Discover?

[avasopht]

What is mindbogglingly amazing and amusing is that so many people are worried about rights to music they haven't sold, and may never sell. If everyone is truly this paranoid about intellectual property theft, why participate in an open community at all? Think about it: intellectual property includes any ideas, concepts, or solutions posted here on this (and similar) forums. What's to prevent a person from asking a question, getting responses, then using this information to earn money, without your knowledge? Someone posts a tutorial, what stops a person from plagiarizing it? if you freely share your expertise here (or other sites) then you should not be afraid to share your music. What do you do when you go to a jam session? Do you tell everybody that you won't play unless they agree to not use any notes or arrangements without your consent or compensation? The irony is IOS apps like iPolySix and iMPC have file sharing built in and users post their music for others to download and rearrange everyday. The same community that Take and Figure is targeting. So are we really worried that someone is going to steal our ideas or are we mad at Propellerhead because they made all these changes without our consent or advice? 

My thoughts exactly. 99.99% of all Reason users will never make any money from their work (or at least not enough to buy a nice meal on a weekly basis from their earnings). Hell, I've got a shed load of creations I'll never use, but I could upload them onto Discover and someone else might be able to make good use of it. I wouldn't have anyway, and maybe seeing what people have made from it will encourage me to make better use of my creations.

[Yorick]

I fear is that all of this heightened awareness will lead to Reason users not wanting to collaborate because of all this talk creates the perception that it is a certainty that your music will get lifted. The cynic in me says don't worry, because only people reading these threads are the same lot who posted to PUF, so post PUF users will probably never see this thread. What is most troubling is that there are no less than 6 threads devoted to this topic, which is crowding out any conversations related to actually making music. If I stumbled on this site right now, I would probably not come back. That's not amazing or amusing; its just sad. I guess we found a way to resurrect PUF.

IMHO people certainly shouldn't use the service until Propellerhead have a fair, individually tailorable Copyright policy in place. Other sites like Rocbattle or Soundclick or even Soundcloud allow you to post with various Creative Commons or all rights reserved for example. 

I would hope people do give pause and read up on Copyright and what it means to assign a perpetual irrevocable license, because people need to make informed decisions about what they're doing with what they love. 

[Yorick]

What is mindbogglingly amazing and amusing is that so many people are worried about rights to music they haven't sold, and may never sell. If everyone is truly this paranoid about intellectual property theft, why participate in an open community at all? Think about it: intellectual property includes any ideas, concepts, or solutions posted here on this (and similar) forums. What's to prevent a person from asking a question, getting responses, then using this information to earn money, without your knowledge? Someone posts a tutorial, what stops a person from plagiarizing it? if you freely share your expertise here (or other sites) then you should not be afraid to share your music. What do you do when you go to a jam session? Do you tell everybody that you won't play unless they agree to not use any notes or arrangements without your consent or compensation? The irony is IOS apps like iPolySix and iMPC have file sharing built in and users post their music for others to download and rearrange everyday. The same community that Take and Figure is targeting. So are we really worried that someone is going to steal our ideas or are we mad at Propellerhead because they made all these changes without our consent or advice? 

My thoughts exactly. 99.99% of all Reason users will never make any money from their work (or at least not enough to buy a nice meal on a weekly basis from their earnings). Hell, I've got a shed load of creations I'll never use, but I could upload them onto Discover and someone else might be able to make good use of it. I wouldn't have anyway, and maybe seeing what people have made from it will encourage me to make better use of my creations.

With a few laws requiring equitable profitsharing on Spotify, Pandora and YouTube, the whole landscape could drastically change. People would suddenly be making real money from music again. But any license you've assigned here on Discover would still be in effect. 
If you're fine just handing off those rights for the rest of your life, despite what may or may not change in 50 years, then go for it. 
But I know people who were signed to record companies for life for no royalties (It'll promote your live show!) who later sorely regretted their decision, so I have a responsibility to share the information as I understand it.

[KEVMOVE02]

What is mindbogglingly amazing and amusing is that so many people are worried about rights to music they haven't sold, and may never sell. If everyone is truly this paranoid about intellectual property theft, why participate in an open community at all? Think about it: intellectual property includes any ideas, concepts, or solutions posted here on this (and similar) forums. What's to prevent a person from asking a question, getting responses, then using this information to earn money, without your knowledge? Someone posts a tutorial, what stops a person from plagiarizing it? if you freely share your expertise here (or other sites) then you should not be afraid to share your music. What do you do when you go to a jam session? Do you tell everybody that you won't play unless they agree to not use any notes or arrangements without your consent or compensation? The irony is IOS apps like iPolySix and iMPC have file sharing built in and users post their music for others to download and rearrange everyday. The same community that Take and Figure is targeting. So are we really worried that someone is going to steal our ideas or are we mad at Propellerhead because they made all these changes without our consent or advice? 

If you're not worried that people are going to steal your ideas, that's fine. I'm not worried that people will steal my ideas on Discover, because I'm not posting them there.

What people feel free to share may depend a lot on what they intend to make money from in the future. I don't consider myself an expert, but I'll say I'm happy to share my thoughts on rights because I don't plan to make money from the explanation of them that I've used here. Having said that, there are no intellectual property rights in ideas - only in the form that they take (though that does include compositions, not just recordings). I'm especially happy to share my thoughts about rights because it seems obvious that many people, who may potentially want to make money from music in the future, have questions that they need to understand the answers to before they share their music on Discover if they don't want to ruin some of the opportunities that may lie ahead for them. And I would suggest to anyone who doesn't think Discover could ruin some future opportunities should do some reading about copyrights and music industry generally.

As for jam sessions, while it is obvious to most people that it would be offensive to make everyone sign some kind of agreement before taking part, the fact is that if musical ideas are recorded and later used in a commercially successful recording, any contributor of creative ideas who doesn't receive the default royalties can sue. So people need to understand this stuff. And understanding it before you sell stuff is exactly when you should understand it - not after you've become an amazing high-selling artist. Usually there are few legal disputes until there's money involved. And by then it's too late to write agreements.

Wouldn't be more prudent and productive to educate people about entertainment and copyright law? The topic "The rights that all musicians need to know" moves this conversation beyond the discussion about a collaborating service that is still in beta to one that often gets neglected, overlooked and ignored. One of the most sobering examples copyright ignorance is Grandmaster Caz and Sugar Hill Records. Can you imagine listening to your rap lyrics being performed millions of times, you didn't get paid for them (because you trusted your manager) and legally, and the label sues you for any performance that sounds like the original? 

[Yorick]

Can you imagine listening to your rap lyrics being performed millions of times, you didn't get paid for them (because you trusted your manager) and legally, and the label sues you for any performance that sounds like the original? 

Or you trusted Discover. That's a very real possibility. Anyone who uploaded a rap to Take could have that situation occur.

[KEVMOVE02]

I fear is that all of this heightened awareness will lead to Reason users not wanting to collaborate because of all this talk creates the perception that it is a certainty that your music will get lifted. The cynic in me says don't worry, because only people reading these threads are the same lot who posted to PUF, so post PUF users will probably never see this thread. What is most troubling is that there are no less than 6 threads devoted to this topic, which is crowding out any conversations related to actually making music. If I stumbled on this site right now, I would probably not come back. That's not amazing or amusing; its just sad. I guess we found a way to resurrect PUF.

IMHO people certainly shouldn't use the service until Propellerhead have a fair, individually tailorable Copyright policy in place. Other sites like Rocbattle or Soundclick or even Soundcloud allow you to post with various Creative Commons or all rights reserved for example. 

I would hope people do give pause and read up on Copyright and what it means to assign a perpetual irrevocable license, because people need to make informed decisions about what they're doing with what they love. 

In your experience, do people act in their own best interest? 

[Yorick]

In your experience, do people act in their own best interest? 

Some do yes. The success rate of Alcoholics Anonymous is testimony to that for example. With certain self-esteeming information - that God loves them, that who they are is valuable, that they have worth, that what they do matters, that their decisions have eternal consequences, yes, people can and do make decisions to act in ways that benefit themselves. I've seen it; and I've frustratingly seen people who stay in the same self-destructive cycles, unable to accept that they are loved, that they are valuable and who they are matters. It's heartbreaking. There but for the grace of God go we all.

[EnochLight]

In your experience, do people act in their own best interest? 

Some do yes. The success rate of Alcoholics Anonymous is testimony to that for example. With certain self-esteeming information - that God loves them, that who they are is valuable, that they have worth, that what they do matters, that their decisions have eternal consequences, yes, people can and do make decisions to act in ways that benefit themselves. I've seen it; and I've frustratingly seen people who stay in the same self-destructive cycles, unable to accept that they are loved, that they are valuable and who they are matters. It's heartbreaking. There but for the grace of God go we all.

Yorick,

Please keep religious content out of the forums.  

Thanks

http://www.reasontalk.com/post/forum-ru ... 1285805423

[Yorick]

In your experience, do people act in their own best interest? 

Some do yes. The success rate of Alcoholics Anonymous is testimony to that for example. With certain self-esteeming information - that God loves them, that who they are is valuable, that they have worth, that what they do matters, that their decisions have eternal consequences, yes, people can and do make decisions to act in ways that benefit themselves. I've seen it; and I've frustratingly seen people who stay in the same self-destructive cycles, unable to accept that they are loved, that they are valuable and who they are matters. It's heartbreaking. There but for the grace of God go we all.

Yorick,

Please keep religious content out of the forums.  

Thanks

http://www.reasontalk.com/post/forum-ru ... 1285805423

Ok then, if I can't mention God in a post I'm done with the forum. That was the single worst thing about the PUF.

See ya round kids. I'm out. Hit me up on Soundcloud or something.

[avasopht]

With a few laws requiring equitable profitsharing on Spotify, Pandora and YouTube, the whole landscape could drastically change. People would suddenly be making real money from music again. But any license you've assigned here on Discover would still be in effect. 
If you're fine just handing off those rights for the rest of your life, despite what may or may not change in 50 years, then go for it. 
But I know people who were signed to record companies for life for no royalties (It'll promote your live show!) who later sorely regretted their decision, so I have a responsibility to share the information as I understand it.

Not disagreeing with that at all, I'm all for profit sharing and win/win economics. My main point is that 99.999% of all music created by bedroom musicians will not only never see the light of day, but will not make a single dime simply because there is no need to share it.

I'm going to upload a bunch of old shit I did years ago that I thought I deleted because I can't make any use of it. They're not entirely crap, in fact they're great, I just don't know how to use them and I don't have enough of them to warrant a Refill. Or maybe I do. Maybe I'll just make a Refill. Yeah.

[KEVMOVE02]

In your experience, do people act in their own best interest? 

Some do yes. The success rate of Alcoholics Anonymous is testimony to that for example. With certain self-esteeming information - that God loves them, that who they are is valuable, that they have worth, that what they do matters, that their decisions have eternal consequences, yes, people can and do make decisions to act in ways that benefit themselves. I've seen it; and I've frustratingly seen people who stay in the same self-destructive cycles, unable to accept that they are loved, that they are valuable and who they are matters. It's heartbreaking. There but for the grace of God go we all.

While I mostly agree with the shout out to AA, what does that have to do with awareness of copyrights as related to collaboration services?

[EnochLight]

I'm going to upload a bunch of old shit I did years ago that I thought I deleted because I can't make any use of it. They're not entirely crap, in fact they're great, I just don't know how to use them and I don't have enough of them to warrant a Refill..

Hmmm... you've got me thinking - that's a GREAT idea. I have a lot of early content (short loops, song phrases, ideas) that I haven't touched in years and have no idea what to do with. I could drop to Discover at public links and see if anyone can add or change it into something I could use.

Brilliant. 

[jonheal]

If you're going to whack a guy for simply using the word "God" in the sense of a personification (which by the way, I think hardly counts as "religious" talk), then I think discussion of other similarly structured thinking like philosophy and theoretical physics should be banned, too.

[xDJDroidx]

So, with all this debate about copyright, has anyone considered refills.

If I make something using refills that I have purchased (which gives ME the rights to use it) and upload it, is anyone who then uses those sounds breaching any copyright? Or even worse, have I breached the copyright?

I could for example take something like a "prime loops" construction kit (in rex format), arrange it in reason and upload it to discover. By doing this have I breached the terms of my agreement with Prime Loops?

I'm ok to use the refill in my own production, but by sharing any songs that contain sounds from this refill on discover for others to then use in their production..........

Seems like there are quite a few "grey" areas here.

[KEVMOVE02]

In your experience, do people act in their own best interest? 

Some do yes. The success rate of Alcoholics Anonymous is testimony to that for example. With certain self-esteeming information - that God loves them, that who they are is valuable, that they have worth, that what they do matters, that their decisions have eternal consequences, yes, people can and do make decisions to act in ways that benefit themselves. I've seen it; and I've frustratingly seen people who stay in the same self-destructive cycles, unable to accept that they are loved, that they are valuable and who they are matters. It's heartbreaking. There but for the grace of God go we all.

Yorick,

Please keep religious content out of the forums.  

Thanks

http://www.reasontalk.com/post/forum-ru ... 1285805423

Ok then, if I can't mention God in a post I'm done with the forum. That was the single worst thing about the PUF. See ya round kids. I'm out. Hit me up on Soundcloud or something.

Now that is irony: a person trying to get everyone to read the fine print related to Discover gets mad and leaves because he does not want to comply with the small print related to Reasontalk. I hope all those who think that Discover is a bad idea would choose to not talk about it anymore, as opposed to steamrolling the forum with the multiple threads about the same thing. Time to change the channel.

[dmcghee]

Let's put aside copyright issues for a while. Another unprofessional scenario is:

I am a keyboard player who can't play guitar but I use sampled guitar in my compositions. If I find a guitar player with Reason 8.1 who is willing to overdub guitar parts and to send them back to me (privately) as dry mono stems for further mixing/FX processing, he's not able to do it. Reason simply uploads only master stereo track to Discover AFAIK.

That's not true, you can upload signal tracks by pulling down the volume on the tracks you don't want to upload in Take. Bringing the the faders down would be the same as muting tracks.

[paulred67]

But they'll still be stereo tracks, not mono. I know there is a workaround by narrowing the width in the mixer channel but it's not the same as mono stems.

[Jagwah]

I found this interesting. This guy is really in to video games, and he looks forward to the Superbowl game advertisements to catch new ads for new games. This year, it seems the mobile market is taking over, he has some good point to make about the mobile market.

Skip the video to 2.22, that's where he is talking about it:

 

[Tre Trelos]

In your experience, do people act in their own best interest? 

Some do yes. The success rate of Alcoholics Anonymous is testimony to that for example. With certain self-esteeming information - that God loves them, that who they are is valuable, that they have worth, that what they do matters, that their decisions have eternal consequences, yes, people can and do make decisions to act in ways that benefit themselves. I've seen it; and I've frustratingly seen people who stay in the same self-destructive cycles, unable to accept that they are loved, that they are valuable and who they are matters. It's heartbreaking. There but for the grace of God go we all.

Yorick,

Please keep religious content out of the forums.  

Thanks

http://www.reasontalk.com/post/forum-ru ... 1285805423

[Personal insults removed. Do not make personal insults on this forum]

[craven]

there is a reason certain topics are not allowed on this kind of music boards
it just does not end well most of the time. Also there are many other ways of discussing religion etc. with a member, just PM and take it from there.

[EnochLight]

The OP did not post a topic about religion and politics. He posted the word "God" in a topic about Discover.
Technically it fails to count as a violation of the forum "law".

- God loves them,

- their decisions have eternal consequences,

- they are loved (by God)

 - There but for the grace of God go we all.

Seemed pretty religious to me. 

[selig]

Come on folks, now you're arguing over what is "religious" or not - technically speaking, that's the job of the mods. 

The title of this thread is "Discover?"  - please try to stay on topic!

[EnochLight]

Fair point.  Back on topic!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at33phHJOcA

[jappe]

The OP did not post a topic about religion and politics. He posted the word "God" in a topic about Discover.
Technically it fails to count as a violation of the forum "law".

- God loves them,

- their decisions have eternal consequences,

- they are loved (by God)

 - There but for the grace of God go we all.

Seemed pretty religious to me. 

"In your experience, do people act in their own best interest? "

That was the question Yorick replied to, and I completely understand how he involves his obviously strong belief in God in his reply as it is relevant - he was asked about his experience.

I think it's best if the moderator could step in rather quickly and say whether that was over the line or not.