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Social Exodus
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Post 25 Jan 2015


As I was checking out Propellerheads new website, I went to the Discovery section and sort of poked around.  What I found there was a bunch of idea starters, at least for me.  Now, I currently have Reason 7.1.1 but I am seriously thinking I want to upgrade to Reason 8.1 just to be able to access this service.  I am also considering getting a second hand iPad to get the iOS apps (I'm an Android guy).  

Then it occurred to me what must be the thought process of Propellerheads.  If they just went ahead and kept up with all the Jones (other DAWS) out there, matching feature for feature they would just be another competing DAW in an ocean full of them.  What would distinguish them from everyone else?  The Rack?  Possibly to an extent, but not all musicians are interested in the rack metaphor.  I am, but that is strange for a guitarist and it's only due to my communications background I think.  All my guitar friends look at Reason and see nothing especially attractive about it and infact ask why I'd want to screw around with that anyway lol.  I just smile and say I like to tinker with things.
But now you take a DAW that allows you to collaborate with total strangers easily and natively?  That is different as far as I can see.  I wasn't on board in the early days of Reason 1.0 so many speak of so fondly, but I have done my research and the biggest thing about Reason in those days was it wasn't just another clone of some already existent music making product.  It was a self contained music making studio with virtual instruments that anyone could use relatively easily and relatively cheaply, wasn't it?
In any event, my view on this is starting at Reason 7, but unless I am wrong Propellerheads has always been about blazing trails and not following others hasn't it?  Maybe $129 to go to a product like Reason 8.1 isn't worth it to many because the idea of collaboration isn't appealing to them.  But it IS appealing to many others, myself and especially most guitarists I know included.  Plus the Millennials are ALL about social interaction as evidenced by the absolute explosion of social media outlets that cater to them.  I personally just think the the Props are figuring out a way to blaze another new trail here, and I think they knew it would leave a few behind would resisted this kind of shift in product philosophy.  That resistance was pretty obvious from the Reason 8 announcement on to me.  But they also knew it might well garner an entire new generation of faithful who wanted a way to share their ideas for under $400, or much less with the Take and Figure iOS apps.  As I sit here thinking more about this, I can imagine another 15-20 years down the roads those (now new) Reason users pitching a batch because they shift directions completely again.
 
Thoughts?  Already been kicked around?
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zakalwe
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Post 25 Jan 2015


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Social Exodus
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Post 25 Jan 2015

Springheeled Jock wrote:https://www.freesound.org
I knew these sorts of things existed, but doesn't Reason 8.1 and Discover take this to another level by being "built in"?
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avasopht
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Post 25 Jan 2015

Springheeled Jock wrote:https://www.freesound.org
Facebook wasn't the first social networking website.

Think. About. That. For a Minute ;)

And the point I always make, most of the people contributing to Discover probably would never have bothered with freesound. It's not just the fact of what the service provides but its execution.

Thought I'd also point out that soundcloud wasn't the first web service providing free music hosting and playback, they just did it right.

If Propellerhead get this right they can make big bucks while also transforming global music collaboration. But that's if they get it right. Maybe someone else will get it right :)
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tibah
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Post 25 Jan 2015

Many moons ago, Steinberg had a plug-in / service in Cubase to stream audio to another user, to collaborate. I've seen at least one other incarnation of something alike some years later.

Then recently we saw this - http://www.ohmstudio.com/ - It has a subscription model, as far as I know, but it's real-tiime and has some other nice things about it.

I probably won't have to mention reasonstation.net which was a huge place to share project files.

Now, Discover on the other hand, doesn't offer the real-time aspect and it's based upon loading other people's audio into Reason. Persoanlly, for me it's too random. I probably would prefer a collaboration with another Reason user, but I don't need Discover for this. Basically, I could *enhance* people's Figure and Take creations, I get that. I can also download a sample, loop, MIDI from anywhere and get inspired by that. Maybe it would be something else, if you could have Figure creations split up into the MIDI tracks for the corresponding device (Thor / Kong), which seems to be not the case.

The thing is, people that need or want to collaborate had ways to do so since years. I collaborated in a project, over the internet, sharing files back in 2003. That was the beauty of the self-contain settings. Maybe this is PH answer for collaborating with Rack Extensions involved (and not having them). Streamlining the process of not to upload your project files or stems anyway. Overall it gives the whole thing a somewhat *amateurish* vibe.

Users that have Figure or Take? Of course, have someone else expand it for you. Cool idea. But not everything made by anyone would likely to get a catch by a Reason user to work on it and people that do deliver quality may already have also proper recording and producing equipment. 

And even just like a *cloud* service for someone who has Reason and a mobile app, is there a *hidden* feature? Maybe I don't want to share my new idea with the world, but work on it properly in Reason.



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zakalwe
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Post 25 Jan 2015

Siberian Khatru wrote:
Springheeled Jock wrote:https://www.freesound.org
Siberian Khatru wrote: I knew these sorts of things existed, but doesn't Reason 8.1 and Discover take this to another level by being "built in"?
well, some DAWs have integration with it.  renoise has a third party tool, for example.  it lets you browse from and load directly into the program.

really though, how hard can it be to drop a wav into reason, especially if you have 8.1?

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zakalwe
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Post 25 Jan 2015

Springheeled Jock wrote:https://www.freesound.org
avasopht wrote:
Facebook wasn't the first social networking website.

Think. About. That. For a Minute ;)

And the point I always make, most of the people contributing to Discover probably would never have bothered with freesound. It's not just the fact of what the service provides but its execution.

Thought I'd also point out that soundcloud wasn't the first web service providing free music hosting and playback, they just did it right.

If Propellerhead get this right they can make big bucks while also transforming global music collaboration. But that's 
avasopht wrote:if
avasopht wrote:
avasopht wrote:they get it right. Maybe someone else will get it right :)
alright, well with regard to 'doing it right', what copyright arrangement is the basis for discover?  freesound has three different creative commons licences.

it's all a bit of fun until someone gets 5 million hits on youtube with your guitar loop.

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avasopht
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Post 25 Jan 2015

Siberian Khatru wrote:
Springheeled Jock wrote:https://www.freesound.org
Siberian Khatru wrote: I knew these sorts of things existed, but doesn't Reason 8.1 and Discover take this to another level by being "built in"?
Springheeled Jock wrote:
well, some DAWs have integration with it.  renoise has a third party tool, for example.  it lets you browse from and load directly into the program.

really though, how hard can it be to drop a wav into reason, especially if you have 8.1?
You're missing the point. It's not about how easy it "technically" is to achieve a goal, it's about getting people to actually collaborate more often. There are many ways to improve upon what FreeSound does. This is Propellerhead's attempt to do just that.
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Post 25 Jan 2015

Siberian Khatru wrote:
Springheeled Jock wrote:https://www.freesound.org
Siberian Khatru wrote: I knew these sorts of things existed, but doesn't Reason 8.1 and Discover take this to another level by being "built in"?
Springheeled Jock wrote:
well, some DAWs have integration with it.  renoise has a third party tool, for example.  it lets you browse from and load directly into the program.

really though, how hard can it be to drop a wav into reason, especially if you have 8.1?
avasopht wrote:
You're missing the point. It's not about how easy it "technically" is to achieve a goal, it's about getting people to actually collaborate more often. There are many ways to improve upon what FreeSound does. This is Propellerhead's attempt to do just that.
 
Basically, this thought is what I was trying to capture.  Of course there are ways to collaborate already, but nothing I've seen encourages and supports it quite so easily IMHO.  You "discover" something you like and see a path with it, you upload it straight to Reason and off you go.  What could be easier?  Once upon a time, there was 4 track tape, after all.  It's the next step in this evolution as Propellerheads sees it, and they are apparently banking LARGE on it's success.
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avasopht
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Post 25 Jan 2015

Siberian Khatru wrote: Basically, this thought is what I was trying to capture.  Of course there are ways to collaborate already, but nothing I've seen encourages and supports it quite so easily IMHO.  You "discover" something you like and see a path with it, you upload it straight to Reason and off you go.  What could be easier?  Once upon a time, there was 4 track tape, after all.  It's the next step in this evolution as Propellerheads sees it, and they are apparently banking LARGE on it's success.
If done right it will be hugely successful. It's that simple. Propellerhead believe they have what it takes to be the one that gets it right.
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Post 25 Jan 2015


The very thing that made Props special, the "as little bullshit in the way of your creativity as possible" approach, is on display here IMO. I think it's forward looking.
Let's hope they still support us "I like a little BS in my mic path" peeps.
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Purpleb
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Post 25 Jan 2015

I can see props trying to reach a new crowd and trying to be ahead of the times with this.
I wish the company the best and hopefully it will be a great success for them.

For me and many others it just not appealing. Maybe in the future it will be or at least worth a try.

I just wish they did not push reason all the way to the back like it is their strange, pervy uncle.

I found it odd if Reason 8 is your biggest selling update ever then why do I need a magnify glass to find it on the main part of your site?

They should have two alternate sites or sides of their site that still coexist and collaborate with each other:

One site will look like their new set up and focus on discover, the aps, sharing, and collaborating. It will have a small focus on reason like it does. This will be geared toward the new crowd they are trying to reach: the hobbyist, icrowd, and professionals too.

The other side or site will mainly focus on their professional all in one DAW reason, rack extensions, and refills. This will have a small focus on discover and the apps, but it would still be there. This will be for the reasoners that basically been with reason forever, the pros, serious music makers, people trying to get serious about things, etc. kind of like their old site. Sure you don't have to have a forum anymore and and you can update to make it all web 3.0, scrolly, and have fugly colors to match your new look. I think this side of the site will show the icrowd and beginners that after messing with discover and the aps if you want to take the next step you can with pheads and reason. I think this is what they are trying to do, but if i was messing with their aps and discover and wanted to go further the way the site is set up now i would not want to make reason my next step because it looks like pheads do not focus on reason, it feels like it is an afterthought, like discover and the aps are their sole money maker, time getter and focus. it also feels like reason is "not professional enough" or "what the pros use" because if it was it would not be hidden on pheads own site.

I just do not think reason is basically an app or toy that should be put to the back of things. Reason competes and for me and many others wins vs all the daws out there.

That is just my opinion but whatever they do is fine with me it is their company, their money and they probably done a ton of research, etc. All i know is I own reason and i love it and am able to have fun with it and make music! Sometimes very bad music but that is not because of the reason, it is because of the user.

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Post 25 Jan 2015

Siberian Khatru wrote:
But now you take a DAW that allows you to collaborate with total strangers easily and natively?  That is different as far as I can see.

Thoughts?  Already been kicked around?
Presonus Studio One has had their exchange for quite a bit and it is integrated into the DAW (together with soundcloud and nimbit). In addition do it exist two different recording apps (one free and one extended) that connect wireless with Studio One, and they have released soundcards for iPad as well.

Steinberg has their VST Connect platform for collaboration, thought I do not know to much about it.



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zakalwe
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Post 25 Jan 2015

avasopht wrote: You're missing the point. It's not about how easy it "technically" is to achieve a goal, it's about getting people to actually collaborate more often. There are many ways to improve upon what FreeSound does. This is Propellerhead's attempt to do just that.
it was a technical point i was addressing.

i know it's early days yet but in terms of functionality for sharing sound clips it's rubbish.  no search, no download ability, limited categories.  there's really no substance to it at all.

it's probably handy if you use take because getting files off your mobile is a bit of a pain.  clouds were made for that.  otherwise i doubt it'll get much interest unless they have serious plans for it.

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avasopht
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Post 25 Jan 2015

avasopht wrote: You're missing the point. It's not about how easy it "technically" is to achieve a goal, it's about getting people to actually collaborate more often. There are many ways to improve upon what FreeSound does. This is Propellerhead's attempt to do just that.
Springheeled Jock wrote:
it was a technical point i was addressing.

i know it's early days yet but in terms of functionality for sharing sound clips it's rubbish.  no search, no download ability, limited categories.  there's really no substance to it at all.

it's probably handy if you use take because getting files off your mobile is a bit of a pain.  clouds were made for that.  otherwise i doubt it'll get much interest unless they have serious plans for it.
It's BETA at the moment, and even then given there are 1000 different directions they could go with it there is no guessing what could come of this.
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jfrichards
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Post 25 Jan 2015

I'm not exactly sure how this discussion can keep going this way without addressing this:

http://phead.mu/s/js1kYfnR

Original: HeyGoAudio
Arrangement: Adam Fielding
Vocals: Brent-Lunesis

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zakalwe
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Post 25 Jan 2015

avasopht wrote: It's BETA at the moment, and even then given there are 1000 different directions they could go with it there is no guessing what could come of this.
well it's propellerhead so it'll probably be renamed into the pCloud or something and they will hide it on their website and never talk of it again.

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Post 25 Jan 2015

jfrichards wrote:I'm not exactly sure how this discussion can keep going this way without addressing this:

http://phead.mu/s/js1kYfnR

Original: HeyGoAudio
Arrangement: Adam Fielding
Vocals: Brent-Lunesis
 
Pretty happening groove right there!  I can sense all the different influences from the different participants too.  This IS a great example of what's cool (to me) about the new path of Propellerheads as it has become clearer what the overarching plan must be.  
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Post 25 Jan 2015

jfrichards wrote:I'm not exactly sure how this discussion can keep going this way without addressing this:

http://phead.mu/s/js1kYfnR

Original: HeyGoAudio
Arrangement: Adam Fielding
Vocals: Brent-Lunesis
I'm not exactly sure how this discussion can keep going that way without pointing out this:



http://phead.mu/s/js1kYfnR
Totally Fuzzed Up by Lunesis


(That's totally awesome),

But wait, no! It's not by Lunesis

based on: Fuzzed Up Some More


Fuzzed Up Some More by adfielding

(That's pretty cool but I think I prefer Brent's)

But wait, no! It's not by adfielding either.

based on: Fuzzed Up (TripsRMX) by HeyGoAudio

(Yeah, that's kinda pretty)

But wait, no! It's not by HeyGoAudio (as you suggest above) either!

Fuzzed Up by bRA1Nb0X

(Well, um, that's almost a completely different track!)


_______________________________

It's cool hearing the different interpretations and remixes. But you can easily see copyright issues. Lunesis can't make a dime from his excellent version, unless the three people down the chain also receive credit, and that's assuming they can all even be contacted. Discover is a cool thing to play with and get inspiration from, rather than practical tool because the copyright implications are simply ridiculous.






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Ayello
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Post 25 Jan 2015

The new Protools is going that way too....with a subscription....it seems to be the new general direction...

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avasopht
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Post 25 Jan 2015

JiggeryPokery wrote:
It's cool hearing the different interpretations and remixes. But you can easily see copyright issues. Lunesis can't make a dime from his excellent version, unless the three people down the chain also receive credit, and that's assuming they can all even be contacted. Discover is a cool thing to play with and get inspiration from, rather than practical tool because the copyright implications are simply ridiculous.




Did you not read the user agreement for your 8.1 update?
3.1 You retain all of your ownership rights in the Content that you create or upload to the Sharing Services. However, by uploading Content you grant every user and Propellerhead a non-exclusive right to use your music (with the right to sublicense). The license includes a right to copy, reproduce, communicate to the public, distribute, prepare derivative works of, modify and adapt your Content – even for commercial purposes – in any and all media and distribution methods and to the extent permitted by the Terms of Service. The license applies worldwide and is royalty-free and irrevocable
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zeebot
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Post 25 Jan 2015

So basically anything you put up there from you singing in the shower to a concerto in D minor becomes free COMMERCIALLY to everyone?
So someone can take your concerto, change a note and then publish it for financial gain?
Is that what I'm reading?
I have embraced Allihoopa. Come listen and play with my crap Figure loops here:
https://allihoopa.com/zeebot

They really are crap.

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avasopht
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Post 25 Jan 2015

zeebot wrote:So basically anything you put up there from you singing in the shower to a concerto in D minor becomes free COMMERCIALLY to everyone?
So someone can take your concerto, change a note and then publish it for financial gain?
Is that what I'm reading?
Well they could, or they could use a better sample ;)
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jfrichards
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Post 25 Jan 2015

Anybody would be very very lucky for their song to be a commercial success.  If payments could not be worked out amicably between the co-authors, it would go to court for copyright infringement and a jury or judge would make a determination of who gets what.  Anyone would be so lucky as to end up in such a situation!  You should pray for that to happen to one of your songs.  But if it did get huge, many people would claim a role in that, from promoters to distributors, and rightly so because very few songs (in the realm of a handful in the history of humans) have got anywhere without large organizations behind them.

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Social Exodus
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Post 25 Jan 2015

jfrichards wrote:Anybody would be very very lucky for their song to be a commercial success.  If payments could not be worked out amicably between the co-authors, it would go to court for copyright infringement and a jury or judge would make a determination of who gets what.  Anyone would be so lucky as to end up in such a situation!  You should pray for that to happen to one of your songs.  But if it did get huge, many people would claim a role in that, from promoters to distributors, and rightly so because very few songs (in the realm of a handful in the history of humans) have got anywhere without large organizations behind them.
I don't see it as a huge leap to implement controlled collaboration AND uncontrolled collaboration.  This is likely a first step or proof of concept I am guessing.  Later, a "members only" collaborative system could easily be added for those who are more interested in the money aspects of music making.  I really do think this is aimed at the initial "cool" factor and people who just want to see what is possible, garage band style.
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