Fighting with Reason

[Riverman]

The ProTools and Reason files null completely for me but the Ableton does not.

Hmmm...

[Riverman]

Oh is that it? Really? Well, the only freaking thing you have to do is import THE SAME FREAKING SAMPLE into both Pro Tools and Reason WITHOUT ANY VST'S OR EFFECTS OR COMPRESSORS OR WHATEVER, export both those AT THE SAME FREAKING BITRATE and you would have exactly the same snare.

I explained that's an unworkably tedious way of working that adds time and size to the project due to the necessity of making numerous revisions.

There's clearly been something done with the Logic bounce, either deliberately or because of ill-flavoured settings in Logic's rendering for this experiment. Looks like a Normalize.

Other than that, when testing this in Reason just by using the SSL channel Phase inverter, DawTest-ProTools and DawTest-ReasonImportedStems null out completely.

In addition to the Logic session being in 44.1 there's also a default pan law "-3 (compensated)" that they put on it.

[Kenni]

Oh is that it? Really? Well, the only freaking thing you have to do is import THE SAME FREAKING SAMPLE into both Pro Tools and Reason WITHOUT ANY VST'S OR EFFECTS OR COMPRESSORS OR WHATEVER, export both those AT THE SAME FREAKING BITRATE and you would have exactly the same snare.

I explained that's an unworkably tedious way of working that adds time and size to the project due to the necessity of making numerous revisions.

There's clearly been something done with the Logic bounce, either deliberately or because of ill-flavoured settings in Logic's rendering for this experiment. Looks like a Normalize.

Other than that, when testing this in Reason just by using the SSL channel Phase inverter, DawTest-ProTools and DawTest-ReasonImportedStems null out completely.

In addition to the Logic session being in 44.1 there's also a default pan law "-3 (compensated)" that they put on it.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Null testing with mono files is simple. It will never fail, unless we're talking about a sound with random effects like an async LFO/Phaser/Chorus and multiple bounces.

Default rules compensating for the Pan Law is a different story - And something that should be applied explicitly. Alas, default values shouldn't exist, unless you want to define "Neutral" as default.

[8cros]

Oh is that it? Really? Well, the only freaking thing you have to do is import THE SAME FREAKING SAMPLE into both Pro Tools and Reason WITHOUT ANY VST'S OR EFFECTS OR COMPRESSORS OR WHATEVER, export both those AT THE SAME FREAKING BITRATE and you would have exactly the same snare.

I explained that's an unworkably tedious way of working that adds time and size to the project due to the necessity of making numerous revisions.

There's clearly been something done with the Logic bounce, either deliberately or because of ill-flavoured settings in Logic's rendering for this experiment. Looks like a Normalize.

Other than that, when testing this in Reason just by using the SSL channel Phase inverter, DawTest-ProTools and DawTest-ReasonImportedStems null out completely.

In addition to the Logic session being in 44.1 there's also a default pan law "-3 (compensated)" that they put on it.

Do not forget that you are not the first who do the test.

http://src.infinitewave.ca/
Yes, I should not say this. But still. Oh wait ... you do have not done anything.

[Ottostrom]

Do not forget that you are not the first who do the test.

http://src.infinitewave.ca/
Yes, I should not say this. But still. Oh wait ... you do have not done anything.

As Selig pointed out earlier, what they are comparing on that site is not the same thing as what we are trying to do now.
But you are correct in that this has been done before by others.

[selig]

I should note that the residual audio on the latest test files from Riverman sounds a lot like dither - pretty much noise. Meaning, dither was not disabled on one (or both) of the files.

[Logismos]

I wanted to either understand your unique view (or expose it as fiction), or eat crow when you schooled me (wouldn't be the first time for me, it's how I learn and grow!) - your choice.
And hey, if you're not here to share your knowledge and experience like the rest of us (and you're not here to learn) then why exactly ARE you here?

All I can type at this point is wow-just wow
All aside from 1= fail.
How much are you guys prepared to pay for this information?? am I supposed to keep giving away for free -forever???
Some serious derpin going on here> sleep on it guys n gals,all will be revealed soon.

If you know something I don't, I kind of need to know because if that's the case, I seriously need to reconsider my line of work. And I'll say that without implying financial superiority.

Get considering m8.

[Kenni]

If you know something I don't, I kind of need to know because if that's the case, I seriously need to reconsider my line of work. And I'll say that without implying financial superiority.

Get considering m8.

Sarcasm aside, there's a slight chance that you're way in over your head.

[selig]

I wanted to either understand your unique view (or expose it as fiction), or eat crow when you schooled me (wouldn't be the first time for me, it's how I learn and grow!) - your choice.
And hey, if you're not here to share your knowledge and experience like the rest of us (and you're not here to learn) then why exactly ARE you here?

All I can type at this point is wow-just wow
All aside from 1= fail.
How much are you guys prepared to pay for this information?? am I supposed to keep giving away for free -forever???
Some serious derpin going on here> sleep on it guys n gals,all will be revealed soon.

If you know something I don't, I kind of need to know because if that's the case, I seriously need to reconsider my line of work. And I'll say that without implying financial superiority.

Get considering m8.

WOW, indeed!

Charging for your knowledge is not something I can support here. Start your own site if that's your game.

I'm not getting the sense you feel at home here - maybe you're not a good fit for the community we're trying to build?

[8cros]

Riverman, I worked with your files, but you have not explained to us why you have changed one of them?
All your differences on the screen.

I wasn't making it up, I spot differences.

(Edited by Kenni, don't get mad at google translate)

[Riverman]

Riverman, I worked with your files, but you have not explained to us why you have changed one of them?
All your differences on the screen.

I wasn't making it up, I spot differences.

(Edited by Kenni, don't get mad at google translate)

I didn't change one of them. They're all clean 44.1/16 aif bounces without masterbus processing as I said.

#1 Is bounced out of Reason, 44.1/24 stems were then bounced out from that session.
#2 stems were imported into a 48/24 ProTools then bounced out
#3 stems were imported into a 48/24 Reason then bounced out.

2 and 3 should null. 1 is different, as it's not from a session of the same stems, it's from the original session.

#4 stems were imported into 44.1/24 Logic session and bounced out.
This is different because of the sample rate and pan law compensation.
#5 stems were imported into 48/24 Ableton session and bounced out.
Don't know why this is different. Time stretch issue or something? I will check the session again.

[Riverman]

It is obvious to me that the process of bouncing out the stems and then reimporting is effecting the resultant mix.
That seems to be proven in the null test not working.
That's the difference I'm hearing when the stems are playing in ProTools. As evidenced by the null test not being null.

Selig great idea about trying rewire and seeing what that does.
I did set up a mammoth session once, tried to bypass the SSL... it was pretty convoluted... ended up just going for stem bounces in the end... but I'll give it another go.

[8cros]

1. It took me add two subgroups, and 14 copies of your two tracks.

You see?

2. I got a silence, but I had to go all your way. Which you deny.

But if you have done all that being said, it would be only 2 tracks for complete silence.

[8cros]

Further. It is in favor of the PT.
Fatty. That there was a lot fatter.

[Riverman]

1. It took me add two subgroups, and 14 copies of your two tracks.

You see?

2. I got a silence, but I had to go all your way. Which you deny.

But if you have done all that being said, it would be only 2 tracks for complete silence.

.... Wow man, you're something else. Accusing me of some weird duplicitousness (for what reason?) without any evidence other than the files aren't nulling is preposterous. I've explained again and again my process.
Are you honestly using Google translate to have this conversation? You are being very insulting. Does that translate?

I'm putting you on ignore.

[Riverman]

Further. It is in favor of the PT.
Fatty. That there was a lot fatter.

Yes that was my point in the OP...

[8cros]

1. It took me add two subgroups, and 14 copies of your two tracks.

You see?

2. I got a silence, but I had to go all your way. Which you deny.

But if you have done all that being said, it would be only 2 tracks for complete silence.

.... Wow man, you're something else. Accusing me of some weird duplicitousness (for what reason?) without any evidence other than the files aren't nulling is preposterous. I've explained again and again my process.
Are you honestly using Google translate to have this conversation? You are being very insulting. Does that translate?

I'm putting you on ignore.

Is this your gratitude for my patience and time?
Thank you!

[selig]

It is obvious to me that the process of bouncing out the stems and then reimporting is effecting the resultant mix.
That seems to be proven in the null test not working.
That's the difference I'm hearing when the stems are playing in ProTools. As evidenced by the null test not being null.

Selig great idea about trying rewire and seeing what that does.
I did set up a mammoth session once, tried to bypass the SSL... it was pretty convoluted... ended up just going for stem bounces in the end... but I'll give it another go.

hang on a second -
These two null:
DAWTest-Reason-importedstems
DAWTest-ProTools

But THESE two have the odd "mid-cancel" effect, where the guitar and bass go away but the other tracks stick around:
DAWTest-Reason
DAWTest-ProTools

Is that correct?

Cause if the Reason and Pro Tools files null, then your theory above is flawed, right? In other words, since they null, you can't be hearing a difference!

Also, remember what I've repeated ad nauseam - a failed null does NOT imply any specific quality of the two files. You're assuming that if the null fails then the MIX is different. Maybe yes, maybe no. FAR more likely the null fails because of a timing or level difference because these two files sound pretty much the same to my ears.

Now they do not null PERFECTLY, but if you normalize resultant file all you hear is noise, which is dither (because you didn't disable dither on one or both exports). IF there was a mix difference, we would hear some instruments louder than others, e.g. a different mix - try it if you like, change a few levels and do the export again and null - you'll hear the instruments who's levels you changed and nothing else.

All to say - the ONLY difference between the two files is dither, and even that won't account for what you're hearing because even if you export the exact same audio twice with dither, you'll get the same results as I'm hearing here.

So based on the files you recently posted, I'm content to say "case closed", there is no difference and you have just proved it. To me, at least. You are certainly free to believe the mixes are different!

There are still going to be workflow differences and plugin differences, but when you say you import the stems into PT and hear a different mix, well we just proved they are the same. Don't know where to go from here, except to wish you luck and move on!

[selig]

1. It took me add two subgroups, and 14 copies of your two tracks.

You see?

2. I got a silence, but I had to go all your way. Which you deny.

But if you have done all that being said, it would be only 2 tracks for complete silence.

.... Wow man, you're something else. Accusing me of some weird duplicitousness (for what reason?) without any evidence other than the files aren't nulling is preposterous. I've explained again and again my process.
Are you honestly using Google translate to have this conversation? You are being very insulting. Does that translate?

I'm putting you on ignore.

Is this your gratitude for my patience and time?
Thank you!

No 8cros, I'd say it's simply the response of someone who's tired of being called a liar - I'd do the same if you said those things to me. Maybe time to look into different translation software?

[8cros]

1. It took me add two subgroups, and 14 copies of your two tracks.

You see?

2. I got a silence, but I had to go all your way. Which you deny.

But if you have done all that being said, it would be only 2 tracks for complete silence.

.... Wow man, you're something else. Accusing me of some weird duplicitousness (for what reason?) without any evidence other than the files aren't nulling is preposterous. I've explained again and again my process.
Are you honestly using Google translate to have this conversation? You are being very insulting. Does that translate?

I'm putting you on ignore.

Is this your gratitude for my patience and time?
Thank you!

No 8cros, I'd say it's simply the response of someone who's tired of being called a liar - I'd do the same if you said those things to me. Maybe time to look into different translation software?

I really do not hold evil.
And I said, all the results are received. Without emotions and unnecessary words.

They were manipulated with a view to highlight the snare drum and a few other sounds in the mix of the PT.
I have a project file to confirm my words.

I am very sorry that the Riverman ignores me.
This difficulty can be translated.

[8cros]

I know you are waiting for my poorly translated from Polish apologies.

But I'm just a fool, because I could not finish peacefully in the working process.
I'm a fool. Yes.
My apologies empty action.

[Logismos]

I'm not getting the sense you feel at home here - maybe you're not a good fit for the community we're trying to build?

Lolz-Ok.Fees are a joke- I wouldn't charge a grain of sand for any info I could help to provide,but,while we are on that subject,then why do you charge for your rack extensions?? I mean-is that not just "knowledge shared" or something else to you? (bit off topic) I guess a long wait for that answer?? (did you write the code for them btw?) anyways.
I'm not sure what type of community <we're?> trying to build here either--seems a bit biased and well controlled to me--borderline censorship of informations perhaps..hm. not sure if I want to 'fit that' really.Will wait n see how things progress.

I'm a fool. Yes.

No.i feel not-you have a heart and brain that is used.ty.
All is to be revealed.Latch mode for now.

[selig]

I'm not getting the sense you feel at home here - maybe you're not a good fit for the community we're trying to build?

Lolz-Ok.Fees are a joke- I wouldn't charge a grain of sand for any info I could help to provide,but,while we are on that subject,then why do you charge for your rack extensions?? I mean-is that not just "knowledge shared" or something else to you? (bit off topic) I guess a long wait for that answer?? (did you write the code for them btw?) anyways.
I'm not sure what type of community <we're?> trying to build here either--seems a bit biased and well controlled to me--borderline censorship of informations perhaps..hm. not sure if I want to 'fit that' really.Will wait n see how things progress.

I'm a fool. Yes.

No.i feel not-you have a heart and brain that is used.ty.
All is to be revealed.Latch mode for now.

Ha! If you really feel THIS forum is biased, well controlled, or censored (examples?) then you really are in the wrong place! On second thought I actually take "well controlled" as a compliment, considering how out of control the old PUF was, and that didn't end well IIRC.

And I'm glad to see you changing your tone on charging, seems we may have more in common than expected?

As to your other "questions"…I'll gladly answer in PM (check your inbox), or in another thread if you want a public response. I wrote it out here, but I've already derailed the thread by responding to your comments about the forum. If you'd like to talk further about the forum, start a thread in the Kitchen - we really do listen!


As for this thread, let's get back on topic so others can find something useful here!

[WongoTheSane]

turnaround.png (243.22 KiB) Viewed 1566 times

[Riverman]

It is obvious to me that the process of bouncing out the stems and then reimporting is effecting the resultant mix.
That seems to be proven in the null test not working.
That's the difference I'm hearing when the stems are playing in ProTools. As evidenced by the null test not being null.

Selig great idea about trying rewire and seeing what that does.
I did set up a mammoth session once, tried to bypass the SSL... it was pretty convoluted... ended up just going for stem bounces in the end... but I'll give it another go.

hang on a second -
These two null:
DAWTest-Reason-importedstems
DAWTest-ProTools

But THESE two have the odd "mid-cancel" effect, where the guitar and bass go away but the other tracks stick around:
DAWTest-Reason
DAWTest-ProTools

Is that correct?

Yeah I had the same result.
DAWTest-Reason-importedstems
DAWTest-ProTools
are both sessions made up solely of the stems.

DAWTest-Reason has the original files. Guitar, bass, kick all go, but snare, synths etc stick around.

Cause if the Reason and Pro Tools files null, then your theory above is flawed, right? In other words, since they null, you can't be hearing a difference!

Also, remember what I've repeated ad nauseam - a failed null does NOT imply any specific quality of the two files. You're assuming that if the null fails then the MIX is different. Maybe yes, maybe no. FAR more likely the null fails because of a timing or level difference because these two files sound pretty much the same to my ears.

Now they do not null PERFECTLY, but if you normalize resultant file all you hear is noise, which is dither (because you didn't disable dither on one or both exports). IF there was a mix difference, we would hear some instruments louder than others, e.g. a different mix - try it if you like, change a few levels and do the export again and null - you'll hear the instruments who's levels you changed and nothing else.

All to say - the ONLY difference between the two files is dither, and even that won't account for what you're hearing because even if you export the exact same audio twice with dither, you'll get the same results as I'm hearing here.

So based on the files you recently posted, I'm content to say "case closed", there is no difference and you have just proved it. To me, at least. You are certainly free to believe the mixes are different!

There are still going to be workflow differences and plugin differences, but when you say you import the stems into PT and hear a different mix, well we just proved they are the same. Don't know where to go from here, except to wish you luck and move on!

Pretty sure I didn't dither the bounces. And I didn't touch the faders on the import sessions, nor on the original after exporting the stems.
What are you hearing is dither mix? Between the two stems bounces, or between the original bounce and the protools bounce?