Arranging in 3/4

[tibah]

To make a long story short - I'm a 4/4 guy, always done all of my music that way. Since a while I tumble around in some sort of Ambient, Electronica, going more for a fluffy couch feeling and I also just started to play around with writing in 3/4, to give myself a new challenge and also to make things a little more interesting for myself in a way.

Now for my main question - When arranging things in 4/4 you can always relate to 4 measures. 8 bar intro, 32 bar A part, 16 bar break etc. Sort of how long parts will be, markers and little arrangement help, if you will.

Now when writing parts in 3/4, how would I go about arranging them to not confuse myself? Does 3/4 also functions for the measures or section length? I tried both and to my untrained and non-musician ears it sounds *right* both ways, but maybe someone can throw a quick guideline at me!

Maybe I'm over-complicating things here.

[craven]

not sure if I understand your questions correctly, but after setting the signature to 3/4 in Reason, arrangement is similar to 4/4 but just with steps in 3 measures -> 6 bar, 12 bar, whatever you like.

check out some tracks from this thread:
http://www.looperman.com/forum/thread/180037

[tibah]

Think my explanation is somewhat wonky.

Basically, you got it right. If 4/4 correspond to 4, 8, 12, 16 bars, 3/4 would correspond to 3, 6, 9, 12 etc. At least that's what I was thinking and apparently you're on the same track. But can music written in 3/4 also be arranged, with sections lasting for 4 bars, so it also would be "hitting" bars like 4, 8, 12...? Not sure if this makes more sense though. I guess that's why I named this "Arranging".

I know the whole *no rules* thing, but as I'm just starting out with this, I would prefer to stay within a certain frame of understanding for now.

That's exactly the same link I found.

[ScavvP]

Try sticking to sections of 4 measures (or multiples of 4). Sections of three bars are very uncommon. Classical waltzes and world music with a 3/4 or 6/8 time signature are usually made up of sections of 2,4,8 or 16 measures.

If you want some examples of compositions in 3/4 listen to some waltzes on youtube (look for brahms, verdi or strauss for some well known examples). I don't expect you'll want to write classical music, but you can learn a lot and get some good ideas this way.

[Olivier]

I'd say music in 3/4 is usually arranged in 4/8/12/16 bars at the same time.
At least thats what i'm used to when i listen to it.
Most known 3/4 music in the west is probably the waltz. Its there in many varieties. From classical to more modern (for example tango waltz)
All of these i know use an even numbered amount of bars to structure the arrangement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9HAqPFpl7k
Tango vals. Just count along to the phrasing to find its arranged in even sets of bars.

Also.. a great article on this : http://www.attackmagazine.com/technique ... nce-music/


[edit] What Scavvp says, i'm always slow at posting

[tibah]

Thanks a lot to both of you! Seems to make more sense to me now and is also easier to grasp, if it comes in measures / sections I'm already familiar with. Thanks for the links eauhm.
Of course, I know waltz.

Here is my little noodle so far...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/130 ... Improv.mp3

[Olivier]

Not entirely on topic.. but i thought i get some more examples anyway

Bridge - Amon Tobin : 5/4 
Moderat - A New Error : 6/8
Eskmo - Hypercolor : 3/4 Dubstep-ey
Micronost - Got Mad Love : 5/4

All these seem to stick to even bar sections.

[tibah]

Not entirely on topic.. but i thought i get some more examples anyway

Bridge - Amon Tobin : 5/4 
Moderat - A New Error : 6/8
Eskmo - Hypercolor : 3/4 Dubstep-ey
Micronost - Got Mad Love : 5/4

Appreciated!

[selig]

I'll take a different approach and mention your original premise isn't solid IMO. 

While it's true that 4/8/12/16 bar divisions will work, and are probably more common, you can create more interest with odd lengths. Doing things like "jumping the chorus" (dropping a bar or two before the chorus the second time around) or going an extra bar or two beyond the norm will get the listener's attention because it's NOT what is expected.

Naturally you can't do the unexpected ALL of the time, and some songs need predictability while others need to keep the listener guessing. But it's certainly not "one size fits all", and the same "rules" (or lack of rules) applies to 3/4 as 4/4 - they are both "one bar" and you're basically counting bars.

If you want to get really creative, in addition to 3/4 try exploring other "triple" signature like 6/8, 12/8, or 6/4 (some of my favorites).  

[edx500]

There is a fair amount of 3/4 and 6/8 time in jazz. Here are three example from the Real Book Vol.1


Oscar Peterson Alice in Wonderland 3/4time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSNPzm_wYLY

Roland Kirk Black Diamond
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBN8mNVm2Zo


Miles Davis All Blues 6/8 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIfdYs8WErM

[Noplan]

OT but: 104 time-signature changes in just over six minutes  :s0536:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsvRBxPYC6E


I like the 5/4 signature of NINs Just like you imagined. It gives it a nice flow. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaI2qTpsgu0

[Territan]

The first track on Béla Fleck's Tales From the Acoustic Planet is titled "Up and Running," and the liner notes have this to say about it:

"If you have trouble figuring out how to count this, read the following sentences. The first part has three bars of 7 and two bars of 4. This happens two times, then one bar of 6 and two bars of 7 (three times), and a 7 and two 4s. The bridge is in 4."

EDIT: Now with YouTube goodness. The picture's static, but the music's all over the place.

[tibah]

Thansk for the other links and videos and to Selig of course!

I know, leaving or pushing one bar more can make things more interesting. I used to DJ for as long as I produced and there is a lot of anticipation involved in the type of music I was mixing, up to a point where you could mix records you didn't listen to and e.g. wait for the point where the 32 bar outro starts or a transition sound that will introduce the last section of the record. Easier of course, but also boring after years of listening and producing in one scheme only.

I guess I just wanted to get the knot out of my head for now.

In the meantime I practice to clap (and play) *simple* poly-rhythms like threes over twos. Whee!

[tibah]

Here is my little noodle so far...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/130 ... Improv.mp3

Very nice and inspiring vibe in your noodle!  Thanks for sharing.  

Thanks Peter!

[mcatalao]

(...)
If you want to get really creative, in addition to 3/4 try exploring other "triple" signature like 6/8, 12/8, or 6/4 (some of my favorites).  

Jut to say that 6/8, 12/8 and 6/4 are NOT triple signature compass, and rather binary, and fourth compound signatures.

For example 6/8 is (3+3)/8 whereas the first tempo of the compass has 3 crotches, and second tempo has 3 crotches. The 8 defines the tempo partition as crotches. It can be converted to a 3/4 changing the rhythm, but you cannot divide it the same way. What i mean is the difference between writing 3/4 to 6/8 affects greatly the rhythm. A 3/4 will be a (1),2,3 base rhythm whereas the 6/8, can either be (1), 2, (3), 4, (5), 6 or (1), 2, 3, (4), 5 ,6, or a (1), 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. If the signature is simple, you do not have many options for the strong times and cadence placement.

In complex signatures, the feel of the signature changes even more. For instance a 5/4 can be a (1),2,3,(4),5 Or a (1),2,(3),4,5. And so forth.

I like to fiddle with Compound and complex signatures, and i often fiddle from 3/4 to 4/4 to 5/4 in the same song! It's  not very pop'ish but it sure wakes up the listener.

[selig]

(...)
If you want to get really creative, in addition to 3/4 try exploring other "triple" signature like 6/8, 12/8, or 6/4 (some of my favorites).  

Jut to say that 6/8, 12/8 and 6/4 are NOT triple signature compass, and rather binary, and fourth compound signatures.

I should have said "triple based" signatures, since these all differ in that respect from the duple sigs.

FWIW, you can divide 4/4 into a 3/4 and 1/4 bar is you like…does that make it compound?

[JiggeryPokery]

3/4 can be a bit cheesy as one can easily end up going all Strauss. Beat snare snare, beat snare snare! Best avoided!

I love playing with different time signatures. I've used 5/4 a few times.

Here's an electronica track from 2005 I wrote after my guitarist friend challenged me to write a song in... well... can you work it out?

(Hint: The verse and solo sections are different )

[True]

3/4 can be a bit cheesy as one can easily end up going all Strauss. Beat snare snare, beat snare snare! Best avoided!

I'm going to disagree with that. Sure, if you're not particularly feeling 3/4 then you can end up with a waltz, but that doesn't mean others will. For example, a

1 2 & 3 | 1 & 2 & 3 | 1 2 & 3 & | X & 2 3 &

rhythm (combined between kick, snare and hi-hat) sounds fairly modern to my ears.

[JiggeryPokery]

3/4 can be a bit cheesy as one can easily end up going all Strauss. Beat snare snare, beat snare snare! Best avoided!

I'm going to disagree with that. Sure, if you're not particularly feeling 3/4 then you can end up with a waltz,

I was referring to "beat snare snare" being best avoided, not 3/4 per se

[mcatalao]

I should have said "triple based" signatures, since these all differ in that respect from the duple sigs.

FWIW, you can divide 4/4 into a 3/4 and 1/4 bar is you like…does that make it compound?

I don't think so. It's how you said, you are dividing and you can divide it however you want. 

I think the main difference is that in compound signatures the beats are not equal to the time specified by the denominator. For example for the simple time signatures,  3/4 is 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4. 4/4 = 1/4+1/4+1/4+1/4. The case of 6/8, you would have 3/8 + 3/8  or 2/8 + 2/8 +2/8, as per my example.

Am i making any sense??

[tibah]

Did you ever decide how to arrange in 3/4?

I started something in 3/4 tonight and now I'm wondering what to do.  The drum beat is four to the floor but all of the melodic elements are against it in 3/4.  I'm thinking about maybe running with 4/4 throughout and then bringing in the 3/4 elements for a climax.  I can tease in the 3/4 melodic elements over 4/4 sections and switch over to 3/4 in the climax after a break down.

I'm essentially running 2 parts, like you do. One seems like it's a four-to-the-floor housy tune and then it breaks down to half-time and a more sloppy part, to get back to "seems like" part again.

I feel you can also "cheat" a little here, using what I think are polyrhythms, where you have drums still playing against the 3/4 melodic content, but kinda overlap. Still experimenting as well!