Fighting with Reason

[selig]

Sorry to quote,but I feel there is a big difference of opinions as nothing has been 'proven' -at all = this is why these topics keep re-appearing.
I think it's a debatable topic because of the wide choice of algorithms used,and how each user system,operating platform,interfaces and internal daw engines actually process information.
Users must be aware that each time a recording is made,or,a file is opened or interacted with in any way-a change occurs.
Until the day everybody works on the same 'page'-there will always be differences.
Please,continue.
Show some data,because computers work with data-- whereas audio does not need to be digitatized.

These topics keep reappearing because people are stubborn and they let their mind trick them into hearing things that aren't there.

A song made in Reason sounds exactly the same on computer A as on computer B if it uses the same sample rate. Doesn't matter if it's Windows Vista, or 10, or MAC OS, or whatever. All that vague OS "logic" doesn't affect the audio in any way. In the end it's just the playing of a sample (in case of audio). The only thing that makes a difference in the actual sound might be an interface, but since the DAW engine precedes the interface, we can eliminate that from the equation, because it's not about that, it's about the internal DAW "engine".

Errm no computer a and b might have totally different sound via interface and dacs used etc its all the conversions and how well.it does them and os also do to some extent also can differ in how it deals with audio to .
Im sorry i totally dissagree on your figuring on your response to logismos post.there are just way to many variables to count out differences there im afraid.
Just to add it matters not if the daw engine is the same as no daw stops at the engine it then goes to the mixers and errm if all mixers worked and dounded the same between daws there wouldbt be need for different mixers at all as they all add something different which goes to proove my point i made from signal path of daw engine to anything beyond will give differenf results .

If folks don't educate themselves as to how to effectively remove the variables when making comparisons, then there will continue to be disagreements IMO.

[Gulale]

DAWs sound the same huh? Just for fun, http://src.infinitewave.ca

[Logismos]

DAWs sound the same huh? Just for fun, http://src.infinitewave.ca

^Lol- now you see? Thank you Gulale.
It's bedtime for this topic now=gg.
Merkage.

[8cros]

DAWs sound the same huh? Just for fun, http://src.infinitewave.ca

Yes, these charts confirm that you will not hear any difference

[Kenni]

DAWs sound the same huh? Just for fun, http://src.infinitewave.ca

How is that an argument that DAW's doesn't produce the same signal? Which of those figures show audible differences when you use Propellerheads Reason 8.3 as a parameter for comparison?

The only result that varies greatly (visually) is the 1Khz tone (with Reason producing a digitally clean result), but the fluctuations happens at -110dB. So, to repeat: Which of those comparisions show audible differences?

[selig]

DAWs sound the same huh? Just for fun, http://src.infinitewave.ca

That's a different discussion entirely, has NOTHING to do with passing audio cleanly, and is ONLY in effect if you choose to convert to a different sample rate.

Please, let's not confuse the issue any more than we have already done!
It's like we're talking about the difference in MPG efficiency of cars and you introduce a chart comparing the failure rates of tires…

[EnochLight]

Sorry to quote,but I feel there is a big difference of opinions as nothing has been 'proven' -at all = this is why these topics keep re-appearing.
I think it's a debatable topic because of the wide choice of algorithms used,and how each user system,operating platform,interfaces and internal daw engines actually process information.
Users must be aware that each time a recording is made,or,a file is opened or interacted with in any way-a change occurs.
Until the day everybody works on the same 'page'-there will always be differences.
Please,continue.
Show some data,because computers work with data-- whereas audio does not need to be digitatized.

These topics keep reappearing because people are stubborn and they let their mind trick them into hearing things that aren't there.

A song made in Reason sounds exactly the same on computer A as on computer B if it uses the same sample rate. Doesn't matter if it's Windows Vista, or 10, or MAC OS, or whatever. All that vague OS "logic" doesn't affect the audio in any way. In the end it's just the playing of a sample (in case of audio). The only thing that makes a difference in the actual sound might be an interface, but since the DAW engine precedes the interface, we can eliminate that from the equation, because it's not about that, it's about the internal DAW "engine".

Errm no computer a and b might have totally different sound via interface and dacs used etc its all the conversions and how well.it does them and os also do to some extent also can differ in how it deals with audio to .
Im sorry i totally dissagree on your figuring on your response to logismos post.there are just way to many variables to count out differences there im afraid.
Just to add it matters not if the daw engine is the same as no daw stops at the engine it then goes to the mixers and errm if all mixers worked and dounded the same between daws there wouldbt be need for different mixers at all as they all add something different which goes to proove my point i made from signal path of daw engine to anything beyond will give differenf results .

It's important to remember that you may be talking about two different things. Add a DAC or different sound card into the mix, no matter what OS or hardware, and you've moved the goal posts of the arguement.

But take 3 computers, A, B, and C - each with their own various sound cards, DAC, and different OS. Render the same project with the same settings on all 3 to stems or mixdown and play all 3 on the same computer. That resulting file will sound identical.

But if one of those computers have different DAC, soundcards, or one is hooked up to grade A studio monitors and the other is hooked up to Apple ear-buds, then of course it will affect your mix and resulting rendered files.

[Logismos]

[..But take 3 computers, A, B, and C - each with their own various sound cards, DAC, and different OS. Render the same project with the same settings on all 3 to stems or mixdown and play all 3 on the same computer. That resulting file will sound identical..

Ok- i'm willing to accept this-but from where did you draw your conclusions//findings from? the net,or from personal testing/observations??
No verifiable analytical proof=no pudding m8.
Please provide.

[selig]

[..But take 3 computers, A, B, and C - each with their own various sound cards, DAC, and different OS. Render the same project with the same settings on all 3 to stems or mixdown and play all 3 on the same computer. That resulting file will sound identical..

Ok- i'm willing to accept this-but from where did you draw your conclusions//findings from? the net,or from personal testing/observations??
No verifiable analytical proof=no pudding m8.
Please provide.

I know this doesn't directly answer your question, but it's easy to find lots of people saying this, and very difficult to find many saying otherwise (among those who can back up what they say). I gave one big example earlier in this thread, a comparison of 29 DAWs where the conclusion was at best that only a few claimed to be able to tell the difference, and none claimed to be able to identify any one file in a blind test. But even among those who claimed to have a preference, there was no agreement as to which was the overall "favorite" (nor did any provide any real data on how they came to those conclusions). The be fair, the point of that test (and my contention here) is that you should listen for yourself rather than trust anyone else's opinion!.
Go figure.



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[submonsterz]

[..But take 3 computers, A, B, and C - each with their own various sound cards, DAC, and different OS. Render the same project with the same settings on all 3 to stems or mixdown and play all 3 on the same computer. That resulting file will sound identical..

Ok- i'm willing to accept this-but from where did you draw your conclusions//findings from? the net,or from personal testing/observations??
No verifiable analytical proof=no pudding m8.
Please provide.

Yes he did mention science earlier i see that too.
Even though to most people it would sound the same on the same machine of all three the science would be to look at the wav forms and spectrums of said three renders to scientifically see the differences in all three which ill go on to say will allmost all have a slightly different set of plots . Hey some people do actually hear things that others do not and science also prooves this.

[selig]

[..But take 3 computers, A, B, and C - each with their own various sound cards, DAC, and different OS. Render the same project with the same settings on all 3 to stems or mixdown and play all 3 on the same computer. That resulting file will sound identical..

Ok- i'm willing to accept this-but from where did you draw your conclusions//findings from? the net,or from personal testing/observations??
No verifiable analytical proof=no pudding m8.
Please provide.

Yes he did mention science earlier i see that too.
Even though to most people it would sound the same on the same machine of all three the science would be to look at the wav forms and spectrums of said three renders to scientifically see the differences in all three which ill go on to say will allmost all have a slightly different set of plots . Hey some people do actually hear things that others do not and science also prooves this.

Worse yet, and this came up in the comparison test I've mentioned previously, is that MANY of the compared DAWs produced numerically IDENTICAL files and yet listeners STILL heard a difference. So, science?



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[submonsterz]

[..But take 3 computers, A, B, and C - each with their own various sound cards, DAC, and different OS. Render the same project with the same settings on all 3 to stems or mixdown and play all 3 on the same computer. That resulting file will sound identical..

Ok- i'm willing to accept this-but from where did you draw your conclusions//findings from? the net,or from personal testing/observations??
No verifiable analytical proof=no pudding m8.
Please provide.

Yes he did mention science earlier i see that too.
Even though to most people it would sound the same on the same machine of all three the science would be to look at the wav forms and spectrums of said three renders to scientifically see the differences in all three which ill go on to say will allmost all have a slightly different set of plots . Hey some people do actually hear things that others do not and science also prooves this.

Worse yet, and this came up in the comparison test I've mentioned previously, is that MANY of the compared DAWs produced numerically IDENTICAL files and yet listeners STILL heard a difference. So, science?



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Im not shure if you are agreeing here or not but if not are you saying what im saying is in conjunction to a test between daw engines or what i been saying once its past the initial signal path of pre anything mixers pluggins etc that they would result in the same wav plots etc ???

[Logismos]

All I can finalize here with is 3 things.
All in all the differences is phase-that's it.
I'm too buzy making love with my 'music',to see any fight in this artform.
Have fun making your music,enjoy the learning

[selig]

[..But take 3 computers, A, B, and C - each with their own various sound cards, DAC, and different OS. Render the same project with the same settings on all 3 to stems or mixdown and play all 3 on the same computer. That resulting file will sound identical..

Ok- i'm willing to accept this-but from where did you draw your conclusions//findings from? the net,or from personal testing/observations??
No verifiable analytical proof=no pudding m8.
Please provide.

Yes he did mention science earlier i see that too.
Even though to most people it would sound the same on the same machine of all three the science would be to look at the wav forms and spectrums of said three renders to scientifically see the differences in all three which ill go on to say will allmost all have a slightly different set of plots . Hey some people do actually hear things that others do not and science also prooves this.

Worse yet, and this came up in the comparison test I've mentioned previously, is that MANY of the compared DAWs produced numerically IDENTICAL files and yet listeners STILL heard a difference. So, science?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Im not shure if you are agreeing here or not but if not are you saying what im saying is in conjunction to a test between daw engines or what i been saying once its past the initial signal path of pre anything mixers pluggins etc that they would result in the same wav plots etc ???

Sorry, I could have been more clear - I'm simply pointing out the complexity of the issue.


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[selig]

All I can finalize here with is 3 things.
All in all the differences is phase-that's it.
I'm too buzy making love with my 'music',to see any fight in this artform.
Have fun making your music,enjoy the learning

Can I ask how you conclude that the difference is phase?



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[EnochLight]

Ok- i'm willing to accept this-but from where did you draw your conclusions//findings from? the net,or from personal testing/observations??

Both, including my own testing. Conducted testing on my current 4-5 year old PC build, an old laptop with cheap onboard sound, and my wife's 3 year old Macbook. I'd also refer you to the article Selig mentioned. That said, don't take my word as proof - conduct the tests for yourself. It's easily verifiable.

No verifiable analytical proof=no pudding m8.
Please provide.

See the above.

Yes he did mention science earlier i see that too.

Exactly. I'd recommend anyone seeking a concrete answer should perform the tests themselves.

[submonsterz]

Ok- i'm willing to accept this-but from where did you draw your conclusions//findings from? the net,or from personal testing/observations??

Both, including my own testing. Conducted testing on my current 4-5 year old PC build, an old laptop with cheap onboard sound, and my wife's 3 year old Macbook. I'd also refer you to the article Selig mentioned. That said, don't take my word as proof - conduct the tests for yourself. It's easily verifiable.

No verifiable analytical proof=no pudding m8.
Please provide.

See the above.

Yes he did mention science earlier i see that too.

Exactly. I'd recommend anyone seeking a concrete answer should perform the tests themselves.

Ive done plenty of my own tests here in the time ive had reason to be honest i got wait for it four actual desktops here with differing audio setups and o's and two laptops and a notebook. Just so you know i got plenty to compare with here . I used to beta test certain things audio wise thst i wont go into here but i think i have got enough to and have to compare with . And i allways look to at least persample info when i have done random tests.

[EnochLight]

And so it goes...

[selig]

And so it goes...

Exactly - anyone interested in writing a blog post that we can point to when this issue arises (inevitably) again?
No?

[drloop]

I think there is no reason (woho!) to write a blog post because it is the nature of man to have an information bias so a blog post do not help in cases like this. No matter how much you explain it will not change the opinion... and in this thread Riverman had something limiting or compressing more on the PT version compared to Reason. Could only be of two reasons, trying to fool someone with the files or was fooled himself by the audiochain in PT or Reason.
Case closed.

[Ottostrom]

I love how the people who claim to have evidence that prove Reason sounds worse compared to other daws ALWAYS fail to provide that evidence to others.

[WongoTheSane]

I love how the people who claim to have evidence that prove Reason sounds worse compared to other daws ALWAYS fail to provide that evidence to others.

Or reverse the burden of proof. "Prove me there are no aliens!" No mate, until science finds a way to demonstrate a negative proposition, the burden is on you.

[8cros]

I love how the people who claim to have evidence that prove Reason sounds worse compared to other daws ALWAYS fail to provide that evidence to others.

Or reverse the burden of proof. "Prove me there are no aliens!" No mate, until science finds a way to demonstrate a negative proposition, the burden is on you.

You do not know all the troubles.
It's just a joke. I've seen entire generations of people disappeared in the Russian-speaking communities because of the unimaginable trolling.

Do you want a mixture of moderation, cynicism, hatred of Reason and carelessness?
When Reason is only for show. And in fact, all do not use it.

[selig]

I love how the people who claim to have evidence that prove Reason sounds worse compared to other daws ALWAYS fail to provide that evidence to others.

Or reverse the burden of proof. "Prove me there are no aliens!" No mate, until science finds a way to demonstrate a negative proposition, the burden is on you.

Then don't state it as a negative: Prove to me there ARE aliens. Does that make it any easier?

In our case, isn't the negative proposition: prove to me there is NO change introduced by running audio through Reason (or summing audio in Reason)?

Just thinking out loud, nothing to see here.
Or is there?
(Watching too much Black Mirror lately…)

[selig]

I love how the people who claim to have evidence that prove Reason sounds worse compared to other daws ALWAYS fail to provide that evidence to others.

Or reverse the burden of proof. "Prove me there are no aliens!" No mate, until science finds a way to demonstrate a negative proposition, the burden is on you.

You do not know all the troubles.
It's just a joke. I've seen entire generations of people disappeared in the Russian-speaking communities because of the unimaginable trolling.

Do you want a mixture of moderation, cynicism, hatred of Reason and carelessness?
When Reason is only for show. And in fact, all do not use it.

Speaking of Black Mirror - I know you use a translation app, but sometimes your posts come across like not-quite-ready-for-prime-time AI algorithms…

Sorry, carry on, nothing to see here!