Fighting with Reason

[Riverman]

No offense meant to the OP, just playing devil's advocate, but haven't we already read a million posts/threads on someone claiming audio sounds different in Reason compared to other DAW, but it has already been demonstrated (ad infinitum) that audio from Reason is exactly the same as it is in other DAW? I mean right down to the audio nulling?

Maybe Selig can chime in on this....

Huhhmm.. I seem to remember selig not even being able to tell the differences between the internal 14:2 mixer null tests??? lol- remember that? surely well forgotton by those who were not able to 'prove' otherwise. blehhzzz . topic died to lack of inputs from those that claimed there were no differences... funny dat eh? no.

Look, I'm not saying your making things up, but Selig has worked in Pro Tools for years (@Selig - correct me if I'm wrong but isn't your line of work literally audio engineering?), and he's been using Pro Tools almost as long as the technology has been in existence. He knows it back and front, through in through, upside down and sideways - trust me - he'd be able to tell if Pro Tools is doing something different compared to Reason..

^hmm? see above-and then below^

There's lot of things Reason needs to get better at, but a dry project bounced down and summed in one sounds the exact same as any other DAW when levels are set the same and there's no inserts or any other effects in the chain. .

Hmm again-you couldn't really be so wrong here-there certainly are differences between audio drivers signal>to>noise ratios I think you will find.?? no?

"I have to say,I think ""your not even showing any testing methodology,or science""...so please present some of your trained findings to end this debate now? no? yes?.."
Sigh.
There will be differences-the 2 programmes do not work identically-therein lay said 'problems',but also,the possible solutions! ! =)

The evidence presented so far has 0 bearing at this point.
2 clones need to be made 1st to compare--- lol, best of luck with that m8's.
Remember-- no 2 apples will ever be the same,unless 99.99999r% cloned.

So you agree that the "tests" that have been conducted by the OP are bunk? Great - good to see we agree! Hmmmm...

When a dude goes to a doctor with a headache, and the doctor asks him when he gets the headache, and he says, well in the shower but not blah blah blah, would the doctor rip into the patient for not conducting tests properly, or would he listen and try and work out what's going on?

[Riverman]

It's in the summing. Different DAWs do it differently.

Where did you hear about this?

A couple of other pros who specialise in using Logic.
Dan Zank http://www.allmusic.com/artist/dan-zank-mn0000564224
and Tim K. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_K
But as said, I jumped off the Logic train. I didn't want to put all my eggs in an Apple-basket.

Thank you but I could not find the source.
Those. by you, this information is not proven?

You won't find the source online, it was in private conversations.

You trust what you are told by other people?

When I trust the people I work with, sure. When what we all do affects each other sure. When we help each other out, sure. Yes I trust those guys, not only are they good guys but they listen without judgement, and make suggestions that have helped them.

[Riverman]

No offense meant to the OP, just playing devil's advocate, but haven't we already read a million posts/threads on someone claiming audio sounds different in Reason compared to other DAW, but it has already been demonstrated (ad infinitum) that audio from Reason is exactly the same as it is in other DAW? I mean right down to the audio nulling?

Maybe Selig can chime in on this...

*EDIT - d'oh!!! We posted at the same time LOL!

It's in the summing. Different DAWs do it differently. If you turn down the tracks in Logic for example, you get closer to the "more space" you can hear in Pro Tools/ Logic famously sounds smaller, and this workaround fixes that - apparently. I never went with the workaround, I just abandoned Logic for other reasons. Pardon the pun.
Ableton has a "sound" as well. I've found Logic and Reason in particular to sound differently from ProTools and Logic.

But that's not really the issue. I wasn't blowing a horn or anything, it's a genuine frustration I find. Vocals in particular just won't sit in the same way in Reason as when I'm mixing in Pro Tools. If there's something I'm doing wrong I would like to fix it, because I do enjoy composing in Reason, and it's a drag to have to bounce out stems to fix a mix that's just not quite sitting.

It's in the summing?!? I don't suppose you have an analog summing box attached to your Pro Tools rig or something else in the chain?

Look, I'm not saying your making things up, but Selig has worked in Pro Tools for years (@Selig - correct me if I'm wrong but isn't your line of work literally audio engineering?), and he's been using Pro Tools almost as long as the technology has been in existence. He knows it back and front, through in through, upside down and sideways - trust me - he'd be able to tell if Pro Tools is doing something different compared to Reason.

There's lot of things Reason needs to get better at, but a dry project bounced down and summed in one sounds the exact same as any other DAW when levels are set the same and there's no inserts or any other effects in the chain.

I have to say, you sort of set the mood for your argument by posting 2 audio files to compare, then choosing MP3 for one format and AIFF for the other. And yes, I realize the PT mix was lossy, but come on man - do you even science??

The Reason mix is as I last heard it, with master bus compression etc..

I think your testing methodology is not only broke, it changes.

What testing methodology? Who said anything about testing? I was giving an example of what I experience to find cause and solution.
Wow man, you really missed the point here didn't you.

[Riverman]

I love creating music in Reason, but man, I always feel like I'm fighting to get a mixdown working. Especially getting vocals to sit in the mix.
I bounce out stems and import them into ProTools and bam. Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

Why don't you upload some examples?

It seems people thought when you said "why don't you upload some examples, that what you really said was "why don't you conduct some objective tests to prove that there's nothing to be done to help you"

Fat lot of good this has been, what a waste of time.
I'm out, adios.

[8cros]

It's in the summing. Different DAWs do it differently.

Where did you hear about this?

A couple of other pros who specialise in using Logic.
Dan Zank http://www.allmusic.com/artist/dan-zank-mn0000564224
and Tim K. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_K
But as said, I jumped off the Logic train. I didn't want to put all my eggs in an Apple-basket.

Thank you but I could not find the source.
Those. by you, this information is not proven?

You won't find the source online, it was in private conversations.

You trust what you are told by other people?

When I trust the people I work with, sure. When what we all do affects each other sure. When we help each other out, sure. Yes I trust those guys, not only are they good guys but they listen without judgement, and make suggestions that have helped them.

It is of course your own business, but do you properly convey the meaning of what was said by these people?
You play the role of the "broken phone".

[EnochLight]

When a dude goes to a doctor with a headache, and the doctor asks him when he gets the headache, and he says, well in the shower but not blah blah blah, would the doctor rip into the patient for not conducting tests properly, or would he listen and try and work out what's going on?

What testing methodology? Who said anything about testing? I was giving an example of what I experience to find cause and solution.
Wow man, you really missed the point here didn't you.

It's already been pointed out that what you're describing needs more information to troubleshoot. You attempted to provide more information, and it was pointed out that what you provided was flawed (your examples, your testing methodology).. Hence, my question: do you even science? If you want to get to the bottom of this, please cooperate. Otherwise...

Fat lot of good this has been, what a waste of time.
I'm out, adios.

Exactly.

Simply put: we've been down this road before a dozen times over.

[SA Studio]

Did someone do a comparison test with one version a Mp3, one an AIFF, one with bus comp/no limiter, and the other version with a +6db Lmiter on it?

Did I see that right via skimming?

Es no bueno.

[unisyn]

Well when the uploaded examples were AIFF vs MP3...
that's telling ya something

[Noplan]

I can't get this picture out of my head.

dawfighter.jpg (962.43 KiB) Viewed 1833 times

[Electric-Metal]

Damn, where's that like button when you Need it.

[WongoTheSane]

FATALITY!

(got my beat'em up mixed I think)

[Gorgon]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadouken!! (but does it sound different in Protools?)

[EnochLight]

I can't get this picture out of my head.

dawfighter.jpg

A thousand likes upon you, good sir!

[Noplan]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadouken!! (but does it sound different in Protools?)

Nope. everything in that game sound reasonish until you have killed the boss CEO Ernst Nathorst-Böös. After you have played trhough all sounds become pro and clear.

[Electric-Metal]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadouken!! (but does it sound different in Protools?)

Nope. everything in that game sound reasonish until you have killed the boss CEO Ernst Nathorst-Böös. After you have played trhough all sounds become pro and clear.

Epic

[selig]

I love creating music in Reason, but man, I always feel like I'm fighting to get a mixdown working. Especially getting vocals to sit in the mix.
I bounce out stems and import them into ProTools and bam. Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

Why don't you upload some examples?

It seems people thought when you said "why don't you upload some examples, that what you really said was "why don't you conduct some objective tests to prove that there's nothing to be done to help you"

Fat lot of good this has been, what a waste of time.
I'm out, adios.

IMO…What was really said was "something doesn't sound right, upload some examples and we will take time away from our daily schedule to try to find the problem for you". Which we did for the most part, and which you don't seem to want to hear. Is so then yes, best to move along I think.

For the record (and for the next person bringing up this subject…):
We're all sorry you're having problems and yet many of us probably feel WE have wasted our free time trying to sort things out in a scientific way (as much as is possible) for you. I'm beginning to feel the subject should simply be avoided in the future here since it always seems to end with bad feelings on both sides.

And on top of all of that, it has never yet been proven there is a quality/sonic difference between DAWs, or which of all DAWs is the "best" (most accurate) in this sense.

What HAS been proven (maybe not to everyone's satisfaction?) is that there is no sonic difference between the basic audio path in all current DAWs as of 2016.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[artotaku]

I love creating music in Reason, but man, I always feel like I'm fighting to get a mixdown working. Especially getting vocals to sit in the mix.
I bounce out stems and import them into ProTools and bam. Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

Why don't you upload some examples?

It seems people thought when you said "why don't you upload some examples, that what you really said was "why don't you conduct some objective tests to prove that there's nothing to be done to help you"

Fat lot of good this has been, what a waste of time.
I'm out, adios.

IMO…What was really said was "something doesn't sound right, upload some examples and we will take time away from our daily schedule to try to find the problem for you". Which we did for the most part, and which you don't seem to want to hear. Is so then yes, best to move along I think.

For the record (and for the next person bringing up this subject…):
We're all sorry you're having problems and yet many of us probably feel WE have wasted our free time trying to sort things out in a scientific way (as much as is possible) for you. I'm beginning to feel the subject should simply be avoided in the future here since it always seems to end with bad feelings on both sides.

And on top of all of that, it has never yet been proven there is a quality/sonic difference between DAWs, or which of all DAWs is the "best" (most accurate) in this sense.

What HAS been proven (maybe not to everyone's satisfaction?) is that there is no sonic difference between the basic audio path in all current DAWs as of 2016.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That is an important point and has to be said once upon a time. People care to help here, do it mostly in their free time, don´t charge any money for it and don´t have any support contract with Propellerhead. So I wonder sometimes what people´s expectations are...

[EnochLight]

There should be a locked sticky on this very subject, IMHO.

[Logismos]

What HAS been proven (maybe not to everyone's satisfaction?) is that there is no sonic difference between the basic audio path in all current DAWs as of 2016.

Sorry to quote,but I feel there is a big difference of opinions as nothing has been 'proven' -at all = this is why these topics keep re-appearing.
I think it's a debatable topic because of the wide choice of algorithms used,and how each user system,operating platform,interfaces and internal daw engines actually process information.
Users must be aware that each time a recording is made,or,a file is opened or interacted with in any way-a change occurs.
Until the day everybody works on the same 'page'-there will always be differences.
Please,continue.
Show some data,because computers work with data-- whereas audio does not need to be digitatized.

[submonsterz]

Maybe leave it on most of reason stock is not as good in how it processes or end result as the competition pluggs else where same as the instruments in general .
I think once you add in anything from a straight audio path in reason is where it begins to show its weaknesses that people say they find ill go with that .
Reason has many flaws and abnomillies that add up after the initial vanilla path.
As said before go test things ya self and look per sample level at the wav forms etc youll see the differences so easily for yourself you dont need selig or any one else to look its easily seen by yourself and can be safe in knowing what the issues are and not keep getting swung back to the same old shite thats presented time after time on no difference in audio path . Its when you add to that path in reason it becomes apparent.

[Djstarski]

The problem your having is in the title of this post . Fighting with Reason . You should not be fighting with Reason . You should be working with Reason . Just imaging having a 4 track recorder , one mic , drum machine and maybe one keyboard synth . Now look at Reason again or any other DAW we have available today . Yes the DAW`s we have today does not all come with top end instruments built in , but with a bit of imagination and work with what you have , i`m sure we can put some good music together . Lets not forget knowing how to work your equipment and having the love for music in you .

just my input

[Gorgon]

Sorry to quote,but I feel there is a big difference of opinions as nothing has been 'proven' -at all = this is why these topics keep re-appearing.
I think it's a debatable topic because of the wide choice of algorithms used,and how each user system,operating platform,interfaces and internal daw engines actually process information.
Users must be aware that each time a recording is made,or,a file is opened or interacted with in any way-a change occurs.
Until the day everybody works on the same 'page'-there will always be differences.
Please,continue.
Show some data,because computers work with data-- whereas audio does not need to be digitatized.

These topics keep reappearing because people are stubborn and they let their mind trick them into hearing things that aren't there.

A song made in Reason sounds exactly the same on computer A as on computer B if it uses the same sample rate. Doesn't matter if it's Windows Vista, or 10, or MAC OS, or whatever. All that vague OS "logic" doesn't affect the audio in any way. In the end it's just the playing of a sample (in case of audio). The only thing that makes a difference in the actual sound might be an interface, but since the DAW engine precedes the interface, we can eliminate that from the equation, because it's not about that, it's about the internal DAW "engine".

[submonsterz]

Sorry to quote,but I feel there is a big difference of opinions as nothing has been 'proven' -at all = this is why these topics keep re-appearing.
I think it's a debatable topic because of the wide choice of algorithms used,and how each user system,operating platform,interfaces and internal daw engines actually process information.
Users must be aware that each time a recording is made,or,a file is opened or interacted with in any way-a change occurs.
Until the day everybody works on the same 'page'-there will always be differences.
Please,continue.
Show some data,because computers work with data-- whereas audio does not need to be digitatized.

These topics keep reappearing because people are stubborn and they let their mind trick them into hearing things that aren't there.

A song made in Reason sounds exactly the same on computer A as on computer B if it uses the same sample rate. Doesn't matter if it's Windows Vista, or 10, or MAC OS, or whatever. All that vague OS "logic" doesn't affect the audio in any way. In the end it's just the playing of a sample (in case of audio). The only thing that makes a difference in the actual sound might be an interface, but since the DAW engine precedes the interface, we can eliminate that from the equation, because it's not about that, it's about the internal DAW "engine".

Errm no computer a and b might have totally different sound via interface and dacs used etc its all the conversions and how well.it does them and os also do to some extent also can differ in how it deals with audio to .
Im sorry i totally dissagree on your figuring on your response to logismos post.there are just way to many variables to count out differences there im afraid.
Just to add it matters not if the daw engine is the same as no daw stops at the engine it then goes to the mixers and errm if all mixers worked and dounded the same between daws there wouldbt be need for different mixers at all as they all add something different which goes to proove my point i made from signal path of daw engine to anything beyond will give differenf results .

[selig]

What HAS been proven (maybe not to everyone's satisfaction?) is that there is no sonic difference between the basic audio path in all current DAWs as of 2016.

Sorry to quote,but I feel there is a big difference of opinions as nothing has been 'proven' -at all = this is why these topics keep re-appearing.
I think it's a debatable topic because of the wide choice of algorithms used,and how each user system,operating platform,interfaces and internal daw engines actually process information.
Users must be aware that each time a recording is made,or,a file is opened or interacted with in any way-a change occurs.
Until the day everybody works on the same 'page'-there will always be differences.
Please,continue.
Show some data,because computers work with data-- whereas audio does not need to be digitatized.

All that interests me is whether anyone can consistently tell the difference in a proper listening test. I'm still not 100% certain there are absolutely NO measurable differences between different DAWs, but the question of whether or not the "golden ears" can hear the difference has been answered to my satisfaction many times now.

To the best of my knowledge, Lynn Fuston from 3d Audio has done probably the most exhaustive test out there, where something like 99.9% of the people could not tell any difference between all of the different samples. Not sure what the 0.1% claimed to hear, it's been a while since the original test was run. Read all about it here:
http://www.3daudioinc.com/3db/showthrea ... DAW-Mixers

For me, I've done so many different tests over the many years I've been involved in the audio world, and had the same results each time, that I decided long ago to spend my time instead in improving my music making skills instead of testing and re-testing my DAW's audio path.

That being said, and knowing we ALL can be fooled, I believe it's every serious engineer's "duty" to learn how to compare gear fairly themselves so that you can make better informed choices and don't have to rely on other folk's testing. If you're fooling yourself with your decisions, the only person who will "suffer" the consequences is you. I'm talking mostly listening tests here, but measurements can be handy to confirm and quantify what you hear or to point out when you HAVE been fooled (happens to everyone). Taking this thread as an example, there are some mis-informed conclusions being made by assuming the comparison was accurate and fair - once again, the adage "garbage in/garbage out" applies IMO.

My bottom line:
Take your comparison process lightly at your own peril…

[8cros]

I'm a long time user of UAD plugs and I'm using them almost exclusively in my day job. And I said it like 10 times here already...so sorry about that. Like I said, mclass distorts in such an unpleasant way that I avoid it at all cost. 1176 for example does someting completely different and desirable.
I agree that cpu hit does not mean sound quality, but I can't escape the thought that maybe reason devices are to blame. I mean I did projects with so many eq's and compressors and synths with a lame dual core, that other daw's couldn't even imagine...so at one point I asked my self, could it be I'm loosing something in sound quality, while getting so many devices, or is it that reason is just so damn efficient? Since racks are available in reason, I'm even more convinced, since I can definitely hear something I never could before, in Reason.
I also agree it's a love or hate in most cases. But for example UAD has a few versions of la2a and depending on the sound you're going after you'll decide which one you'll use. Deciding if you're going to use one amazing sounding la2a or the other is not the same as deciding between mclass that will screw your sound or a stereo imager that will dissolve your hi end. I just think some devices are terrible in terms of "i don't know what's up" and that always gets me in trouble with reason.
I'm also sorry if I sound like I'm just trashing reason, but this is not my intetion at all...I even released an album made in reason and it's available commercially. Reason is so damn cool. Just thinking maybe an update in quality of the devices would make it sound nicer...if that's the case, since I heard it like a million times before.
Or extensions are actually just that...and I'm fine with that solution for now.
So, no more words from me.
tx
M

You say MClass terrible - it's slander.

Reason The main problems - minor bugs. For example, in the Thor, MClass equalizer...

*You just need to simple routing filters in the Thor? This is not, there is a bug.
*We need an exact curve shelves MClass equalizer? This is not, there is bug.
Etc.

The second problem is aliasing:
We need to work in sample rate 88200? But how?

It's all very well heard.
You can avoid all these problems, but few know about it or know how to get around, so beginners overlook the serious obstacles.
Stereo Imager and the compressor - a very good tool. I use them for a long time, do patches, and also have compressors for comparison.