Respect for Help Asked for & Offered

[DougalDarkly]

edit: to delete post

[reddust]

I don't know exactly what this. thread is all about to be honest, but I think it's normal for people to not always answer on forums, not even when other people where kindly, offered help and took a lot of time and effort to elaborate an answer.

I've seen even worse things, like somebody asking for help, some other people writing long informative answers and the thread opener answering with things like "Ok, someone else has more to say?" not even saying thanks or what other people already wrote and even sounding like all that information was useless, even when it might have not been the case, but with answers like that I almost prefer no answer at all.

But at the end a forum is a public place so it's better to be open and expect people not to always act like we expect them to do. Sometimes no answer doesn't mean anything, you never know what happened to the person who won't answer or why he/she doesn't answer and cannot expect them to act like you'd like to. For some people it is easier not to answer than to say 'no', for some others the conversation might have worked better in a different thread or forum and they forgot to answer here because as most of us they already have enough to do and end up forgetting open conversations, and some people might just not be very skillful with social conventions or very self centered and think everyone can read their minds and there is no need for any further communication as soon as they have come to a conclusion...

I don't know, I kind of understand that not getting an answer to a help offering might be sometimes frustrating but it's a possibility and not really worth wasting much time on it. At least that's how I see it, of course you are also free to use your time for stuff like this, but I don't think that's going to change how people interact, not even here in RT

[Benedict]

Of course, I see that sort of post Mr Dust as being rather dismissive of everything said here (and you are not the only one as I already addressed in my last post). If you were intending to be so dismissive would it not have been better not to say anything at all? I see Mr Darkly second-guessed his post (or the Mods did for him) and I am guessing maybe I should thank him for that.

Surely the fact you took the time to write what you did - nice to get that time I guess but not so much in how it seems intended - that way says that you deliberately wanted me to feel bad. Much as the girl who simply doesn't show up for a date she agreed to is actually trying to hurt that boy. A TXT would be better but she chooses the mean option instead. Such a choice says something about her. As do people who choose not to acknowledge the very help they asked for or otherwise dismiss what someone is saying. Perhaps the thing here is to ask how you feel now that you are on the receiving end? If that is less than cucumber then perhaps you get my point perfectly.

Yes, simply moving on from ignorant people is good advice, thanks. But is allowing and therefore encouraging that sort of ignorance a great thing? Would you raise your daughter to be the sort of person who stood-up someone who went out of their way to ask them on a date so they are left sitting there feeling cheated, like a fool?

This thread is simply about suggesting that we can do better. Therefore probably we should lest we miss out on the opportunities that we miss by not being more communicative.

[DougalDarkly]

Deleted

[MrFigg]

I see Mr Darkly second-guessed his post (or the Mods did for him) and I am guessing maybe I should thank him for that.

Yeah, that was me - I sort of ran out of words TBH, so here are some of yours - see if they help at all?

I get you want to hear what you want to hear but that is going to be your undoing as without doing something different you will never be able to do something different, let alone something amazing.

If I thought you were not worth anything, I would have said nothing. That I gave my time, attention, and advice meant that clearly I thought that you could step up and become something. Ignoring that was not kind to either of us.

Yep Dougal. Well said.

[reddust]

This thread is simply about suggesting that we can do better. Therefore probably we should lest we miss out on the opportunities that we miss by not being more communicative.

What we can do better is quite subjective, everyone tends to think their own way to do things is the right and better one

[MrFigg]

Got to comment. Benedict...both Reddust and DougalDarkly’s posts were friendly and just offering other ways to look at the situation. You focused instead on DougalDarkly calling you “dude” which in my opinion he didn’t use in either a derogatory or demeaning way. You responded to RedDust telling him that he was being dismissive. Additionally you have tried to dictate to other posters what we should or shouldn’t be discussing in this thread. You’ve also repeated your first comment in every reply you’ve posted here albeit in other words.

In case anybody missed it I’m assuming that this is the thread which triggered this whole thing.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7515569

I agree with what you say Benedict about being respectful to others and have championed that cause myself both in earlier threads and also in real life. In this situation however you are saying that “we” should be better when in fact you appear just to have been riled up by one guy who didn’t acknowledge a reply you wrote.
Again, people on this forum for the most are respectful and helpful. If you’re annoyed at one person for not answering you then maybe it’d be more constructive to take it with that person instead of declaring that “we All should be better”. Do you think that may be an idea?

[bxbrkrz]

This thread is fun. Please admin, don't move it to the gloomy kitchen, next to that evil AMD fanboy.

[kitekrazy]

Got to comment. Benedict...both Reddust and DougalDarkly’s posts were friendly and just offering other ways to look at the situation. You focused instead on DougalDarkly calling you “dude” which in my opinion he didn’t use in either a derogatory or demeaning way. You responded to RedDust telling him that he was being dismissive. Additionally you have tried to dictate to other posters what we should or shouldn’t be discussing in this thread. You’ve also repeated your first comment in every reply you’ve posted here albeit in other words.

In case anybody missed it I’m assuming that this is the thread which triggered this whole thing.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7515569

I agree with what you say Benedict about being respectful to others and have championed that cause myself both in earlier threads and also in real life. In this situation however you are saying that “we” should be better when in fact you appear just to have been riled up by one guy who didn’t acknowledge a reply you wrote.
Again, people on this forum for the most are respectful and helpful. If you’re annoyed at one person for not answering you then maybe it’d be more constructive to take it with that person instead of declaring that “we All should be better”. Do you think that may be an idea?

"Clearly the long post that I spent a lot of time making was not valued". I didn't see it but most people blow off a lengthy post.

The worst comments on any form is when someone asks a ? and someone says goggle it. Maybe it was google that brought them to a site. The worst forums ever are Steam Community.

[EnochLight]

The worst forums ever are Steam Community.

The mpc-forums are a close second.

[EdGrip]

"He is in the music business, he is calling you DUDE!" - CAKE, Comfort Eagle

[aeox]

Not completely sure what this is all about but I get the gist. I personally wouldn't even attempt to give feedback on a track where they do not specifically ask for it. If requested, depending on the expertise of the artist, (for me) it's important to set boundaries if I'm giving feedback.

Perhaps you could share all the positives of the track in the thread. Then private message the artist and ask them if they want serious critique, get into the nuances.

With that said, there is always a difference between written word and verbal/visual conversation. It's sometimes incredibily hard to get a sense of someones mood or demeanor through text, especially since most of us aren't story telling

If you truly do see potential and want to help an artist bring their idea into frutition, maybe a voice recording(call?) or quick video directly to the arist would be a nice touch. Maybe too much?

[guitfnky]

I’ve said something before about how it’s not a great look to offer opinions or suggestions where none are asked for. I don’t know whether that was the case here, since the original response was edited, but my perspective is, if someone is asking for feedback on a mix, the feedback should mostly be limited to the mix—if they ask for feedback on the progression or music generally, you should mostly stick to that, and avoid talking about mixing or more technical aspects. if they ask for general feedback, anything’s game.

I get that sometimes people just want to help, and share their knowledge, but you run the risk of coming across as condescending if you’re throwing your two cents in on subjects that the requester isn’t asking opinions on.

of course, when I say “you”, here, I mean in the general sense—not directed at anyone in particular.

[brand]

Back to Benedict's original post, I like this topic. My two cents: Overall, I've had a good experience in this forum. I'm the type who, when I find I have a question, I try to read the manual, search for an answer, etc., before just asking in the forum. I just want to try to figure it out myself. But I have asked, and I'm always thankful for any answer I get because, well, folks aren't getting paid to answer questions around here. No one knows everything. It should be a collegial thing. Forums can be nasty, let's face it. Social media has a lot of problems, I think. So far, when some forum I've used moves itself to Facebook, I'm done. I won't follow. Most likely some of the advantages of social media are also its weaknesses. Like its anonymity; "now you see me now you don't" aspect. A forum like this should be about fun, learning, and sharing ideas. To me that's the mark of professionalism. And largely, it is that here, I've found. If that sounds corny, so be it. Also, things written in forums, (or even in email) can easily be mis-interpreted. So I try to re-read before I post.

[Benedict]

"Clearly the long post that I spent a lot of time making was not valued". I didn't see it but most people blow off a lengthy post.

Yes true. But what do we miss when we take the attitude that "oh, that's too much effort, I won't do it" but still expect a great outcome?

My point through a lot of this is that this is what happens so much. But can you build a tall building without foundations? Would we not all be better off if instead of saying No we said Yes - read the long post, understood it, and worked with the person and information/advice offered?

A few have taken this exactly as intended. A few have not. Unless there is something new or a direct question that someone feels they would like to ask, I will leave this here as I think it has run its course as a thread.

[reddust]

Would we not all be better off if instead of saying No we said Yes

Not always, I've done that in the past only to see that it doesn't work in 95% of the cases. There are a lot of things implied apart from saying yes or no to a collaboration, like finding the time to do stuff, finding the correct rhythm for a co-work (some people end their tasks much faster than others), finding a musical compatibility, and I'm not only talking about music composition but also in terms of which type of sounds each one of the people involved want to have and how to mix them together... and of course dealing with the egos, then as I said before, most people seem to think their own way to do things is the right one...

[Benedict]

Would we not all be better off if instead of saying No we said Yes

Not always, I've done that in the past only to see that it doesn't work in 95% of the cases. There are a lot of things implied apart from saying yes or no to a collaboration, like finding the time to do stuff, finding the correct rhythm for a co-work (some people end their tasks much faster than others), finding a musical compatibility, and I'm not only talking about music composition but also in terms of which type of sounds each one of the people involved want to have and how to mix them together... and of course dealing with the egos, then as I said before, most people seem to think their own way to do things is the right one...

I fully understand. As time goes by I am getting more and more willing & able to jettison those who don't do their half (just this morning I declined someone who wanted people to help with his game but couldn't tell the first thing about it, let alone if/when it would publish).

However, all those reasons also become a screen for fears? This is exactly what I was trying to address, only side-on as the moment anyone mentions Fears, people scatter shouting that they have no fears

My Game Dev (probably not pal anymore) blew it for want of doing the work he should have to make his wagon look like a good one to hop on. I would put money on his game never seeing the light of day because he is afraid of doing the real work. I hope one day that he realizes that you are not a Game Dev until you have a working game on the ground (or on Steam at least).

Until then he is a hoper which is increasingly a no-hoper if he won't do the work that counts.



p.s. I de read ALL the post and think on em, for what advice they do offer. I know that this is in-part me working stuff out too.

[reddust]

Not always, I've done that in the past only to see that it doesn't work in 95% of the cases. There are a lot of things implied apart from saying yes or no to a collaboration, like finding the time to do stuff, finding the correct rhythm for a co-work (some people end their tasks much faster than others), finding a musical compatibility, and I'm not only talking about music composition but also in terms of which type of sounds each one of the people involved want to have and how to mix them together... and of course dealing with the egos, then as I said before, most people seem to think their own way to do things is the right one...

I fully understand. As time goes by I am getting more and more willing & able to jettison those who don't do their half (just this morning I declined someone who wanted people to help with his game but couldn't tell the first thing about it, let alone if/when it would publish).

However, all those reasons also become a screen for fears? This is exactly what I was trying to address, only side-on as the moment anyone mentions Fears, people scatter shouting that they have no fears

My Game Dev (probably not pal anymore) blew it for want of doing the work he should have to make his wagon look like a good one to hop on. I would put money on his game never seeing the light of day because he is afraid of doing the real work. I hope one day that he realizes that you are not a Game Dev until you have a working game on the ground (or on Steam at least).

Until then he is a hoper which is increasingly a no-hoper if he won't do the work that counts.



p.s. I de read ALL the post and think on em, for what advice they do offer. I know that this is in-part me working stuff out too.

I totally agree with this, and you're right about the fears. I think fear is one of the worst enemies of creativity. There are quite a few of them for people who like to create.

In my case I can already tell my biggest fear is to actually finish a product and be satisfied with it, I know it sounds contradictory but I think I actually like living on the idea that I have still something nice and creative to do and the day I do I might feel empty because I have already done it and then what? Will I have reached my limits? Will I find out I'm just a mediocre or even bad musician? Actually it isn't really important since I don't make music to compete with others or to push myself to my limits but to enjoy and in those terms music is an endless source of joy, but that's something that I am still experiencing even when I am not the youngest, I mean, I know that idea of the path itself being the goal but experiencing that in life takes a lot of time sometimes to really understand.

About collaborating, I am personally not sure if you offered me your collaboration, I know you told me once about collaborating with a sound designer, but as English isn't my first language I wasn't sure if you were suggesting for us two to collaborate or if I just should search for a sound designer in general to get help. I hope I wasn't one of the guys who disappointed you but if I did I didn't on purpose and I am sorry for that (yeah, I can say I am sorry even when these days that word seems to be some kind of taboo).

Either way, I did think about working with a sound designer and to be honest, for me a big part of the fun of making music is to find out by myself how to get a concrete sound and working with someone who already knows how doesn't make sense for me at this time of my life, maybe later but not now because I really enjoy learning new things and I am not in a hurry to finish my songs. That and my lack of time for even doing the things I really want to do. I hope I can change that soon but unfortunately that's something that doesn't only depend on me.

And of course, I appreciate that you're someone who offers advice and help here, so don't get angry at people who don't appreciate that because maybe they don't even deserve your time or maybe they are just different, getting used to different people's behavior is sometimes hard or annoying but in my opinion a nice and rewarding task. Cheers

[Benedict]

Thanks Mr Dust

Yes indeed, Fear is the biggest problem and I have written a whole screed of articles (and a book from them) about that. Seems easier to give in to fears (and the excuses they create) but the ongoing pain is actually greater than doing something different

Yes, I believe I was trying to see if you would take that offer at the time. Your sense of having to DIY is part of the point of this OP: the idea of Siloing ourselves away - putting ourselves in a silo and closing the door, based on those fear-reasons that don't actually make sense in the light of logic - getting past them by saying Yes and seeing where that goes.

Personally I have learned way more when I have worked with people. The caveat here is that you do need to choose those people with some care. There are people who do and people who don't. Work with those who a) have proven that they do, and if at all possible b) have more skill or ability in that area than you do so you can learn from them as you go.

I often offer my skills to people who are less skilled than me. This is a good way to get kicked in the balls but it shouldn't have to be.

I want to be doing things that I can show to the world to prove that working with me is better than not working with me. To do that I need to keep doing things that have the hope of being seen. This OP was an attempt to set that seed.

Working with Reason people is easier than non-Reason people in that I can simply take the file instead of mess about with Stems that are un-mixable. My offers are fair in that I will return work above what the other person is doing, often at no $ cost but being involved and letting me do my thing. If the person doesn't love my mix or sounds then no loss (except they could learn a lot on the way). I have a Portfolio piece, they have improved skills and the Social Proof that they are worth working with and something to post on their Facebook.

So you see I wonder why people would be saying No to offers of help - would those people respond the same if my name was Mr Sony or Mr Deadmau5

[reddust]

Yeah I can totally understand, and there is nothing bad about collaborating. I weren't personally interested in collaborating if your name were Deadmau5, maybe if you were Mr Sony in case you're talking about Japan Sony, but that only because as my avatar already shows I am a Japan Freak, a weeb...

In my case I am not really interested in a collaboration right now because I am not looking to sell or show my product to the world as my primary goal, I am going to do that later if I end up doing something I consider worth showing, but my primary goal is the process of creating itself. That's why I am avoiding collaborations even when they always sound suggestive to me. But at the end they only deviate me from my chosen path and I end up wasting my time and other people's time as well.

So I decided to go my way and enjoy the process of learning to create music with synths and digital plugins - I was mainly a guitar player before. My plan is to write at least 8 to 10 songs I consider good enough to publish, if I get to that goal I will consider it a good point to do something else and start investing some time and energy in collaborations because as you said, there are people who do things and people who don't, and I did in the past but I am not really doing currently. It makes no sense for me now to waste your time and turn aside from my own path until I have at least reached that point.

[Benedict]

This may help people see what it is is I am trying to help them have happen
(I will post this fully in its own thread)

https://benedictroffmarsh.com/2020/01/1 ... w-i-do-it/