Re: Reason updates (11.3.7 / 11.3.8) and Reason+
Posted: 28 Jan 2021
I've been looking at other DAWs today. Man does studio one look good! Could anyone recommend it?
nothing. they were aware that we knew at least a couple of days before the livestream. plenty of time to do something.PhillipOrdonez wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021That is assuming they released it with the intention to create hype. What if that wasn't the case? What would that do to your argument?Timmy Crowne wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021
- RS releases the 11.3.7 update on Monday to generate hype. Who would be hyped? Existing users of course, since they would primarily be the ones who would see the updated preferences pane.
- RS releases a short video clip declaring that all questions would be answered in two days. Existing users, by and large, have been hoping for improvements to the core program. So naturally those users hoped the coming announcement would bring word of long-awaited features.
- Users tune in to the livestream only to find an announcement about a subscription plan, followed by the team excitedly talking about jingles, Zamboni's and labor unionization.
Yeah, I don't think it had to go down like that. I don't think angry users are to be blamed for misunderstanding anything. I think a far better scenario would have been 3 months from now, to say "Here's Reason 12! We've worked hard to implement the features you've asked for. And now you have two ways to pay: If you like to buy your license as usual, please do so! But you can alternatively subscribe for $20/month if you want."
- RS changes their website to obscure links to the Shop and the option to buy a perpetual license.
Please listen. Please try to understand.EnochLight wrote: ↑27 Jan 2021
In order for a subscription service to work, the service being offered needs to not only maintain its value, but improve. Subscriptions literally force the service to continually evolve and improve to stay relevant, else the subs (and revenue) disappear. In a nutshell: active subs give RS new money and incentive to keep improving Reason for all of us.
Make no mistake: third party devs have ALWAYS been competitors with Reason Studios (Propellerhead) from the day Rack Extensions launched. It would be silly for RS to make third party devs go away, and despite the loud voices of a few devs who feel burned, they will still have an opportunity to sell their RE's to Reasoners. In fact, subscribers to Reason will also be able to purchase RE's from third party devs, and as new customers, many of their RE's will be attractive.
So.. is now the time to invest? Theyre going to become filthy stinking rich now right?!?!sprinkles__ wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021Screen Shot 2021-01-28 at 17.45.56.pngcolonel_mustard wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021It's not a huge surprise, is it? The first sign of trouble that I noticed was the Verdane takeover:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7499884
Then the CEO was replaced:
https://www.musicradar.com/news/ernst-n ... -developer
All of this with 'optimistic' press releases of course.
Reason is an investment for a group of people who want to get rich(er), and grow the brand as big as they can. That's the reality that we're in.
Just one of the 'holdings', nestled between oil industry service companies, some online retailers, and marketing companies. Tells you all you need to know really.
The way Vital does it is perfect:MFW wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021No problem here with a subscription model, as long as it's an option.EnochLight wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021We all knew current users would rage about any sort of subscription announcement, regardless of how it was communicated, marketed, or otherwise slipped under user's pillow in the middle of the night. So how could they possibly have announced a subscription option any differently? Had they ignored existing users and just changed the website and ran some ads in places like KVR, Gearslutz, etc, and said nothing - do you honestly think the current user base would be any less enraged?
That they've buried the standalones at the bottom of the page, and the two main Products links for Reason and Reason+ both take you to the Reason+ ie subscription page hints at a little dishonesty.
Not to mention that the entire blurb on the Reason main page is all about Reason+, as if that's the only option available.
A more honest approach would have been to list Reason+ on the Products page so it's right next to Standard and Suite as a third buying option - Standard £309 Suite $600 Reason+ $20/mo - not the main one.
Right now, it doesn't affect us. But who's to say it won't in due course?
I can't on one hand think of any business model where the licence and sub are offered. Usually they're mutually exclusive.
Time will tell. What a mess.
Fair question. But what would be the purpose of releasing a software update that adds a visible option to the preferences pane with no accompanying documentation to explain it? And what would be the purpose of delaying that explanation for an additional 48 hours? Even if creating anticipation wasn't the objective, it clearly had that effect. That anticipation yielded disappointment among most users who have responded thus far. I believe the ultimate responsibility to manage public perception and expectations about a product must be laid at the feet of the business.PhillipOrdonez wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021That is assuming they released it with the intention to create hype. What if that wasn't the case? What would that do to your argument?
But it's a very legitimate feeling. I don't think the Reason DAW has many years of life ahead. The company is shifting gears right before our eyes. Do consider the alternatives. None is gonna be perfect. After all Reason is not either and here we are.plaamook wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021DL'd the demo last night.
I'm not bitter, I just hate this feeling like Reason's always hanging by a thread. Every time theres a tremmor, I look into alternatives. I can't help it. Last time it was BitWIg. Didn't like that much. I likePT but the demo wouldn't work last time I tried it.
I just want stable blank industry standard so I can get used to it and get on with making noise. All this niche stuffs a ball ache at times like this.
But would he subscribe?
hehe yeah, true dat. been here since 2000 and before that in the ReBirth community and it's always been like this love it though.esselfortium wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021I've been a user since 2003 and there have been "Reason is obviously dying because they aren't doing what I want, it definitely won't last another few years" posts for this entire time. Nearly 20 years of this! I'm sure in another 20 years the doomsayers will still be posting the same thing as confidently as ever.
Very true. But there is a difference between dying and fading slowly away into obscurity, however. You only need to look at the public financials to note the downward trend and even losses (although it's impossible to tell what is a real loss and not some tax avoidance weirdness). And as I note above, they have mixed messages.esselfortium wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021I've been a user since 2003 and there have been "Reason is obviously dying because they aren't doing what I want, it definitely won't last another few years" posts for this entire time. Nearly 20 years of this! I'm sure in another 20 years the doomsayers will still be posting the same thing as confidently as ever.
Pretty good.
Not saying they did a great job with the release. But given it is a basic function for the new product, it needed to be in place before launch, right?Timmy Crowne wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021Fair question. But what would be the purpose of releasing a software update that adds a visible option to the preferences pane with no accompanying documentation to explain it? And what would be the purpose of delaying that explanation for an additional 48 hours? Even if creating anticipation wasn't the objective, it clearly had that effect. That anticipation yielded disappointment among most users who have responded thus far. I believe the ultimate responsibility to manage public perception and expectations about a product must be laid at the feet of the business.PhillipOrdonez wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021That is assuming they released it with the intention to create hype. What if that wasn't the case? What would that do to your argument?
Studio One is can say best traditional DAW, but it only can be exists along with Reason, because Reason is best modular\wire based environment. Nothing can't will be replace it, nor Bitwig, nor VCV etc plugins, nor max\msp etc stuff. This is all incredibly sadder and worse than the divine implementation in Reason\RRP with his CV engine.
+1 Good call.Arrant wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021I've read every single post in this thread and it's time to throw my (long) 2 cents in.
First of all, great to see more members of Reason Studios's staff popping in. Welcome, hope you have the thick skin to stick around despite all the negativity, some of which is fair and some of which is blatantly unfair. We need you here, the lack of communication from your company has been and still is a problem, more on that later.
Mods, I respect every single one of you for your patience, reflections and obvious Reason knowledge, but your one-sidedness in defending RS no matter what is starting to make it look like you're on the payroll. Correcting baseless accusations and factual errors is of course appreciated, but constantly trying to play down legitimate concerns from a large portion of the user base is not.
The Reason+ launch was about as bad as expected. For us "Reason whales" (a good term coined earlier in this thread I believe) who already have all we need except core DAW improvements, of course the announcement is a disappointment. But it didn't have to be like that, did it?
Launching this service so late in a release cycle when existing users are thirsting for updates is the absolute worst possible timing. Had Reason+ been launched alongside a Reason12 with say VST3 support and improved graphics, this wouldn't have been a problem. Had it been launched slightly after Reason12, there wouldn't have been a problem. Had the website shown Reason12 "normal license" alongside Reason+ on equal footing, there wouldn't have been a problem. In fact I would have felt pretty good about the fact that we could get more Reason users on board, which is good for the company and good for us as users. I would also feel that the discounted Reason suite I picked up earlier was a pretty sweet deal, making the subscription pretty irrelevant for me at least short-term.
However, launching it now, without (in typical RS style) showing off even a glimpse of the new features to come, and making the product website appear like Reason+ is the only option on the table, AND removing the option to buy entry-level versions of the software, AND alienating 3rd party devs by effectively making their products virtually invisible and possibly irrelevant, of course it's going to provoke people. If your management can't see this, well frankly they're amateurs.
Verdane capital, I suspect you had no clue what kind of company you bought did you? I imagine you probably thought you could make some quick strategy changes and turn the company into a very appealing SaaS-company, lifting the valuation considerably before selling the company on or floating it on the stock exchange. It's not hard to find investment capital for SaaS-companies these days, not hard at all, even at ridiculous valuations. But Propellerheads wasn't a SaaS-company was it? Reason isn't accounting software that can be run perfectly in a web browser. Performance-critical and hardware-dependent desktop software like this doesn't really work like that. Nor is Reason like Netflix. It's not Spotify. Soundpacks are not movies or songs that people consume en masse and then mostly forget.
If you DO want to function like a SaaS-company, you'd better get a heck of a lot better at listening to your users and providing predictable roadmaps for the future. And that brings me on to my next point:
What kind of company does RS want to be? Propellerhead software had unique products for its time along with a certain cool and a CEO who didn't seem like he only cared about money. This coolness, and the name, appealed to a certain kind of people who felt at home slightly outside the mainstream. This helped create a great community that drew in brilliant individuals who made lots of tutorials, refills and (later) Rack Extensions which in turn helped the company grow. In this sceario, the company can thrive even while being quite secretive and - well - weird as long as the community is encouraged and helped along (i.e. given tools and exposure).
With the name change, company sale and CEO replacement (to be fair, it probably started even before all this with the PUF forum closure which was an enormous mistake) we are clearly not going in that direction anymore. That's OK, that could certainly work for me as a customer. But then you need to be a different kind of company, one that caters more to the mass market and exceeds quarterly revenue goals. Being that company is hard, and the employees working there need to get their heads out of their behinds and realise they aren't all that cool anymore and that working there is actually a real job. Users have expectations, and those expectations need to be met if you want them to pay for your products. Before investing in your software, they need to know that their investment is future proof. They need roadmaps, they need feature previews, and they need you to take their god damn feature requests seriously instead of working on all sorts of other crap. Yes, I know there are different teams but fringe teams must be managed and paid too.
So what's it gonna be? You can't be both, it doesn't work that way.
I had to reply to this quote this should be on the first page of this thread.. did you see the guy with glasses and long hair all geeked up talking and say I see your questions.. we have a staff to sort through them and point out to other guy I see your in reason studios all by yourself.. they looked so out of tuned .. and Mattias is like well I came up with reason the other guy we can call it reason prime hahaha ha well the joke will be quarter 3 when sales are flat.Timmy Crowne wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021
- RS releases the 11.3.7 update on Monday to generate hype. Who would be hyped? Existing users of course, since they would primarily be the ones who would see the updated preferences pane.
- RS releases a short video clip declaring that all questions would be answered in two days. Existing users, by and large, have been hoping for improvements to the core program. So naturally those users hoped the coming announcement would bring word of long-awaited features.
- Users tune in to the livestream only to find an announcement about a subscription plan, followed by the team excitedly talking about jingles, Zamboni's and labor unionization.
Yeah, I don't think it had to go down like that. I don't think angry users are to be blamed for misunderstanding anything. I think a far better scenario would have been 3 months from now, to say "Here's Reason 12! We've worked hard to implement the features you've asked for. And now you have two ways to pay: If you like to buy your license as usual, please do so! But you can alternatively subscribe for $20/month if you want."
- RS changes their website to obscure links to the Shop and the option to buy a perpetual license.
+1 Good summing.Timmy Crowne wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021
- RS releases the 11.3.7 update on Monday to generate hype. Who would be hyped? Existing users of course, since they would primarily be the ones who would see the updated preferences pane.
- RS releases a short video clip declaring that all questions would be answered in two days. Existing users, by and large, have been hoping for improvements to the core program. So naturally those users hoped the coming announcement would bring word of long-awaited features.
- Users tune in to the livestream only to find an announcement about a subscription plan, followed by the team excitedly talking about jingles, Zamboni's and labor unionization.
Yeah, I don't think it had to go down like that. I don't think angry users are to be blamed for misunderstanding anything. I think a far better scenario would have been 3 months from now, to say "Here's Reason 12! We've worked hard to implement the features you've asked for. And now you have two ways to pay: If you like to buy your license as usual, please do so! But you can alternatively subscribe for $20/month if you want."
- RS changes their website to obscure links to the Shop and the option to buy a perpetual license.
I actually think the order would have been better reversed. An announcement, blog post, or livestream explaining the way forward before launching the 11.3.7 update would have been more prudent in my opinion. I'm actually open to subscriptions in general. I just think there needs to be a strong value-proposition and a sense of goodwill in place, in order for a subscription plan to be well-received. Now to be clear, I fully agree that a number of users would vehemently object regardless. I just think that number would be far fewer.PhillipOrdonez wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021Not saying they did a great job with the release. But given it is a basic function for the new product, it needed to be in place before launch, right?
As far as the target audience, I agree 100%. I guess us old guys should just be happy with our old licenses and go on our merry old ways until the next time we see a reason to buy that lines up with our old expectations.wrote:Execution could have been better, no doubt. But I doubt they wanted to generate much anticipation among us the perpetuals since the product isn't even aimed at us. ♂️