Vocal experts/teachers/students, advice/feedback needed

This forum is for discussing Reason. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
User avatar
JNeffLind
Posts: 977
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: So. Illinois, USA

Post 21 Jan 2015

Hello all. Once upon a time I was a good singer (not great but good). Then I got into mma and submission grappling and had my throat smashed repeatedly by some pissed off roid monsters and lost all ability to sing. Now I'm trying to rehab.

I've been looking for vocal exercises online and most are just teasers to try to get you to pay for lessons. I can't afford this, so I'm looking for some advice. There's one video I found that seemed to be a legit "workout" but I don't  know how well done it is. It's posted below. Anyone familiar with these types of exercises?

(If you don't feel like watching it's exercises singing "mi " then "ee", then "ungi/ongay", then "ning/nyah" then scales on an "operatic ee.")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwC4qfpZLoo

Would I be better off just singing scales? If so, what vowels or sounds/words should I sing them on?

How about something like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxVSe2rEyg0

I'll never likely be an amazing singer, but just trying to at least get back to good. Advice? Recommendations?

I'm not afraid of hard work or drudgery. Don't need something fun, just whatever will be the most effective way to spend the time I devote to improving my singing.

User avatar
eusti
Moderator
Posts: 2769
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 21 Jan 2015

Since you are trying to recover from some kind of injury I would suggest to find a good vocal teacher to get you restarted. I know that is not what you want to hear, because of the costs, but I feel that especially in your case it would be good to get restarted this way as not to re-injure yourself more or get into some bad habits that will cause you more problems in the end.

Julibee might be a good person to ask as she has had more classical training and is an expert.

D.

User avatar
JNeffLind
Posts: 977
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: So. Illinois, USA

Post 21 Jan 2015

Thanks for the input. It's actually been two years since the injury if that makes any difference. Details: I was completely mute for two weeks, then three weeks of having "lost my voice" meaning I could only speak in a croaky whisper, then I could talk fine for about six months but could only sing three notes in my lowest register (and not very well!) and since then I've started to get range back bit by bit. I can now sing a couple octaves but I'm still missing notes I used to be able to sing at the top of my range and all the notes are weaker, etc. Can't really yell like I once could, etc.

User avatar
eusti
Moderator
Posts: 2769
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 21 Jan 2015

As the whole "instrument" is somewhat fragile and intricate I think it's best to consult a professional in person who can best judge what the best approach might be.

D.

User avatar
Julibee
Posts: 291
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Southern California

Post 21 Jan 2015


The first video is giving me voice lesson nightmares, if that helps.
 
Meaning: YES, exactly. The major difference being the part at about 1:37 where she straightens up and runs her hand up through her body and up and over the top of her head-- that's where I always had my hair pulled HARD. But, otherwise, spot on. ;)
 
I never did the siren thing in the very beginning, and if you've had an injury, I'd be SUPER careful trying it until you know your range and abilities. Not everyone can easily sing in multiple octaves, but most of us can get to a MUCH larger range through practice just like this. We did have similar exercise, though. This is as good as any. However, I wouldn't actually START with the siren thing. I'd start with some easy scales from my lower range, and work my way up.  
 
What she's doing with vocalizations in different tones is simply practicing the way in which she controls each vowel sound-- this matters because your physiology will change around the way you use the sounds, even on the same pitch. For instance, "eeee" is very closed at the top of your soft palate, while "ah" is wide open. Naturally, "Ah" is an easier sound to produce within a given tone, and it's common practice to lean to sing "eee" tones as a sort of modified "ah" sound. That's one reason why enunciation in classical music might sound a little "off" or over/under enunciated-- we modify the sounds to better fit the voice. EDIT TO ADD: In fact, you may find even in the same scale that you are changing the way you vocalize a sound, just to "hit" the note.  The trick here, is to find the place in your physiology - where your soft palate and tongue meet, the space between, etc - that the note not only is pitched properly, but enunciated well to boot. it changes along the scale sometimes, depending.
 
So, is practicing scales in different tones beneficial? Absolutely. In fact, scales will not only allow you to better control how you sing words in a song, but also can boost your range, which I think is what you are after.  Practice makes perfect. Yup.
 
These scales would do just fine. Scales also serve to warm up your mouth muscles, and we used to sing stuff like, "Many Mumbling Mice are making midnight music in the moonlight mighty nice, Miiiiiiiice" (that last miiiiice is an octave slide up and down). Then, we'd repeat it a half step up. Over and over. And then some. Ad infinitum.
 
Another thing: I always had a cassette tape of my latest lesson (oh! The 80s/90s!) and listened between lessons while I practiced. It was easier to hear where I was having difficulties, as what we hear inside our own heads is often very different from what we might hear with our ears. Taping/recording lessons gave some distance from the actual act of singing. Learning to hear yourself is definitely a large part of the education.
 
Another note: I don't have pop training-- And, I know there are other methods of singing-- but in my classical training, it is *very* important to consciously keep you chin "tucked in" as the first video shows.  If you find yourself raising your chin, it's highly likely that you are straining to hit a note, and it's easy to push it too far. Sounds not terrible, I realize, but in the studio under deadline, you may not have a good recovery period, and over time, this straining can do all sorts of damage. 
 
Practice where your chest voice needs to flip into falsetto. USE the falsetto, and learn to modify it so it's not a total opera sound, but something that you can use with pop (just using the word "pop" as a general use term, here... I'm not accusing anyone of being a bubblegum star). Being able to go from chest to falsetto without a break is important if you want to use your full range.  She calls it her "head voice" in this vid. Many do. And, if you pay attention, it really DOES feel like it starts to emanate from your head, rather than your chest/throat. 
 
Practice going low, too, of course. Range can expand both ways. Low was never my thing (back in the day, I was a Coloratura Soprano. No longer, though (thanks Marlboro Man, you bastard). I wasn't often needed down loooooow. 
 
Actually pretty much everything she says is right on. The main thing is to practice practice practice. I swear anyone can learn. Except my dad. My dad is tone deaf. Don't be my dad. 
 
 
* How screamo/heavy metal style happens, I have no idea, but there is a method that doesn't destroy your voice... But unless properly done, you WILL roach your throat terribly. Don't do it unless you know how. Really. Don't. 
I'm still doing it wrong.
8.1    
Bandcamp | Soundcloud | Twitter | .com

User avatar
Julibee
Posts: 291
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Southern California

Post 21 Jan 2015

Oh... Another super important thing...

Support. I earlier said something about singers needing to stand, and Giles pointed out that not everyone does (he was absolutely right). However, to practice, I WILL stand by (haha) my original thought. Stand up. Because you want your hips tucked in, in line with the rest of your body, stand comfortably, relax, yet stay firm... Why? Well, to truly support the sound, to practice the sounds, you need full control over your breathing and diaphragm.

Where's the diaphragm? Put your hand under your rib cage, on your waist. Now, move your hands inward near your abdomen and Take a deep breath-- breathing DEEP down is different than filling your lungs with air. This is another key element-- start exhaling sharply, HA HA HAAAH, and feel where the muscles are contracting. If you are using your diaphragm, you'll feel your abdominal area move sharply inward with each "HA". Practice this. Really. You need to know where the support should be coming from, good support can make or break you.

Breathing deep down is different from filling your lungs with air. Yes, I said that twice. Fill up from the bottom-- expand your rib cage as you breathe and visualize your lungs filling from the bottom. You won't be PUSHING air with your lungs or collapsing your rib cage, you will be supporting your air and breath by pushing from your diaphragm. It all works together. This takes some getting used to. But its the "good way" to sing, and even a pop singer can benefit from proper breathing technique. 
I'm still doing it wrong.
8.1    
Bandcamp | Soundcloud | Twitter | .com

User avatar
JNeffLind
Posts: 977
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: So. Illinois, USA

Post 21 Jan 2015

Wow Julibee. Thanks for the super thorough response. You may have been focused on opera but you're a rock star in my book.

One specific question if I may. The last exercise she does where she says to yawn first and mimic that sound with a sort of Pavarotti kind of voice, what is that specifically targeting? Is that only so that one can sing in that style, or does that work the vocals in a way that is different from how just singing a "normal" ee sound would? I.e. is that exercise geared towards opera singers or will it be beneficial for pop singers as well. I know every little bit helps, but would I be better doing something else, like just singing ee sounds as opposed to developing muscles I won't end up using?

Also, should I work on singing intervals or focus more on scales in terms of strengthening my voice? I can hit intervals pretty well when I'm singing so I'm not terribly worried about developing accuracy in that regard, more just getting the most "bang for the buck" in terms of hours put into practicing versus rewards reaped in strength/tone/etc.

And one last thing... Since it sounds like ee is the hardest to sing, should I focus primarily on singing scales on that to develop all tones, or is equal variation better? I.e. if I can bench press 500 pounds (I can't) I know I can also do 200. If I can do it all on "ee" does that mean I can likely do it all on ah, oh, uh, oo, etc. or should I focus equally on all those?

I guess that's three specific questions. Sorry, I'm greedy.

Also, I'm sorry you got your hair pulled. I'm currently pulling my own hair in sympathy. ;)

User avatar
zwerggle
Posts: 27
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

Post 21 Jan 2015

I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but the siren things sounds like a terrible idea unless you're properly warmed up. I agree that I would start with easy notes first then move to harder notes after that.

User avatar
Yorick
Posts: 173
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 21 Jan 2015

zwerggle wrote:I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but the siren things sounds like a terrible idea unless you're properly warmed up. I agree that I would start with easy notes first then move to harder notes after that.
The siren IS a warm up exercise....  

JNeff, too much to go into here. I do teach voice - though nowhere near as much these days as I used to - and to be honest it really is better getting a personal lesson because of the variables and uniqueness of each person's voice. I tailor exercises and advice to each person's unique situation. Not only because of range, tonal or stylistic differences, but that some voices are more robust than others, some might be more damaged than others, or possessing any of the host of inhibiting factors than prevent a person from singing clearly, confidantly, with strength, support and emotional conviction.

If you like we could try a skype lesson or something? I could at least hear what's going on with your voice, and recommend things based on what I'm hearing.

Good luck with it regardless though! :) If you have someone local, I seriously recommend going and at least getting a consultation.
 
 

User avatar
Julibee
Posts: 291
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Southern California

Post 21 Jan 2015

Heck. I was just happy to have a question here that I can answer with certainty. In this ONE instance, you can ignore my forum signature. ;)

As for the "yawn"... This is a technique to demonstrate how it FEELS when your soft palate is wide and open and most ready to deliver a good tone. Pay attention to three things:

1.) The feeling of openness in the back of the throat
2.) The lift of the soft palate (that place in the top, back of your throat, right before your uvula)
3.) Your tongue placement (during a yawn, your tongue moves out of the way of the soft palate in the back, and behind the teeth, in the front, yes?)

So this is essentially a demonstration of an ideal whole mouth position. "Good singing feels like a yawn" so to speak, at least as far as the structure of your mouth. Think of the singing in Disney's "The Little Mermaid" when Ursula is taking Ariel's voice... That whole thing is the yawn "Ah".

So, try it. Open your mouth as if to yawn, but sing through it, instead of actually yawning*. It should be an "Ah" sound. Here is where the technique of shaping the sounds comes in. Make the "Ah" yawn again, but this time, slowly collapse the sound slowly into an "eee". Feel the closing down of the soft palate? How your tongue moves and wants to block the flow of air and tone? Hence the trick being to maintain as much of that open "Ah" as possible while forming the "eee". Practice closing in from the Ah to different vowel sounds-- Ooh, Uh, Eee, Ehh, Iiii, Iihhh, etc. Feel and make note of the structural changes and try to remember which positioning strikes a balance between ideal "Ah" and the vowel you need to use. Make sense?

Yes, this is probably most specific to an operatic style, but also useful to know as a pop singer. A good pop singer has good technique as well. It's totally fine to sing pop (I do it all the time), but knowing and incorporating good methodology where you need it can't hurt. To answer your actual question, though, You WILL be using the "same muscles" in any case-- so it's good to know how to use them to their best advantage, and to exercise them. Will you always choose to sing something in this way? No. I dont. But being able to do so gives me a LOT more flexibility, and flexibility is a valued trait for a musician of any kind. Truth.

Singing scales will warm up your voice in preparation to sing and also will exercise/work on your range. I rarely sing scales to be honest. I SHOULD sing scales. I dont... Not much... I tend to just start singing gently and know that it's unlikely my first few takes will be worth a damn.

INTERVAL training is a different animal, is also important, and for different reasons. Being able to vault from octave to octave is always useful... Practicing thirds or whatever maybe even more so. Interval training is muscle memory. Even if your style is to lazily glide from one tone to the next, you still have to know when you get there. If you can easily hit an F from a C, and with precision, it makes the move from a C to an E-lazy-slide/gliss-to-F so much easier.

We used to do an exercise called "Solfege" for intervals. Basically, Solfege is the Do Re Mi assignment of a note in the scale... Applied to music notation, and sung instead of words. So, you have a piece of music, and instead of word-words, you sing "Do" for C, "Re" for D, "Mi" for E, "Fa" for F, "Sol" for G, "La" for A, "Ti" for B, etc... It's like the Sound of Music in real life, and sight singing instead of knowing the melody by heart. Muscle memory. Good for practicing both intervals and sight reading/singing. Yeah, I HATED that class. ;) .

So, practicing intervals and practicing scales are both very useful. Generally speaking, I wouldn't overlook one for the other, but in your case, to recoup what was lost, I'd first focus on scales to regain my singing strength. Keep in mind that age alone can take away what once was yours, and adjust your expectations as you go along. I do not have the range that I once did (I could sing that high C in Phantom of the Opera, no sweat... Lucky to hit a G twenty years later). I also don't PRACTICE like I used to. So. If I put in the time, I know I could at least get back to the B. But I also know my voice very well, and I know my limitations. Tread lightly at first, if it's something you value.

Also, I don't think you can equate singing tones to lifting weights, no. Just because you have a REALLY NICE "Ah" sound, it doesn't necessarily follow that you know where to best place your "ihhh". Seriously, though, you can run through these scales five or ten minutes a day. No biggie. It's not going to happen over night, and practicing for hours on end at first might do more harm than good. Give it some time, learn to judge your limits and where and how to press them.

I would actually LOVE to hear from anyone who has had training for other methods of singing. I really, really would. I'm sure there are particular techniques taught for chest voice, as there are for how to really yell without killing yourself-- I don't know any of this. There are schools for pop singing in LA, etc... I was really lucky that there were a couple of Metropolitan Opera House people in my neck of the woods growing up in Ohio-- nevermind screamo people. :)

*Everyone reading this just yawned for real. Maybe several times. Sorry. :)
I'm still doing it wrong.
8.1    
Bandcamp | Soundcloud | Twitter | .com

User avatar
eusti
Moderator
Posts: 2769
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 21 Jan 2015

This is fascinating to read! Thanks to both Julibee and Yorick!

D.

User avatar
Julibee
Posts: 291
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Southern California

Post 21 Jan 2015

Just for kicks... I don't think anyone here has ever heard me with my true opera voice. Here it is.

'O Mio Babbino Caro' was my signature aria, back in the day. This is a recording from three or four years ago, before I got into Reason, and someone else has mixed it. The midi instruments are not fabulous. I haven't used SoundCLICK since I started with Reason. Anything on there is pretty bad. ;)

Anyway, proof that I can use my opera voice. LOL

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=9113678
I'm still doing it wrong.
8.1    
Bandcamp | Soundcloud | Twitter | .com

User avatar
JNeffLind
Posts: 977
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: So. Illinois, USA

Post 21 Jan 2015

Yorick wrote:
zwerggle wrote:I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but the siren things sounds like a terrible idea unless you're properly warmed up. I agree that I would start with easy notes first then move to harder notes after that.
Yorick wrote:
The siren IS a warm up exercise....  

JNeff, too much to go into here. I do teach voice - though nowhere near as much these days as I used to - and to be honest it really is better getting a personal lesson because of the variables and uniqueness of each person's voice. I tailor exercises and advice to each person's unique situation. Not only because of range, tonal or stylistic differences, but that some voices are more robust than others, some might be more damaged than others, or possessing any of the host of inhibiting factors than prevent a person from singing clearly, confidantly, with strength, support and emotional conviction.

If you like we could try a skype lesson or something? I could at least hear what's going on with your voice, and recommend things based on what I'm hearing.

Good luck with it regardless though! :) If you have someone local, I seriously recommend going and at least getting a consultation.
 
 
WOW! That is incredibly generous. When I try out for American idol in a Teddy Bear suit I'll have to thank you for a little free pub. (haha) I'd love to get your personal feedback and would be super grateful. It'd just be a matter of setting up a time. Obviously I'd cater to your schedule. I'm in L.A. where it is currently 5:13 p.m. Do I remember correctly that you're an Aussie?

Aussie! Aussie! Aussie!  

I've already done my vocal workout for the day (that first video three times through) plus I'll need to make sure I have skype up and running properly but if sometime tomorrow would work for, that'd be great for me. If that doesn't work, just tell me when. Thanks again man! 

User avatar
Julibee
Posts: 291
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Southern California

Post 21 Jan 2015

I finally watched the second video and it annoyed the crap out of me, especially when the guy sang Marley's "Yoy Yoy Yoy" from Buffalo Soldier. I understand what the idea is, but it falls flat. "Try using a 'cryish' tone"? What does that even mean?

Anyway, When that second video refers to abdominal support or pressure... Same as controlling the diaphragm. But the exercises aren't any better than singing along with what you love. Do some scales. Practice some intervals. Sing along with what you love. That's it.

I sing ALL DAY LONG... To the radio, to myself, to the dogs, etc... I even sing, "Suppppers Reaaaaaady" up the stairs at dinner time. Really. It's a lifestyle, man, a Life.Style. LOL
I'm still doing it wrong.
8.1    
Bandcamp | Soundcloud | Twitter | .com

User avatar
JNeffLind
Posts: 977
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: So. Illinois, USA

Post 21 Jan 2015

Thanks Julibee. I listened to your track and you've definitely got some great pipes. Sounds great. If you hadn't married your philosophy professor (I creeped on your soundclick page) I'd be taking a much more flirtatious tone here. That voice is a heart shaker!

Thanks so much for sharing all your knowledge. This is all super helpful. It's nice to get some specific answers to things I was wondering about. I wish I had something up online to share of myself singing but I only have stuff in mp3 from before I damaged my voice. I tried to attach it here but it won't allow me to attach a mp3. I'll see if I can PM it to you though. Thanks again for taking the time!

User avatar
Julibee
Posts: 291
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Southern California

Post 21 Jan 2015

Yeah, I'm just an old married lady with two kids, two dogs and a house in the 'burbs, really. Having said that, feel free to creep around iTunes, Spotify, Bandcamp or Soundcloud. HA HA HA!

That SoundClick stuff, tho... GAH, I should really take it down. Still, it reminds me of how far I've come, and I'm nothing if not sentimental.

Cheers, and let us know how it goes!
I'm still doing it wrong.
8.1    
Bandcamp | Soundcloud | Twitter | .com

User avatar
Sympleman
Posts: 43
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 22 Jan 2015

By far the best thread on this forum!  A perfect example of why this community is so important!

User avatar
liampatrickingram
Posts: 64
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 22 Jan 2015

Julibee wrote:I even sing, "Suppppers Reaaaaaady" up the stairs at dinner time. Really. It's a lifestyle, man, a Life.Style. LOL
I sing Suppers Ready at dinner time too! Peter Gabriel is soooooooo tough to emulate.  :D

 

User avatar
Julibee
Posts: 291
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Southern California

Post 22 Jan 2015

I have n.e.v.e.r. Heard that before! whoa.... Lol
I'm still doing it wrong.
8.1    
Bandcamp | Soundcloud | Twitter | .com

User avatar
zwerggle
Posts: 27
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

Post 22 Jan 2015

Yorick wrote:
zwerggle wrote:I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but the siren things sounds like a terrible idea unless you're properly warmed up. I agree that I would start with easy notes first then move to harder notes after that.
Yorick wrote:
The siren IS a warm up exercise....  

I understand that, it just strikes me as analogous to when a person is working out, and they're told to start with stretches as a "warmup." It's very common, but also makes absolutely no sense. Stretching (especially deep, yoga-style stretching) one's body is something that should be done after one is properly warmed-up. The siren technique just seemed like something akin to the stretching as a warm-up. I'm also a guy without much range, so it's possible that those high notes are just high for me.

Regardless, as I said earlier, I'm not expert, so it's very possible that I have no idea what i'm talking about. I'm totally extrapolating based on my analogy to physical exercise! :)  

z

User avatar
Last Alternative
Posts: 1217
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Location: the lost desert

Post 22 Jan 2015

This guy is excellent.
https://lastalternative.bandcamp.com
:reason: 11+ | iMac (27" Retina 5K, late 2015): OS Big Sur, i7 Skylake @ 4GHz, 1TB SSD, 32 GB RAM, Radeon M395X | lots of nice gear


User avatar
JNeffLind
Posts: 977
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: So. Illinois, USA

Post 22 Jan 2015

Last Alternative wrote:This guy is excellent.
I actually considering including him in the OP. His methods seem pretty unconventional. Have you seen results doing his stuff? I'll try anything. Not afraid of looking silly (and lip trilling and yah yah yahing my way back to a good voice).

User avatar
JNeffLind
Posts: 977
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: So. Illinois, USA

Post 22 Jan 2015

Smedberg wrote:Going a bit OT here but this guy have an incredible vocal range. According to himself?
Mah! Mah! Mah! This man is a master. I will travel to Brazil to train with him. I will also spend some time on my Jiu-Jitsu and maybe even Capoeira (the Dane Cook of martial arts... I kid. It actually makes for an interesting style of footwork if you incorporate other stand-up techniques).

User avatar
Last Alternative
Posts: 1217
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Location: the lost desert

Post 22 Jan 2015

JNeffLind- Yes Eric knows his stuff. I wish I lived in his town to get lessons with him. It's so hard to find a good vocal coach. I used to have a great one ($35/hr). Went to her house once a week for a while, got better and all but it was a long drive and I felt like she tried to teach me to sing like her. Therein lies the problem: most vocal coaches (unknowingly) teach you how they sing, not how to sing in general or focus on fine tuning each student's style. This guy Eric is truly a pro. His tips seems strange but do work; especially for general warm up/vocal strengthening! I can't afford his online classes but I prefer to be in the same room anyway. Need to find a good local teacher again.

tips
----
*Simply make a Reason song with different piano runs to practice to.. it really helps me.
*Practice as much as anything you want to be good at! They say it takes 10,000 hours to master something.
*The most important part of singing is ***breathing***.
*Don't smoke! I quit 2.5 years ago and I feel great! Also drinking doesn't help but... I gotta drink, yo :t0305:
*Exercise & eat right! Focus on breathing as you walk/run. Strengthen your diaphragm.
*And before you warm up/sing, drink warm water, or warm green tea, and a shot of olive oil to lubricate. Drink water as you go to keep your vocal chords/mouth moist.
*Before the water, tea, and olive oil, sip a shot of lemon juice slowly if congested (strips throat of mucus). Remember milk causes mucus = bad for singing!
*Also- drinking while singing live.. cool, in moderation but do not expect to sound great in the vocal booth! You might sound like a legend in your own mind but trust me it'll sound like sh*t on your timeless recording! Trust me- I know from experience ;)
Godspeed.

Oh and it couldn't hurt to see a doctor on account of the MMA blows you've taken to the throat. Don't damage yourself worse man. Get your voicebox checked out.
https://lastalternative.bandcamp.com
:reason: 11+ | iMac (27" Retina 5K, late 2015): OS Big Sur, i7 Skylake @ 4GHz, 1TB SSD, 32 GB RAM, Radeon M395X | lots of nice gear

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot], LmstPv and 1 guest