Possible "coloration" of SSL mixer vs. 14:2 mixer?

[WongoTheSane]

I've updated the link
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By9ym ... HlDQUFRR3c

There is absolutely no way on earth you need that many devices, cables and complexity to test the original hypothesis, which was "the mixer adds color". If that's the hypothesis you want to check, you only have to compare the signals with and without the mixer, that's it. What you have actually proven here is this: if you keep chaining, in the most convoluted way, devices which you assume shouldn't introduce color, you're bound to find one that does in the end. But how does this prove that the mixer adds color???

You have 31 devices in that chain (not counting the TMAs), that's 29 more than is necessary!! You need a wav file, a mixer, and nothing else. Measure the output of the mixer against the same output without the mixer. End of! Now there are myriads of ways to compare them (Selig measures the output directly because he has the knowledge, I use a quick visual hack because I don't, coders will write a program to brute-compare, engineers will bench it with an external program...) but yours is simply wrong. 31 devices!! You're detecting the color from your measurements, not from the mixer... Yes, one of those devices adds color, but it's not the mixer, that's for sure.

[submonsterz]

you have reason 7 ? if so I can remake a file for you let me know if you want me to remake it for you.

R8. It would be great.

I've updated the link
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By9ym ... HlDQUFRR3c

There is absolutely no way on earth you need that many devices, cables and complexity to test the original hypothesis, which was "the mixer adds color". If that's the hypothesis you want to check, you only have to compare the signals with and without the mixer, that's it. What you have actually proven here is this: if you keep chaining, in the most convoluted way, devices which you assume shouldn't introduce color, you're bound to find one that does in the end. But how does this prove that the mixer adds color???

You have 31 devices in that chain (not counting the TMAs), that's 29 more than is necessary!! You need a wav file, a mixer, and nothing else. Measure the output of the mixer against the same output without the mixer. End of! Now there are myriads of ways to compare them (Selig measures the output directly because he has the knowledge, I use a quick visual hack because I don't, coders will write a program to brute-compare, engineers will bench it with an external program...) but yours is simply wrong. 31 devices!! You're detecting the color from your measurements, not from the mixer... Yes, one of those devices adds color, but it's not the mixer, that's for sure.

why quote me my test is not applicable to what you write here .
download that r7 file I just put up there and look big meter and your spectrum nothing wrong with my test all audio was bounced via io straight from each device nothing in between adding gain shows there is problems under reasons radar plain and simple argue all you want but I'm convinced theres something amiss totally....

[WongoTheSane]

why quote me my test is not applicable to what you write here .

Sorry, your quote was embedded within 8cros' message, I was answering to him. I'll edit my post.

[8cros]

you have reason 7 ? if so I can remake a file for you let me know if you want me to remake it for you.

R8. Reaason 7 it would be great.

I've updated the link And examples.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By9ym ... HlDQUFRR3c

here ya go an r7 file look at spectrum on master as playing file too especially the end clips where 48db gain added .

r7 null and gain test.rar

You are correct to compare multiple mixer channels.
But this way you will not find color. mixer channels are absolutely identical. You need a mixer comparison with something. IMHO

[submonsterz]

you have reason 7 ? if so I can remake a file for you let me know if you want me to remake it for you.

R8. Reaason 7 it would be great.

I've updated the link And examples.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By9ym ... HlDQUFRR3c

here ya go an r7 file look at spectrum on master as playing file too especially the end clips where 48db gain added .

r7 null and gain test.rar

You are correct to compare multiple mixer channels.
But this way you will not find color. mixer channels are absolutely identical. You need a mixer comparison with something. IMHO

each different track is its own separate bounce directly via the io from the devices listed in the track
ie rex bounce rex player direct from rex out to io in
master bounce rex to mix channel
14.2 rex in channel 1 and 14.2 out direct to io
6.2 rex in channel 1 and 6.2 out direct to io
all bounced 44.1 and used 24 bit so no dither.
colouration if that is what is shown when gained is in the bounces that were all exported separately and imported into mix channels.

[WongoTheSane]

each different track is its own separate bounce directly via the io from the devices listed in the track
ie rex bounce rex player direct from rex out to io in
master bounce rex to mix channel
14.2 rex in channel 1 and 14.2 out direct to io
6.2 rex in channel 1 and 6.2 out direct to io
all bounced 44.1 and used 24 bit so no dither.
colouration if that is what is shown when gained is in the bounces that were all exported separately and imported into mix channels.

Why don't you simply test that all values in the bounces are at zero? That would be much easier, much faster and would definitely eliminite the gain stage as a possible source. Is there a particular reason you chose this way?

Also, does Bounce dither?

[submonsterz]

each different track is its own separate bounce directly via the io from the devices listed in the track
ie rex bounce rex player direct from rex out to io in
master bounce rex to mix channel
14.2 rex in channel 1 and 14.2 out direct to io
6.2 rex in channel 1 and 6.2 out direct to io
all bounced 44.1 and used 24 bit so no dither.
colouration if that is what is shown when gained is in the bounces that were all exported separately and imported into mix channels.

Why don't you simply test that all values in the bounces are at zero? That would be much easier, much faster and would definitely eliminite the gain stage as a possible source. Is there a particular reason you chose this way?

Also, does Bounce dither?

bounce as in export not a bounce internally for the record.
and adding gain is showing what is beneath reasons noise floor that the big meter goes down too.
it is also going with what is showing up in isotope etc as they have much lower noise floor so these abnomillys show in them programs .
adding gain should not taint or effect the test if so then there is a problem with reasons or seligs gain gain methods
no gain was added before the audio exports all were straight nothing touched direct to io all gain is being added on file I provide after bounces from each device.
and as far as I know of exporting audio at 24 bit does not have dither

[8cros]

you have reason 7 ? if so I can remake a file for you let me know if you want me to remake it for you.

R8. Reaason 7 it would be great.

I've updated the link And examples.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By9ym ... HlDQUFRR3c

here ya go an r7 file look at spectrum on master as playing file too especially the end clips where 48db gain added .

r7 null and gain test.rar

You are correct to compare multiple mixer channels.
But this way you will not find color. mixer channels are absolutely identical. You need a mixer comparison with something. IMHO

each different track is its own separate bounce directly via the io from the devices listed in the track
ie rex bounce rex player direct from rex out to io in
master bounce rex to mix channel
14.2 rex in channel 1 and 14.2 out direct to io
6.2 rex in channel 1 and 6.2 out direct to io
all bounced 44.1 and used 24 bit so no dither.
colouration if that is what is shown when gained is in the bounces that were all exported separately and imported into mix channels.

I see, thank you.

24-bit is not enough. Because in my case, after subtracting the signals I added +163.2 decibels. But color 14: 2 and 6: 2 mixers in your example is easy to find. You need to add 94 dB to the master.

[WongoTheSane]

each different track is its own separate bounce directly via the io from the devices listed in the track
ie rex bounce rex player direct from rex out to io in
master bounce rex to mix channel
14.2 rex in channel 1 and 14.2 out direct to io
6.2 rex in channel 1 and 6.2 out direct to io
all bounced 44.1 and used 24 bit so no dither.
colouration if that is what is shown when gained is in the bounces that were all exported separately and imported into mix channels.

Why don't you simply test that all values in the bounces are at zero? That would be much easier, much faster and would definitely eliminite the gain stage as a possible source. Is there a particular reason you chose this way?

Also, does Bounce dither?

bounce as in export not a bounce internally for the record.
and adding gain is showing what is beneath reasons noise floor that the big meter goes down too.
it is also going with what is showing up in isotope etc as they have much lower noise floor so these abnomillys show in them programs .
adding gain should not taint or effect the test if so then there is a problem with reasons or seligs gain gain methods
no gain was added before the audio exports all were straight nothing touched direct to io all gain is being added on file I provide after bounces from each device.
and as far as I know of exporting audio at 24 bit does not have dither

But... What are you trying to prove/disprove? We're not on the mixer color anymore? Do you mean that Reason in general adds noise, and you're trying to prove that?

[submonsterz]

you have reason 7 ? if so I can remake a file for you let me know if you want me to remake it for you.

R8. Reaason 7 it would be great.

I've updated the link And examples.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By9ym ... HlDQUFRR3c

here ya go an r7 file look at spectrum on master as playing file too especially the end clips where 48db gain added .

r7 null and gain test.rar

You are correct to compare multiple mixer channels.
But this way you will not find color. mixer channels are absolutely identical. You need a mixer comparison with something. IMHO

each different track is its own separate bounce directly via the io from the devices listed in the track
ie rex bounce rex player direct from rex out to io in
master bounce rex to mix channel
14.2 rex in channel 1 and 14.2 out direct to io
6.2 rex in channel 1 and 6.2 out direct to io
all bounced 44.1 and used 24 bit so no dither.
colouration if that is what is shown when gained is in the bounces that were all exported separately and imported into mix channels.

I see, thank you.

24-bit is not enough. Because in my case, after subtracting the signals I added +163.2 decibels. But color 14: 2 and 6: 2 mixers in your example is easy to find. You need to add 94 dB to the master.

yes I just added more gain to the file and see master then becomes noticeable

[selig]

I see, thank you.

24-bit is not enough. Because in my case, after subtracting the signals I added +163.2 decibels. But color 14: 2 and 6: 2 mixers in your example is easy to find. You need to add 94 dB to the master.

Why on earth add 94 dB? That's like saying "my car doesn't sound right when I rev the engine to the max and hold it there". No one ever does this in practice, so even if it DOES color the sound who cares?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[submonsterz]

each different track is its own separate bounce directly via the io from the devices listed in the track
ie rex bounce rex player direct from rex out to io in
master bounce rex to mix channel
14.2 rex in channel 1 and 14.2 out direct to io
6.2 rex in channel 1 and 6.2 out direct to io
all bounced 44.1 and used 24 bit so no dither.
colouration if that is what is shown when gained is in the bounces that were all exported separately and imported into mix channels.

Why don't you simply test that all values in the bounces are at zero? That would be much easier, much faster and would definitely eliminite the gain stage as a possible source. Is there a particular reason you chose this way?

Also, does Bounce dither?

bounce as in export not a bounce internally for the record.
and adding gain is showing what is beneath reasons noise floor that the big meter goes down too.
it is also going with what is showing up in isotope etc as they have much lower noise floor so these abnomillys show in them programs .
adding gain should not taint or effect the test if so then there is a problem with reasons or seligs gain gain methods
no gain was added before the audio exports all were straight nothing touched direct to io all gain is being added on file I provide after bounces from each device.
and as far as I know of exporting audio at 24 bit does not have dither

But... What are you trying to prove/disprove? We're not on the mixer color anymore? Do you mean that Reason in general adds noise, and you're trying to prove that?

errmmm so the thread has gone off the origanal thread topic ??
I am not trying to prove anything but the reality that people have bashed ie stranger in his findings when he was trying to help people and just saying I find he was correct and theres my proof and the it does not exist sayers are obviously not testing correctly to look below what reasons meters etc tell you.
I was just trying to help too in showing that theres is something there noise colour what ever it is it exists

[submonsterz]

I see, thank you.

24-bit is not enough. Because in my case, after subtracting the signals I added +163.2 decibels. But color 14: 2 and 6: 2 mixers in your example is easy to find. You need to add 94 dB to the master.

Why on earth add 94 dB? That's like saying "my car doesn't sound right when I rev the engine to the max and hold it there". No one ever does this in practice, so even if it DOES color the sound who cares?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ermmm selig you are one of the ones that says it does not with others
to say who cares is errmm
well people obviously do care or they would not want to make topics to find out if there is any truth in it all.

[selig]

errmmm so the thread has gone off the origanal thread topic ??
I am not trying to prove anything but the reality that people have bashed ie stranger in his findings when he was trying to help people and just saying I find he was correct and theres my proof and the it does not exist sayers are obviously not testing correctly to look below what reasons meters etc tell you.
I was just trying to help too in showing that theres is something there noise colour what ever it is it exists

The problem is not everyone is able to replicate the test and get the same result. I don't see any color or noise using test gear that I trust. So how to resolve?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[submonsterz]

errmmm so the thread has gone off the origanal thread topic ??
I am not trying to prove anything but the reality that people have bashed ie stranger in his findings when he was trying to help people and just saying I find he was correct and theres my proof and the it does not exist sayers are obviously not testing correctly to look below what reasons meters etc tell you.
I was just trying to help too in showing that theres is something there noise colour what ever it is it exists

The problem is not everyone is able to replicate the test and get the same result. I don't see any color or noise using test gear that I trust. So how to resolve?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

is my test not replicable on your system ?

[8cros]

I see, thank you.

24-bit is not enough. Because in my case, after subtracting the signals I added +163.2 decibels. But color 14: 2 and 6: 2 mixers in your example is easy to find. You need to add 94 dB to the master.

Why on earth add 94 dB? That's like saying "my car doesn't sound right when I rev the engine to the max and hold it there". No one ever does this in practice, so even if it DOES color the sound who cares?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, nobody needs that. But everyone is interested the theory of beyond undetectable coloring, so I do what I'm wondering.

I can pull it out, making a louder and use distortion effects or synthesizers for example.

[submonsterz]

anyhow ill exit this topic now before it turns to a shit storm .
carry on fellas

[joeyluck]

Ok, so I did what everyone else is saying, and I'm not seeing any color.

Here's a screenshot to show my findings:

Reason-color.jpg (707.59 KiB) Viewed 3353 times

[selig]

I see, thank you.

24-bit is not enough. Because in my case, after subtracting the signals I added +163.2 decibels. But color 14: 2 and 6: 2 mixers in your example is easy to find. You need to add 94 dB to the master.

Why on earth add 94 dB? That's like saying "my car doesn't sound right when I rev the engine to the max and hold it there". No one ever does this in practice, so even if it DOES color the sound who cares?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ermmm selig you are one of the ones that says it does not with others
to say who cares is errmm
well people obviously do care or they would not want to make topics to find out if there is any truth in it all.

I said who cares if it adds color only under those extreme circumstances that nobody will ever experience. That's a valid point IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[8cros]

I see, thank you.

24-bit is not enough. Because in my case, after subtracting the signals I added +163.2 decibels. But color 14: 2 and 6: 2 mixers in your example is easy to find. You need to add 94 dB to the master.

Why on earth add 94 dB? That's like saying "my car doesn't sound right when I rev the engine to the max and hold it there". No one ever does this in practice, so even if it DOES color the sound who cares?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ermmm selig you are one of the ones that says it does not with others
to say who cares is errmm
well people obviously do care or they would not want to make topics to find out if there is any truth in it all.

I said who cares if it adds color only under those extreme circumstances that nobody will ever experience. That's a valid point IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Now we can say that the mixer changes sound. Even if it's masked.
We can rise to conspiracy theories.
It has a low level, but the effect on the harmonics greater than the fundamental tone.

[WongoTheSane]

errmmm so the thread has gone off the origanal thread topic ??
I am not trying to prove anything but the reality that people have bashed ie stranger in his findings when he was trying to help people and just saying I find he was correct and theres my proof and the it does not exist sayers are obviously not testing correctly to look below what reasons meters etc tell you.
I was just trying to help too in showing that theres is something there noise colour what ever it is it exists

Well, yes, it's gone off the original topic, which was: is there a difference in the output signal between the SSL and the 14:2. Stranger said there was, and several people chimed in to note that his protocols were wrong. We provided several ways to test both hypotheses (#1: the output is different between a 14:2 and the SSL; #2: the 14:2 adds color). Both tests are really, really easy and literally take under a minute, but several other people have posted tests that try to answer both questions at once, while adding a third one: #3 Reason colors the sound.

That's where I (and I expect several others) object in the strongest terms:

1) you don't test three things at once. That's not how it's done.
2) you can't test whether X adds Y if you don't know what Y is (and are still unsure about what X is because it's been chained to an inordinate and superfluous amount of devices). Both your and 8cros' test show noise, not color (actually, 8cros' test shows phasing delay IMHO, neither noise nor color).
3) Occam: the explanation that requires the least assumptions is probably the right one. i.e. if you test only the pure output of a 14:2 and the pure output of the SSL and it DOES null perfectly bit for bit; and then you start piling gain methods and some "noise" starts to appear, the noise comes from your gain methods.
4) If you submit your tests to other, be clear on what you are testing and what you're trying to show. Noise is not color, and the tests for both are very different.

Right now, you've successfully convinced me that in some cases, some devices can add an infinitesimal amount of noise (but it's not something I would have doubted anyway); you haven't convinced me that it's color, nor that it is introduced by Reason, the SSL or the 14:2. Again, that was the point of the thread.

(to be clear: it's not a personal attack, I'm just defending the point of view of "the skeptics team". I have opened and studied the song you posted and agree it's interesting, but again: not Reason, not SLL, not 14:2, not color).

[8cros]

errmmm so the thread has gone off the origanal thread topic ??
I am not trying to prove anything but the reality that people have bashed ie stranger in his findings when he was trying to help people and just saying I find he was correct and theres my proof and the it does not exist sayers are obviously not testing correctly to look below what reasons meters etc tell you.
I was just trying to help too in showing that theres is something there noise colour what ever it is it exists

Well, yes, it's gone off the original topic, which was: is there a difference in the output signal between the SSL and the 14:2. Stranger said there was, and several people chimed in to note that his protocols were wrong. We provided several ways to test both hypotheses (#1: the output is different between a 14:2 and the SSL; #2: the 14:2 adds color). Both tests are really, really easy and literally take under a minute, but several other people have posted tests that try to answer both questions at once, while adding a third one: #3 Reason colors the sound.

That's where I (and I expect several others) object in the strongest terms:

1) you don't test three things at once. That's not how it's done.
2) you can't test whether X adds Y if you don't know what Y is (and are still unsure about what X is because it's been chained to an inordinate and superfluous amount of devices). Both your and 8cros' test show noise, not color (actually, 8cros' test shows phasing delay IMHO, neither noise nor color).
3) Occam: the explanation that requires the least assumptions is probably the right one. i.e. if you test only the pure output of a 14:2 and the pure output of the SSL and it DOES null perfectly bit for bit; and then you start piling gain methods and some "noise" starts to appear, the noise comes from your gain methods.
4) If you submit your tests to other, be clear on what you are testing and what you're trying to show. Noise is not color, and the tests for both are very different.

Right now, you've successfully convinced me that in some cases, some devices can add an infinitesimal amount of noise (but it's not something I would have doubted anyway); you haven't convinced me that it's color, nor that it is introduced by Reason, the SSL or the 14:2. Again, that was the point of the thread.

(to be clear: it's not a personal attack, I'm just defending the point of view of "the skeptics team". I have opened and studied the song you posted and agree it's interesting, but again: not Reason, not SLL, not 14:2, not color).

I have used several different methods of volume gain they do not give noise.
I try to call it in different words: color, noise, artifact, change, etc.

[orthodox]

24-bit is not enough. Because in my case, after subtracting the signals I added +163.2 decibels...

I would like to remind you that the machine epsilon is -138.5 dB for the Float32 type.
So anything you may discover in that range is simply a digital noise that comes from rounding errors.

[8cros]

24-bit is not enough. Because in my case, after subtracting the signals I added +163.2 decibels...

I would like to remind you that the machine epsilon is -138.5 dB for the Float32 type.
So anything you may discover in that range is simply a digital noise that comes from rounding errors.

In MClass equalizer for example no one rounding error.

[selig]

errmmm so the thread has gone off the origanal thread topic ??
I am not trying to prove anything but the reality that people have bashed ie stranger in his findings when he was trying to help people and just saying I find he was correct and theres my proof and the it does not exist sayers are obviously not testing correctly to look below what reasons meters etc tell you.
I was just trying to help too in showing that theres is something there noise colour what ever it is it exists

The problem is not everyone is able to replicate the test and get the same result. I don't see any color or noise using test gear that I trust. So how to resolve?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

is my test not replicable on your system ?

Sorry, I've not been home all day, out entertaining family from out of town. I'll try it in the next few days and report back here.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk