never expressed an intention to make a super DAW. Their ethos is to bring music making to as many people as possible. They are not looking to take share from other platforms, they want to reach those who have never made music on a computer or mobile device before. They want to bring these newbies into an online community where they can learn and grow with each other, judgement free. They knew that a lot of users would not like this new approach, but the payoff is worth the loss. We can go along if we want, but only if we embrace this new approach. What you see as loss of focus, I see as laser focus. If you truly want a "professional daw" you will have to look elsewhere, and there is nothing wrong with that.
That's cool but why put effort in improving with upgrades when so many newbies will jumped ship once the see or hear the competition...- If you start something, why not attempt to be best?

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zakalwe
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01 Feb 2015

ambeant wrote:That's cool but why put effort in improving with upgrades when so many newbies will jumped ship once the see or hear the competition...- If you start something, why not attempt to be best?
this.  if they didn't want to make it into a proper DAW then they should have gone the other route and made the whole thing into a plugin and really worked it over so it was up to date.  a lot of pro guys use it like this via rewire.

i'm learning reaper at the moment and it's just incredible what it can do and how easy it makes life.  for example, latency compensated dry/wet knob on every plugin built into the DAW.  amazing!  i'm sure i want to spend hours fiddling about with VMG-01 and combinators instead.

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EnochLight
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01 Feb 2015

forensickbeats wrote:Propellerhead.se, propellerheads.se, whatever, same prediction.
Nostradamus agrees. 
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Data_Shrine
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01 Feb 2015

i'm learning reaper at the moment and it's just incredible what it can do and how easy it makes life.  for example, latency compensated dry/wet knob on every plugin built into the DAW.  amazing!  i'm sure i want to spend hours fiddling about with VMG-01 and combinators instead.
I also use another DAW and use RE with rewire. Reason Essential feels stiff compared to my other DAW. I mean, I like it, but I don't think as a main DAW Reason is the most user friendly around.

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CharlyCharlzz
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01 Feb 2015

ambeant wrote:This should be a poll maybe, but who believes the second prediction(PH selling out to external powers/companies like Apple or some other "secret" consortium). The first prediction already appeared that PH is only focused on the current lucrative mobile toys fad and the trendy subcultures instead of also refining the tools for serious seasoned producers releasing professionally competitive releases.  The music industry can be saved with "out of the box" thinking. A new approach to sound but they must surrender they're old thinking. IMHO

Reason should be one the forefront of innovation and industry in it's sound along with it's "out of norm" rack" paradigm.

"I like Reason and see potential but the way the world works is illogical at times and is not the standard to follow".




  I don't fallow standards .
there is no point saying they are only going to make toys from now , these toys been made with Reason materials like they been saying in a few interviews so without reason there is no toys .

they will make more toys and make more money and some of this money will get injected in Reason because it's how it goes .
I don't think Propellerhead even think about being a standard overwise they would have added vst's to rebirth or reason way back and other stuff like video dub support etc..

I think reason got a few things other dont have and it's super stable , there is a lot of professionals who make music with it because it's just so handy to use .
I think that it is usefull to have another daw and use rewire from time to time but i almost stay all in reason because it roll all good .
It does not die , it multiplies !

 7.101 and I will upgrade maybe this summer .

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bepemixer
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02 Feb 2015


Hello everyone, I think Props want to get directly to new users. We know that the power of the program we no longer need to be approached.
The channels of communication have changed.
I might also mention that if a user does not know English well could get lost in the forum.
Now I expect Props addresses the problem of the language of the application because it is a considerable problem.
I personally come from a VST global experience, but I would never go back.
The mobile world is not suitable for producing music, and I do not think that the idea of collaboration between the musicians through Discover is a great idea.
The musical ideas are difficult to share.
Now with Discover pernso Props that wants to create a community for a group of musician friends.

Reason never died that is sure!!!


However things go I wish you all good music !!
Io uso Reason perchè funziona sempre!! : :reason: :record: :recycle: :ignition: :refill: :reload:

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EnochLight
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02 Feb 2015

bepemixer wrote:The mobile world is not suitable for producing music,
Do you own a smartphone or iPad (or other tablet)? I do, and both are prefectly suited for producing music. There are more smartphones and tablets being sold currently than laptops. Propellerhead (and any other DAW manufacturer) would be remiss to not recognize that and Take some sort of action. Sure they have their limitations, but it's all part of a larger music production ecosystem.  ;)
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zakalwe
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02 Feb 2015

i don't really have a problem with them making iOS apps.  the problem i have is with them neglecting development of their flagship product.  whether that is a result of them developing their apps i have no idea, and it's an issue with a lot of the software dev.  logic fans constantly complaining about their ancient sampler, live fans batch about broken PDC etc.  reaper being full of bugs i haven't found yet.

but it's pretty grim on the reason side when you don't even have broken features.  i mean, linear automation!  how very efficient and to the point.

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EnochLight
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02 Feb 2015

I'm not sure why one would think they are neglecting Reason or core Reason features. 8.0 brought core feature requests and other additions; I would imagine 9.0 and other future versions would continue this trend. How is this grim?

Their mobile/iOS team is separate from their core app (Reason) team, though I would imagine they worked together to bring us 8.1's drop to Prop feature for Discover.
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zakalwe
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02 Feb 2015

EnochLight wrote:I'm not sure why one would think they are neglecting Reason or core Reason features. 8.0 brought core feature requests and other additions; I would imagine 9.0 and other future versions would continue this trend. How is this grim? Their mobile/iOS team is separate from their core app (Reason) team, though I would imagine they worked together to bring us 8.1's drop to Prop feature for Discover.
drag and drop and double click MIDI notes, resize from each end?

did i miss anything?

I guess we just have to wait another year and a bit for another dribble of features with a €130 price tag.

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EnochLight
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02 Feb 2015

Springheeled Jock wrote:drag and drop and double click MIDI notes, resize from each end?

did i miss anything?

I guess we just have to wait another year and a bit for another dribble of features with a €130 price tag.
Is this not advancing the platform's core features?  Drag and drop has been a major request for years, and one of the browser's biggest stumbling blocks.  The sequencer changes are welcome, no matter how small, and again - advancing the core features.

If your criticism is that it takes too long for stuff to appear, then get in line - we've been complaining about that for over a decade.  But your criticism is that Propellerhead are neglecting the core program, which is clearly not the case IMHO.  

At least the features that we do have aren't broken (well, mostly).   ;)
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zakalwe
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02 Feb 2015

EnochLight wrote:Is this not advancing the platform's core features?  Drag and drop has been a major request for years, and one of the browser's biggest stumbling blocks.  The sequencer changes are welcome, no matter how small, and again - advancing the core features.

If your criticism is that it takes too long for stuff to appear, then get in line - we've been complaining about that for over a decade.  But your criticism is that Propellerhead are neglecting the core program, which is clearly not the case IMHO.  

At least the features that we do have aren't broken (well, mostly).   ;)
yes my complaint is that it's taking them forever to do stuff and i have to wonder why.  they have a quite large team compared to the smaller devs.  i suppose what's really infuriating is that they periodically put out slick marketing vids telling you how great their reinvention of the wheel is when my other DAW is credited to just 4 guys who've never spent a bean on marketing and basically just grind down the to-do list.

KEVMOVE02
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02 Feb 2015

EnochLight wrote:Is this not advancing the platform's core features?  Drag and drop has been a major request for years, and one of the browser's biggest stumbling blocks.  The sequencer changes are welcome, no matter how small, and again - advancing the core features.

If your criticism is that it takes too long for stuff to appear, then get in line - we've been complaining about that for over a decade.  But your criticism is that Propellerhead are neglecting the core program, which is clearly not the case IMHO.  

At least the features that we do have aren't broken (well, mostly).   ;)
Springheeled Jock wrote:
yes my complaint is that it's taking them forever to do stuff and i have to wonder why.  they have a quite large team compared to the smaller devs.  i suppose what's really infuriating is that they periodically put out slick marketing vids telling you how great their reinvention of the wheel is when my other DAW is credited to just 4 guys who've never spent a bean on marketing and basically just grind down the to-do list.
Is it really taking forever when you consider how many times other software companies patch their programs? "Great new feature; too bad I can't use it" or "The program runs great... when its not crashing." One day we will realize that no company needs every single customer to agree with the their vision and mission statement to be successful. Perhaps we are at a crossroads, where the direction of the company diverts from the path you want to walk. Is it Propellerhead's obligation to stop pursuing their agenda because a a user group wants them to change focus? Of course not! There is a diversity of programs and apps available that have the common core of making music making less cumbersome. Some do better than others. I'm fascinated by this demand placed upon Propellerhead to be all things to all musicians. To even attempt such a feat would quickly lead to psychosis! I sincerely believe that most companies want to act in the best interest of their customers and community. Unfortunately, getting the goods and services you paid for is no longer good enough for some people. NEW FLASH: threatening to take your business elsewhere becomes an empty threat and a very poor way to induce cooperation. This just in: all customers hate their service providers, irregardless of actual experience. Recent polls indicate that Americans believe complaining is their obligation, even when everything goes their way!   

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ryanharlin
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02 Feb 2015

KEVMOVE02 wrote:Is it Propellerhead's obligation to stop pursuing their agenda because a a user group wants them to change focus?
This quote reminded me of a brilliant SNL parody commercial that highlights how its impossible to correctly react to a vast sea of varying opinions out there on social media and forums...


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EnochLight
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02 Feb 2015

Springheeled Jock wrote:i suppose what's really infuriating is that they periodically put out slick marketing vids telling you how great their reinvention of the wheel is when my other DAW is credited to just 4 guys who've never spent a bean on marketing and basically just grind down the to-do list.
If you're trying to compare Cockos (Reaper) development with Reason, as that's the only DAW company I know of with 4 key people, I'm afraid I can't agree that it's even a fair comparison.  

For starters, Reaper doesn't have nearly the stock instruments and samplers along with a massive sound library that comes with it.  The fact that Cockos essentially just gives you a tiny <10 MB installer is pretty telling - nothing of consequence comes with it, IMHO.  The bundled effects are... meh.. not that impressive, IMHO.  And while Reaper runs light and is a great environment to host your VST, without an arsenal of purchased VST it's almost worthless as a production tool - unless editing audio is all you need to do.

The amount of time and resources that just went into creating Reason's stock synths, samplers, and effects - along with a massive Factory Soundbank - must have been a huge effort - and now they're picking up the DAW part since Record.   

I totally understand that you're impatient for updates and features to be added to Reason, though.  I feel the same way.  We always want more and we want it yesterday, especially when our favorite DAW is in a perpetual game of "feature catch up" with most other DAW.
ryanharlin wrote:This quote reminded me of a brilliant SNL parody commercial that highlights how its impossible to correctly react to a vast sea of varying opinions out there on social media and forums...
Hah!!!  That was brilliant, and so true.  
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KEVMOVE02
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02 Feb 2015

KEVMOVE02 wrote:Is it Propellerhead's obligation to stop pursuing their agenda because a a user group wants them to change focus?
ryanharlin wrote:
This quote reminded me of a brilliant SNL parody commercial that highlights how its impossible to correctly react to a vast sea of varying opinions out there on social media and forums...

That is too hysterical! I love Crazy Eyes! LMAO

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Marco Raaphorst
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03 Feb 2015

Have a look at Thor synth for iPad. On the image on the Apple website in the left corner at the bottom it says: Powered by Reason.

I believe the Props will slowly move all their apps to mobile versions. Cool thing might be that all patches will be available on the app version as well like Thor.
They probably already have more customers who buy their apps that there are Reason users. For sure that has created this huge shift. 

KEVMOVE02
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03 Feb 2015

Marco Raaphorst wrote:Have a look at Thor synth for iPad. On the image on the Apple website in the left corner at the bottom it says: Powered by Reason.

I believe the Props will slowly move all their apps to mobile versions. Cool thing might be that all patches will be available on the app version as well like Thor.
They probably already have more customers who buy their apps that there are Reason users. For sure that has created this huge shift. 
+1000! I don't understand how so many fail to realize (or acknowledge) that Take, Figure and Thor are all byproducts of Reason. Not new products, but ports of specific code taken from Reason! So to every person who says, "I hope they make Reason for iPad someday", guess what? They have started the process! Now, I'm not saying that I know their endgame, but I am saying that I see a point of convergence between app development (iPhone/iPad) and platform development (Reason). To me, that's a good thing. I'm still struggling to understand why we are so feature driven. It's not like we use half of the features available in Reason. 

avasopht
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03 Feb 2015

Marco Raaphorst wrote:Have a look at Thor synth for iPad. On the image on the Apple website in the left corner at the bottom it says: Powered by Reason.

I believe the Props will slowly move all their apps to mobile versions. Cool thing might be that all patches will be available on the app version as well like Thor.
They probably already have more customers who buy their apps that there are Reason users. For sure that has created this huge shift. 
KEVMOVE02 wrote:
+1000! I don't understand how so many fail to realize (or acknowledge) that Take, Figure and Thor are all byproducts of Reason. Not new products, but ports of specific code taken from Reason! So to every person who says, "I hope they make Reason for iPad someday", guess what? They have started the process! Now, I'm not saying that I know their endgame, but I am saying that I see a point of convergence between app development (iPhone/iPad) and platform development (Reason). To me, that's a good thing. I'm still struggling to understand why we are so feature driven. It's not like we use half of the features available in Reason. 
You're on the right track. Although I don't know their endgame, I can see the direction they're headed in and it's one that I like and am certain others will be doing the same thing.

Having seen some of the VST3 spec (which has caused much gritted teeth in the VST community), I can see that Steinberg aimed to take VST in a particular direction too and I would not be surprised if they came out with a platform independent VST variation to allow VSTs to appear on mobile devices.

KEVMOVE02
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03 Feb 2015

Marco Raaphorst wrote:Have a look at Thor synth for iPad. On the image on the Apple website in the left corner at the bottom it says: Powered by Reason.

I believe the Props will slowly move all their apps to mobile versions. Cool thing might be that all patches will be available on the app version as well like Thor.
They probably already have more customers who buy their apps that there are Reason users. For sure that has created this huge shift. 
KEVMOVE02 wrote:
+1000! I don't understand how so many fail to realize (or acknowledge) that Take, Figure and Thor are all byproducts of Reason. Not new products, but ports of specific code taken from Reason! So to every person who says, "I hope they make Reason for iPad someday", guess what? They have started the process! Now, I'm not saying that I know their endgame, but I am saying that I see a point of convergence between app development (iPhone/iPad) and platform development (Reason). To me, that's a good thing. I'm still struggling to understand why we are so feature driven. It's not like we use half of the features available in Reason. 
avasopht wrote:
You're on the right track. Although I don't know their endgame, I can see the direction they're headed in and it's one that I like and am certain others will be doing the same thing.

Having seen some of the VST3 spec (which has caused much gritted teeth in the VST community), I can see that Steinberg aimed to take VST in a particular direction too and I would not be surprised if they came out with a platform independent VST variation to allow VSTs to appear on mobile devices.
That is very reasonable, considering other companies have already ported VST Softsynths over to IOS (PPG WaveGenerator, Cakewalk Z3TA+, Crystal Synth XT, Waldorf Nave). In fact, I have read quite a few complaints that too much porting of VSTs to the iPad has slowed development of new and existing VSTis. Could that be that the iPad installed user base is too large to ignore? I know we think profit is evil, but every business that creates a product that has a long development cycle needs a cash cow to sustain them between product release cycles. I think selling 1 million downloads at 99 cents a pop will cover the cost of doing business while waiting for a new release  to become street ready.

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raymondh
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03 Feb 2015

KEVMOVE02 wrote:I'm still struggling to understand why we are so feature driven. It's not like we use half of the features available in Reason. 
New features are part of the creative process.

Every new version of Reason had features that inspired me to write something new, or change the way I work. The new featurea are a Catalyst.

Same with new REs and Refills.

KEVMOVE02
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03 Feb 2015

KEVMOVE02 wrote:I'm still struggling to understand why we are so feature driven. It's not like we use half of the features available in Reason. 
raymondh wrote: New features are part of the creative process. Every new version of Reason had features that inspired me to write something new, or change the way I work. The new featurea are a Catalyst. Same with new REs and Refills.
Is it really new features, or is it new ways to use old features? You can change the packaging, but the sound engineering undergirding the shiny new toy is not all that new. I think many people equate new sounds with new devices. Outside of Ableton Live's Session view, I have not encountered many "new" features that couldn't be duplicated in Reason. Refills exemplify what is possible in Reason. Rack Extensions are (for the most part) cost effective, virtual recreations of classic gear. There are other ways to jump start the creative process, without having to buy new gear.  

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