VST's - Reason discussion

[Ostermilk]

I don't get why people think rewire is so much work. You just set it up once, save it as a template, and load it up anytime you want to use Reason as a slave to another DAW. I do that whenever I want to use more audio (in which case I use Live as the master).

...and even migrating a Reason-only track to rewire isn't difficult--takes maybe 5 minutes. But again, if you always use an external DAW as a master, then just make a template and--POOF--there you go, just like magic.

I totally agree.

Some of the lengths people go to doing the loopback workaround is astonishing, yet 10 minutes working out the in's and out's of Rewire would soon kill off the idea that looping back is any kind of solution in most circumstances.

However if one does want high performance audio loopback or wants to run more than one ASIO capable host and can't do it via hardware then get a tool for the job, on Windows that means this.

http://odeus-audio.com.au/Odeus/AsioLinkPro

Jack, Virtual Audio Cable etc will all work but they use portaudio which means additional latency which may be OK if you are using native Windows audio anyway but if you've got an ASIO equipped interface there's only one way to go. Don't forget though even if you are using that fastest hardware loopback possible you WILL be adding the extra input latency when rendering VSTi's there no physical way on earth that you can avoid that.

Much better Rewiring and importing synced stems from a host DAW from that POV alone.

[submonsterz]

What happens to your undo's on saving ???.

I'm not saying the way Reason handles it is perfect by any stretch, but you're going to have to try harder to convince me of the clusterfuck I just experienced in Studio One while trying to undo a simple DAW setting is somehow better.

I dont use studio one so i would not know its methods i have other than reason fl studio and reaper both handle undos superb here. Reaper just has every option you can shake a stick at if you know how or where to look there on that front too.

[Ahornberg]

This is going to be an endless discussion here ... so just about one more 2 cents from me:

Up to 1990 I worked on a tracker-software on a C64. Then I switched to an Atari ST (the poor man's Mac) and started on Cubase (MIDI only) and a slowly growing hardware rack and a small mixing console. Cubase had that graphic sequencer and piano-roll MIDI editor very similar to modern DAWs.

10 years later I went into the box, on Cubase and on Reason 3. From that time on I'm collecting VSTs (but most of the old VSTs like Steinberg's Virtual Guitarist don't work well on a modern PC).

Reason 3 was before NN-XT and before Malström and even before having audio tracks. So I went on the VST path and switched to Ableton Live. I never ever got creative in Live.

Then I discovered Renoise (a tracker) and today I exclusively use Renoise for my entries for the Soundevotion Competition.

Then Bitwig appeared on the horizon and I gave it a try and I was fascinated by all the modulation possibilities (like an invisible CV system for VSTs). So for just one year, Bitwig was "my DAW".

Then I dived more and more into mixing and audio editing and I discovered that Bitwig was not ideal for that. I tried Mixbus and I loved to have a good mixing console on the screen. But editing audio didn't work straight forward for me in Mixbus.

And then my way back to Reason started. It was not a direct way at all! First I was impressen by Reason's mixer (Reason 3 only had the 14:2 mixer).

I also tried Reaper but immediatly I got lost in configuration. I didn't finish just one song in Reaper. And I didn't even finish a song using NI Maschine.

So now I'm standing here, having a nice collection of VSTs and having made a decision to dive deeper into Reason. The first step was done by finding a way to use Softube's Console 1 controller to control Reason's mixer. The next step was testing out Rewire, JackAudio and other ways to route VSTs into Reason

I haven't found "my workflow" for using Reason and my VSTs together to make music (sometimes I forgot that I just want to make music). I don't want to sell my VSTs and live on Reason-island. And I don't want to sell Reason and mess around in VST-land. Out there, there also are the ProTools-planet, the UAD-galaxy and other alien systems I never ever had contact with ...so, I haven't found "my workflow" and that's why I'm following threads like this.

[mrj1nx]

Lots of opinions already, here's mine: I tried using Logic as a master and Reason as slave, but after trying it out for a week or two I just tended to not bother anymore. TBH if you have good plugins for your daw, then Reason is not worth the hassle for the individual instruments, even though some of them are really good. But I am very intolerant towards time sinks. Using rewire is more work, keeping stuff in your head, routing things via soundflower and so forth. In the end, I left Reason pretty quickly after trying a rewire setup now I use Logic and will give a few other DAW's a go during 2016.

The thing that gets me (and not to single this one guy out, because there's been plenty of others at various times) is how some folks will go on about how they gave up on Reason and yet are still posting on what is probably the most Reason-oriented forum around. Why? Do people hang around long after they abandon Reason just in order to try to, I dunno, convince others to leave? Is it that important that they make their defection away known? What are they expecting? "Oh, gosh, this guy has given up Reason! Obviously I must also give it up as soon as possible!" It's like hanging outside a McDonalds and telling the people going inside "yeah, I ditched these guys ages ago and now I'm totally a Burger King man..." I just can't see the point.

It sure baffles me that one too, especially the regularity of it.

It's like saying "this bar sucks, the one down the road is much better but someone has got to hang around here to tell ya!".

I don't think people are being trolls here for the most part. I think it reflects the people that would love to come back to Reason and be part of the Reason community.
The arguments about features and shortcomings are part of the process of working out what the best (or least worst) option is for them to support their requirements and preferences - knowing that as each product advances in versions, some of their gripes may well have been addressed.

I check in from time to time because I've been a Reason user since 3,5 meaning I know the software inside and out and have still a strong love for it, I also have somewhere around 50 RE's so I got a bit of investment in the software. It's rooted pretty deep at least for me. Also I'm Swedish which made me feel a bit proud to be a strong supporter/advocate of Reason. Part of me hope that the Props by reading this (if they are) and not only hear positive things being repeated realise that they are wrong in their position to not support VST/AU plugins. The other part of me hopes that the users that stick will realise that the Props don't have your best interest in mind when they chose to not include VST/AU, possibly before going to deep into RE's because theres no way to get your money back.

[EnochLight]

Reason 3 was before NN-XT and before Malström and even before having audio tracks.

Both NNXT as well as Malström appeared in Reason 2.0.

I check in from time to time because I've been a Reason user since 3,5.

There was never a 3.5 version. Do you mean 2.5?

[Ahornberg]

Reason 3 was before NN-XT and before Malström and even before having audio tracks.

Both NNXT as well as Malström appeared in Reason 2.0.

I check in from time to time because I've been a Reason user since 3,5.

There was never a 3.5 version. Do you mean 2.5?

So if Resaon 2.0 had NNXT as well as Malström then I must have been on Reason 1.0
Time is running by that fast ...

[Gulale]

Man I can't forget How cubase asked me to upgrade windows 98 while my computer run Reason 1 with no fuss. Cubase was telling me to install this and that and I never bothered actually up until cubase 5 to try cubase.

[Ahornberg]

Man I can't forget How cubase asked me to upgrade windows 98 while my computer run Reason 1 with no fuss. Cubase was telling me to install this and that and I never bothered actually up until cubase 5 to try cubase.

If Steinberg had never ever inventend VST ...

[The_G]

I check in from time to time because I've been a Reason user since 3,5 meaning I know the software inside and out and have still a strong love for it, I also have somewhere around 50 RE's so I got a bit of investment in the software. It's rooted pretty deep at least for me. Also I'm Swedish which made me feel a bit proud to be a strong supporter/advocate of Reason. Part of me hope that the Props by reading this (if they are) and not only hear positive things being repeated realise that they are wrong in their position to not support VST/AU plugins. The other part of me hopes that the users that stick will realise that the Props don't have your best interest in mind when they chose to not include VST/AU, possibly before going to deep into RE's because theres no way to get your money back.

Reason is doesn't support VST/AU natively in Reason for the same reason that Apple never put Windows on Macs. Yes, you give up access to a lot of (great) software, but plug-ins that are not optimized for Reason would alter and in many ways ruin the very unique user experience--the exact thing that makes Reason distinctive. As such, I do not expect to see the exact kind of VST/AU support you get with Live or Logic.

That said, there are also other ways of doing things, which would *not* ruin that user experience. I can imagine Propellerheads creating a "external plug-in rack" that you could load VSTs/AUs into, and which is prewired (via rewire) into Reason--essentially to be used in place of an external DAW. It's possible they don't want to do this, and instead prefer to license plug-ins using the proprietary RE format, but if they do add VST/AU support, this is how I envision it happening. Obviously this would make a lot of people happy.

In the meantime, for those of us who own an external DAW, rewire really is not difficult to set up or use.

[avasopht]

Man I can't forget How cubase asked me to upgrade windows 98 while my computer run Reason 1 with no fuss. Cubase was telling me to install this and that and I never bothered actually up until cubase 5 to try cubase.

If Steinberg had never ever inventend VST ...

Then we'd be happily using another ubiquitous plugin format that does the exact same thing but under different circumstances and not controlled by Steinberg

The biggest challenge in creating a format is not making it work well but getting others to use it. If instead Johnny Noname had created the EXACT same VST specification from his bedroom in the fictional town, Ironica, East London, and that spec had been viewed by every single DSP developer in the world there would be absolutely zero chance of the format being adopted.

VST were adopted for one reason and one reason only, because Steinberg was the most popular DAW and creating a VST gets you access to the market of musicians who want plugins in Cubase. VST doesn't provide any functionality whatsoever. Everything the plugin does is the work of the DSP developer. They create VSTs though because people won't buy a plugin that isn't supported by their DAW. And there's nothing stopping a DAW from introducing a spec of their own but why would developers support that when they can already create VSTs that would be supported by every DAW including the DAW with its own custom format?

[mrj1nx]

There was never a 3.5 version. Do you mean 2.5?

My memory must be failing me. Could have sworn it was 3.5, probably mean 3.0.

To the_G, yes the VST/AU "rack unit" (much like the external instrument thingie) is probably the way they could do it to make it fit the best within Reason, that could in theory allow for communication via CV and ins/outs as well so I imagine it could work pretty well.

[EnochLight]

I see people who desire official VST support in Reason frequently referencing how long it took for Propellerhead to do MIDI-out and audio recording, as if this equates to the likelihood of VST support happening at some time in the future. Perhaps it might be helpful to point out Propellerhead's stance on the aforementioned features that have appeared, from back in the day when Reason was in its early stages.

Derek Johnson & Debbie Poyser wrote a technical guide (or two) for Reason many years ago (this would have been the 1.0/2.0 days), and reviewed Reason for SOS back for version 2.0. They put it pretty succinctly:

So far we've not mentioned three features that many Reason users are still asking for: audio recording, VST plug-in support, and MIDI output.
Propellerhead have their reasons (sorry!) for not providing these most-wanted facilities. Regarding audio recording, you might sum up their stance as not wanting to do the job by halves and, if they do it at all, wanting to formulate an approach to audio recording that is as unique as the rest of Reason. As Propellerhead co-founder Ernst Nathorst-Böos puts it, "I don't want to just do a 'me too' thing for adding hard disk tracks to Reason. We'd just be an inferior Cubase, and why would we want to be that?" However, they haven't totally ruled out at some time producing an audio application to run alongside Reason.

As for VST plug-in support, Propellerhead say they don't want Reason to become a product that is a VST host, "and particularly for VST plug-ins that might not be as efficient as Reason." They instead favour Rewire for accessing VST plug-ins. The plan is to upgrade Reason's effects at some time, and if they do we will personally have no problem with lack of VST support -- it's not something we're desperate for, though some users are.

Lastly, there's MIDI Out, which Propellerhead (after all, still a small company whose 16-strong staff is in stark contrast to their international status) say is not as easy to implement as it might seem, since things like SysEx handling, a MIDI mixer, and various other complications would need to be accommodated. The company say they also still see Reason as "an accessory product to the major sequencing programs", and that they value the support of the other major music software houses.

These features seem like a big deal, in that they're requested so often, but the fact is that we Reason users are still Reason users without them, and we've never actually seen anyone say they won't buy the program, or will stop using it, if they don't get them. To be fair, Propellerhead have never even hinted that they're on the agenda for Reason, Rewire works, and Reason offers a fantastic environment for making music just as it stands. Still, we can hope!

Now, one could argue that becoming an "inferior Cubase" was exactly what Record was, and fusing Record into Reason 6 only solidified that notion - though it did give us the long desired audio recording feature. But they did do it on their own terms, and offer features that were arguably catered towards Reason and/or unique to Propellerhead (comp rows, at least). And then we landed MIDI-out with version 7, again done on Prop's own terms.

VST was addressed in 6.5 with Rack Extensions, on Props own terms, no matter how much people think otherwise. But, I'm beginning to sound like a broken record at this point...

One thing is certain: since Reason 6.0/6.5, it has officially become a DAW instead of a suite of plugins/virtual synths/effects that was meant to be ReWired to another DAW (should you need that). Whether you feel it's an "inferior Cubase" (Props own words, mind you) or not is entirely up to the user. From many perspectives, one could easily say it is inferior. From many other perspectives, one could say that it is superior. YMMV..

(original 2.0 review where that quote was taken from: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep02/a ... reason.asp )

[selig]

I see people who desire official VST support in Reason frequently referencing how long it took for Propellerhead to do MIDI-out and audio recording, as if this equates to the likelihood of VST support happening at some time in the future. Perhaps it might be helpful to point out Propellerhead's stance on the aforementioned features that have appeared, from back in the day when Reason was in its early stages.

Derek Johnson & Debbie Poyser wrote a technical guide (or two) for Reason many years ago (this would have been the 1.0/2.0 days), and reviewed Reason for SOS back for version 2.0. They put it pretty succinctly:

So far we've not mentioned three features that many Reason users are still asking for: audio recording, VST plug-in support, and MIDI output.
Propellerhead have their reasons (sorry!) for not providing these most-wanted facilities. Regarding audio recording, you might sum up their stance as not wanting to do the job by halves and, if they do it at all, wanting to formulate an approach to audio recording that is as unique as the rest of Reason. As Propellerhead co-founder Ernst Nathorst-Böos puts it, "I don't want to just do a 'me too' thing for adding hard disk tracks to Reason. We'd just be an inferior Cubase, and why would we want to be that?" However, they haven't totally ruled out at some time producing an audio application to run alongside Reason.

As for VST plug-in support, Propellerhead say they don't want Reason to become a product that is a VST host, "and particularly for VST plug-ins that might not be as efficient as Reason." They instead favour Rewire for accessing VST plug-ins. The plan is to upgrade Reason's effects at some time, and if they do we will personally have no problem with lack of VST support -- it's not something we're desperate for, though some users are.

Lastly, there's MIDI Out, which Propellerhead (after all, still a small company whose 16-strong staff is in stark contrast to their international status) say is not as easy to implement as it might seem, since things like SysEx handling, a MIDI mixer, and various other complications would need to be accommodated. The company say they also still see Reason as "an accessory product to the major sequencing programs", and that they value the support of the other major music software houses.

These features seem like a big deal, in that they're requested so often, but the fact is that we Reason users are still Reason users without them, and we've never actually seen anyone say they won't buy the program, or will stop using it, if they don't get them. To be fair, Propellerhead have never even hinted that they're on the agenda for Reason, Rewire works, and Reason offers a fantastic environment for making music just as it stands. Still, we can hope!

Now, one could argue that becoming an "inferior Cubase" was exactly what Record was, and fusing Record into Reason 6 only solidified that notion - though it did give us the long desired audio recording feature. But they did do it on their own terms, and offer features that were arguably catered towards Reason and/or unique to Propellerhead (comp rows, at least). And then we landed MIDI-out with version 7, again done on Prop's own terms.

VST was addressed in 6.5 with Rack Extensions, on Props own terms, no matter how much people think otherwise. But, I'm beginning to sound like a broken record at this point...

One thing is certain: since Reason 6.0/6.5, it has officially become a DAW instead of a suite of plugins/virtual synths/effects that was meant to be ReWired to another DAW (should you need that). Whether you feel it's an "inferior Cubase" (Props own words, mind you) or not is entirely up to the user. From many perspectives, one could easily say it is inferior. From many other perspectives, one could say that it is superior. YMMV..

(original 2.0 review where that quote was taken from: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep02/a ... reason.asp )

Good points from the Props - to sum up the Props comments: 1, we won't do audio until we can do it right, 2, MIDI is harder to add then you would think, and 3, we don't want Reason to become a VST host. The first two were cases where they never said "never" (despite what others have claimed), but the last case is pretty cut and dried as I'm reading it: Reason will not be a VST host! Especially considering the addition of REs...

[EnochLight]

Good points from the Props - to sum up the Props comments: 1, we won't do audio until we can do it right, 2, MIDI is harder to add then you would think, and 3, we don't want Reason to become a VST host. The first two were cases where they never said "never" (despite what others have claimed), but the last case is pretty cut and dried as I'm reading it: Reason will not be a VST host! Especially considering the addition of REs...

Exactly. And nicely summed up!

[raymondh]

Propellerhead of course have the right to change their mind and evolve the product strategy to what is going to win them more business and market share. They have already done this in making Reason a full DAW with audio and MIDI, and rather than flip-flopping on their early position, I see it is a great thing that they're responding to what their customers and market want, rather than operating in an academic bubble. In the early days, Propellerhead were the fresh new entrant "under-dog" with a unique and cool approach - and everyone loves to support the underdog.

But here's the rub. If you look at the technology adoption curve, Reason would have initially appealed to the early adopters. Contrast that with say Pro-tools which would appeal more to the late majority and laggards. Every day I'm sure Props anguish over how they reach the hearts and minds of the lucrative early majority, but keep the product fresh, unique and innovative enough for it not to slide down the tail of the curve and be outdone by the next fresh innovator.

I would love to see VST support in Reason. I want use Reason's sequencer, not some other host. I expect Props decision to support has very little to do with technology issues and much more around product strategy and whether I like their decision or not, I respect it.

[selig]

I don't know if we're talking about the same thing here, but I didn't see a "flip flop" - they said they would only add audio if they could do it "right" - then they added audio (in a round-about sort of way, via "Record" then "Reason"). How is this a "flip-flop"?

[raymondh]

I don't know if we're talking about the same thing here, but I didn't see a "flip flop" - they said they would only add audio if they could do it "right" - then they added audio (in a round-about sort of way, via "Record" then "Reason"). How is this a "flip-flop"?

There has been a lot of discussion over the years on how, and if, Propellerhead would support audio and midi-out. Yes there are the articles that keep the door open and present their position as technology and design issues. But I recall reading other articles/videos that took a much stronger black-and-white position that it was out of scope for their products and Reason was all about being a synth rack (with ReWire), not a sequencer application. I wish I could find those articles because I remember they were quite dismissive of the idea we would want to use external synthesizers with Reason and took the position we should look elsewhere (so I did for a few years).

I think these messages were threads in the old PUF when Props employees weighted in. It could well have been that these black and white positions were simply confused market messaging, or company employees not representing Ernst's "maybe one day" messaging.

[selig]

Maybe you're right, but to date no one who's claimed the Props said "never" has been able to produce any evidence - not picking on you specifically, just noting that even back in the PUF days this "myth" was often circulated yet never confirmed. Maybe they DID say it somewhere, but so far there's no "hard evidence" that I've ever seen. I have also wondered if folks simply mis-read the original quotes, and that's what got passed around? Not that it really matters all that much to me, it's just something I've noticed…

[avasopht]

I don't know if we're talking about the same thing here, but I didn't see a "flip flop" - they said they would only add audio if they could do it "right" - then they added audio (in a round-about sort of way, via "Record" then "Reason"). How is this a "flip-flop"?

There has been a lot of discussion over the years on how, and if, Propellerhead would support audio and midi-out. Yes there are the articles that keep the door open and present their position as technology and design issues. But I recall reading other articles/videos that took a much stronger black-and-white position that it was out of scope for their products and Reason was all about being a synth rack (with ReWire), not a sequencer application. I wish I could find those articles because I remember they were quite dismissive of the idea we would want to use external synthesizers with Reason and took the position we should look elsewhere (so I did for a few years).

I think these messages were threads in the old PUF when Props employees weighted in. It could well have been that these black and white positions were simply confused market messaging, or company employees not representing Ernst's "maybe one day" messaging.

Well who knows anything can happen. Nokia was a fishing company, Nintendo a card company, Sega built pinball machines and Proctor and Gamble made candles and soap. That being said, there is no chance Ernst will ever commission VSTs.

Sure, "anything" could happen, but I'd rather not overstate that "possibility" regarding VSTs anytime in the near future. Besides they've already made a massive commitment to developing the format they've always wanted. When it comes to cost / benefits and thinking 10 years ahead where half of the VSTs today may not work and we don't know what will be the dominant technology, I think Propellerhead have thought things through.

[Iapetus 9]

Long story short, I recently had to reboot Windows 7 fresh after a fight with a new graphics processor. What a chore. I had forgotten how Win7 likes to constantly freeze until updated properly. So, after finally getting things running again, and after another fight with my M-Audio drivers, I got Reason installed. This is the first time I've had to reinstall RE's, and I must say this with enthusiasm- What a fucking breeze. A couple of minutes tops. I'm impressed. I can't say that about any VST I own. I'm still fighting Cubase and iLok and updates, Jbridge doesn't like me, and it's been a week so far getting everything up to work with. I think you get my point.

I won't argue the VST -vs- RE stupidity. They both have pros and cons. I've been a Reason user since 2.5, and while that isn't as long as some, it's enough to know that long time users have always had another DAW for VST (and recording LOL) to get things done and create music. I've used ReWire in the past, but it's just simpler to fire up the other DAW and continue to create. Just a simple mouse click really, and it's not like you're spooling a tape machine and logging all your changes on a ream of paper and taping notes to the mixer...saving as you go. We live in a world where none of that is needed anymore, and I don't see why it's so hard to just fire up another DAW for the precious VST's. Reason is fine without em.

[joeyluck]

I don't think Propellerhead/Ernst had ever said the following about audio or MIDI Out:

http://speakhertz.com/6809/interview-pr ... horst-boos

• You also made the following statement 10 years ago when asked about VSTs, and Reason’s lack of support for party plugins:
  “We take pride in making reliable products, and in making them efficient, so that the user can do a lot on just one computer… What we’d rather do is keep making instruments that can satisfy our users”.
  And here we are a decade later with Rack Extensions at our disposal, which is quite a crafty solution. At what point between then and now did that resistance start to wane, with regards to providing users with access to 3 and Marcus on this issue, or was it a unanimous feeling?
  
  There never was resistance. We dreamt up Rack Extensions (RE) a long time ago, but it’s one of the biggest project we have ever done, if not the biggest. We just had to do all this work to make it possible. VST technology is almost 20 years old now and a lot of things have happened in computing since 1996. Basically, if you ask me, VST sucks from a technological standpoint, and I’m not sure how it will survive in the fast changing computing landscape that we have now. Rack Extensions are a completely different beast and geared for the future.

[mcatalao]

Some of the lengths people go to doing the loopback workaround is astonishing, yet 10 minutes working out the in's and out's of Rewire would soon kill off the idea that looping back is any kind of solution in most circumstances.

Not astonishing. This way of working is used even in other daws, where hosting a plugin inside of a daw is still buggy as hell. Just look at Play, which takes a huge time to load up samples, sometimes it crashes and it still has a "panic" function inside. And if you talk with movie composers and such, most of them use different pc's for sequencing and hosting. Using Reason's midi out, you can do it without any trouble inside your pc or with a second pc for hosting.

If you use the plugin standalone, sometimes it is more accurate, has lower internal latency and has less issues than the VST version in the host.

You guys talk about sandboxing, you can't have better sand boxing (or better said, in this case separation) than using a midi out to another software, or hardware. It's a cable. It works. It doesn't kill reason or brakes the project. It makes boom, only on it's side (and no, it doesn't break your OS).

Also... There will always be multiple plugin formats, and we should look at Rack Extensions as another plugin format. And we as users, should start poking the developers of instruments and effects we like, to port them to Re's. I'd say 90% of the effects from a purely audio perspective are doable in Reason at the moment, and a great part of virtual instruments too, as we've seen from Rob Papen and others. And do the same for Sample Lybraries. Imagine a Play for Reason, with East West's orchestra, Ra or Voices of Passion? Or any other? I myself would prefer to work with East West patches as RE's inside of reason than rewire or midi out and loop it and so on. I might be a lucky one, that only spent a couple thousands of eur on East West and Virtual Guitarrist and some other stuff, and nowadays my bigger investments are being made in Rack Extensions.

[mcatalao]

PS.: And it takes me less than 5 minutes to set up the loopback workaround. If rewire takes 10, it's not worth it... lol

[QVprod]

I would probably side with Rewire as well. My only issue with Rewire is that it currently only works one way and Reason cannot be the Rewire Master. This one way routing prevents you from processing audio in Reason and also prevents midi use in Reason. I'm still hoping that one day Props will understand how important VST's are to some of us out here.

Working with Rewire is of course the best solution as it is engineered this way. But this method is if you want or welcome the concept of tracking on two different softwares. I'm not sure how many there are like myslef but I would rather do all my sequencer work in Reason. So in Rewire your final result will have to come from your other host as it is one directional right?

Forgot about this thread, so sorry for the late response. Anyway, I see a few people's problem with Using Rewire is they want to keep all the midi in Reason's sequencer.

Well.... You can using the EMI. Made this video a few years ago, though I feel most people overlook it. Aside from audio input (and being able to use use Precount in Reason), it's pretty close to being Rewire master.

[Creativemind]

It would be great if in Reason 9 (when it arrives) there was some way of playing stand alone VST's from your desktop into Reason as midi though