tools or toys?

[zoidkirb]

Wether you class something as a tool or a toy, I'm not bothered.
But I'd like to see way fewer new devices full stop, and instead just fix what's already there.
That means QOL fixes for DAW features and built in devices, and paid updates for their RE's.

I'm at a point where I've got more RE'S than I have time to use already. Trying out R+ has intensified that feeling. It's option paralysis, and the feeling never mastering the available tools that has led me to not even bother with any of the included R+ goodies.
I'm simply using my $3 subscription for early access to HD.
The amount of $70 Players in particular is getting ridiculous. There's loads of overlap in them.
It'd be so much better to just have less Players but more fully featured, and charge a small upgrade fee as major versions are released.

Very happy RS have opted to go with Combi 2.

[guitfnky]

I agree, the combi is a tool, yes, like most other utility devices. what you put into the combi are toys (mostly).

If I put Omnisphere inside a Combi, does that make Omnisphere a toy?

The reasoning seems a little flawed here.

Omnisphere is a fun instrument to play with, correct? yes, it’s a toy. just the same as every other instrument, and most effects.

doesn’t minimize their usefulness—we’re musicians—we need toys. but that’s not the question.

[guitfnky]

Wether you class something as a tool or a toy, I'm not bothered.
But I'd like to see way fewer new devices full stop, and instead just fix what's already there.
That means QOL fixes for DAW features and built in devices, and paid updates for their RE's.

I'm at a point where I've got more RE'S than I have time to use already. Trying out R+ has intensified that feeling. It's option paralysis, and the feeling never mastering the available tools that has led me to not even bother with any of the included R+ goodies.
I'm simply using my $3 subscription for early access to HD.
The amount of $70 Players in particular is getting ridiculous. There's loads of overlap in them.
It'd be so much better to just have less Players but more fully featured, and charge a small upgrade fee as major versions are released.

Very happy RS have opted to go with Combi 2.

it’s less about classification and more about purpose, but I’m with you. to your point, it seems like there’s got to be a point of diminishing returns, where continuing to add more cool things to play around with starts to get overwhelming, and could become more frustrating than useful.

surely Reason is nearing that point, if not already there. it’s confusing that Mattias keeps saying things which suggest they want to keep moving in the direction of more instruments, players, and effects.

[BRIGGS]

Both☺

[avasopht]

Omnisphere is a fun instrument to play with, correct? yes, it’s a toy. just the same as every other instrument, and most effects.

doesn’t minimize their usefulness—we’re musicians—we need toys. but that’s not the question.

Ah, I get you now.

Maybe. I've gotten so used to working in Reason that I barely use advanced operational tools in other DAWs now.

I'd much prefer scriptable tools though.

[selig]

it’s less about classification and more about purpose, but I’m with you. to your point, it seems like there’s got to be a point of diminishing returns, where continuing to add more cool things to play around with starts to get overwhelming, and could become more frustrating than useful.

surely Reason is nearing that point, if not already there. it’s confusing that Mattias keeps saying things which suggest they want to keep moving in the direction of more instruments, players, and effects.

I've recently wondered where all these new instruments leads, especially as there can only be so many instruments needed - at some point they will likely have to start going back through the older ideas to produce new devices, like a new ReDrum (sound module and sequencer in one) etc.
But to what end, as even if you JUST use Reason instruments there's already more than most folks would ever need.
I would rather see updates so we don't get hundreds of instruments to sort through, which could be backwards compatible. A newer NNXT can be programmed to load older files, doesn't even have to look or feel anything like the original (and the original can still stay, just maybe give us an easier way to hide it).

Feels like we've nearly reached the saturation point in some ways, at least in covering the basics of the instrument world. Now if they would only do the same for the mixer and the sequencer we could have a killer music making machine!

[Chizmata]

to me, everything is a tool. some more fancy looking than others, but i really cant agree with that distinction.

[lowtom]

I've recently wondered where all these new instruments leads, especially as there can only be so many instruments needed - at some point they will likely have to start going back through the older ideas to produce new devices, like a new ReDrum (sound module and sequencer in one) etc.
But to what end, as even if you JUST use Reason instruments there's already more than most folks would ever need.
I would rather see updates so we don't get hundreds of instruments to sort through, which could be backwards compatible. A newer NNXT can be programmed to load older files, doesn't even have to look or feel anything like the original (and the original can still stay, just maybe give us an easier way to hide it).

Feels like we've nearly reached the saturation point in some ways, at least in covering the basics of the instrument world. Now if they would only do the same for the mixer and the sequencer we could have a killer music making machine!

I agree. There is so much you can do to push existing devices further. I'm not sure how big is RS feature request list in regards to old devices but I do not see any refreshing updates coming in recent years to any of them.
I was happy when ReDrum got additional remote possibilities for step sequencer or RV7000 was upgraded to use IR. Malstrom could easily be merged with Europa as both are wavetable synths in nature. Same goes with Subtractor, Thor and Monotone. For drum synth/sampler/sequencer we should have one perfect device (instead of 3) that covers it all - 16 channels ReDrum with all Kong modules and Umpf possibilities.

Too many devices feels like choice overload and leads to option parlysis. RS is trying to cover all bases via separate devices instead of adding more functionalities to exisitng ones.

[DaveyG]

I've recently wondered where all these new instruments leads, especially as there can only be so many instruments needed - at some point they will likely have to start going back through the older ideas to produce new devices, like a new ReDrum (sound module and sequencer in one) etc.
But to what end, as even if you JUST use Reason instruments there's already more than most folks would ever need.
I would rather see updates so we don't get hundreds of instruments to sort through, which could be backwards compatible. A newer NNXT can be programmed to load older files, doesn't even have to look or feel anything like the original (and the original can still stay, just maybe give us an easier way to hide it).

Feels like we've nearly reached the saturation point in some ways, at least in covering the basics of the instrument world. Now if they would only do the same for the mixer and the sequencer we could have a killer music making machine!

I agree. There is so much you can do to push existing devices further. I'm not sure how big is RS feature request list in regards to old devices but I do not see any refreshing updates coming in recent years to any of them.
I was happy when ReDrum got additional remote possibilities for step sequencer or RV7000 was upgraded to use IR. Malstrom could easily be merged with Europa as both are wavetable synths in nature. Same goes with Subtractor, Thor and Monotone. For drum synth/sampler/sequencer we should have one perfect device (instead of 3) that covers it all - 16 channels ReDrum with all Kong modules and Umpf possibilities.

Too many devices feels like choice overload and leads to option parlysis. RS is trying to cover all bases via separate devices instead of adding more functionalities to exisitng ones.

I agree too but the problem is marketing or, to be more precise, the difficulties of marketing a new release where the new stuff is all just updates of existing stuff. You could update every single stock device in Reason and it would be harder to market than a single new device, even if that new device is similar to, or overlaps with, an existing one. So we'll continue to get new devices, even after they run out of ideas for new devices!

[lowtom]

I agree too but the problem is marketing or, to be more precise, the difficulties of marketing a new release where the new stuff is all just updates of existing stuff. You could update every single stock device in Reason and it would be harder to market than a single new device, even if that new device is similar to, or overlaps with, an existing one. So we'll continue to get new devices, even after they run out of ideas for new devices!

It does not feel like a big problem for other companies. Look at Ableton or Bitwig. They improve their existing devices adding more functionality where possible, keeping it backwards compatible and it all still feels fresh.
Currently I'm waiting for Combinator 2 to drop and see what RS was cooking in their labs.

[DaveyG]

I agree too but the problem is marketing or, to be more precise, the difficulties of marketing a new release where the new stuff is all just updates of existing stuff. You could update every single stock device in Reason and it would be harder to market than a single new device, even if that new device is similar to, or overlaps with, an existing one. So we'll continue to get new devices, even after they run out of ideas for new devices!

It does not feel like a big problem for other companies. Look at Ableton or Bitwig. They improve their existing devices adding more functionality where possible, keeping it backwards compatible and it all still feels fresh.

Actually, I think those two companies do have a problem with their latest releases. Neither Bitwig 4 nor Live 11 have set the world alight, precisely because they have not managed to introduce a BIG new thing. Some of the reviews have been struggling to find much to talk about and there is not much of a buzz about either of them. Normally people would be creaming themselves over a new release of Live. This time it's all a bit muted. That's not to say that they are bad products, just that they have not created much excitement.

[guitfnky]

It does not feel like a big problem for other companies. Look at Ableton or Bitwig. They improve their existing devices adding more functionality where possible, keeping it backwards compatible and it all still feels fresh.

Actually, I think those two companies do have a problem with their latest releases. Neither Bitwig 4 nor Live 11 have set the world alight, precisely because they have not managed to introduce a BIG new thing. Some of the reviews have been struggling to find much to talk about and there is not much of a buzz about either of them. Normally people would be creaming themselves over a new release of Live. This time it's all a bit muted. That's not to say that they are bad products, just that they have not created much excitement.

that seems like maybe a slight oversimplification—as a new user of Live, I bought into it specifically because of new features (linked track editing, in-sequence probabilities, etc.). for someone doing EDM or the like, that might not be something that factors, but for people who want a quick, easy workflow for equal parts audio and MIDI recording, with a depth of features when you need them, that’s the kind of stuff that makes the difference between buying into a new DAW vs. crossing your fingers and hoping your current one will eventually get up to snuff. in my case, Ableton’s gain, and RS’ loss, so far.

[loopeydoug]

The amount of $70 Players in particular is getting ridiculous. There's loads of overlap in them.
It'd be so much better to just have less Players but more fully featured, and charge a small upgrade fee as major versions are released.

Very happy RS have opted to go with Combi 2.

Funny, I had roughly the same thought last night. I sat down with Friktion for the first time since I bought it a few months ago. After playing around with it for an hour it occurred to me that it's a little upsetting how single-purposed it is. In the old days something like that would've been fleshed out to be a full-fledged flagship acoustic modeling instrument, capable of string, wind, membrane, and idiophone modeling. But now we get a single purpose string modeler that feels a bit underdeveloped even in its stated purpose. So instead of having this one monster instrument with potential legend status, you have a single purpose device with the probability of making a separate device for each for each area of physical modeling. And you can see how making these "tools that make it easier to sound like you" go hand in hand with profit goals. They could either take their time and make one tool that does it all and might take some effort to master with a price tag of $149 or they could peel off a handful of single-purpose devices for $99 a piece and throw a little "it just works, so you don't have to" jargon on the top. Bob's your aunty.

[SebAudio]

Actually, I think those two companies do have a problem with their latest releases. Neither Bitwig 4 nor Live 11 have set the world alight, precisely because they have not managed to introduce a BIG new thing. Some of the reviews have been struggling to find much to talk about and there is not much of a buzz about either of them. Normally people would be creaming themselves over a new release of Live. This time it's all a bit muted. That's not to say that they are bad products, just that they have not created much excitement.

that seems like maybe a slight oversimplification—as a new user of Live, I bought into it specifically because of new features (linked track editing, in-sequence probabilities, etc.). for someone doing EDM or the like, that might not be something that factors, but for people who want a quick, easy workflow for equal parts audio and MIDI recording, with a depth of features when you need them, that’s the kind of stuff that makes the difference between buying into a new DAW vs. crossing your fingers and hoping your current one will eventually get up to snuff. in my case, Ableton’s gain, and RS’ loss, so far.

As you say, you’ re a new Live user so those new v11 features are among all the other features of Live. It’s not the same « feeling » when you’re already a user of a software.
Music production software (« ITB ») is mature since 10 years now so it’s very difficult to add something that allow you to do something you couldn’t do with the previous version. Only « quality of life » features (such as updating an old device) are of true value for « veteran » users but it’ll not buzz. So companies hope to have the buzz by providing « new instruments / FX », but as this thread shows, it doesn’t always work. What to come with next relating to instruments ? Very hard to imagine. MPE and MIDI 2 won’t be enough. A lot of people are going to (generally much simpler) hardware / analog instruments and effects because you can only expect over complexity or « meh, what’s new ? » with simple software instruments / FX.

[Social Exodus]

but where *should* they be spending their time?

From our standpoint as users it is one thing, but the company is in this to make money after all. They will do whatever it takes to do that, and so will work on whatever marketing research dictates is the best bet. Not that Reason Studios disregard forum input like this, but they likely pay a LOT more attention to that department IMHO.

[lowtom]

Actually, I think those two companies do have a problem with their latest releases. Neither Bitwig 4 nor Live 11 have set the world alight, precisely because they have not managed to introduce a BIG new thing. Some of the reviews have been struggling to find much to talk about and there is not much of a buzz about either of them. Normally people would be creaming themselves over a new release of Live. This time it's all a bit muted. That's not to say that they are bad products, just that they have not created much excitement.

From my observations it looks like they do not have to create much buzz. They are professional and popular enough. Ableton and Bitwig also direct their products to specific audience. They have very strong live performance and DIY ethos build in - Ableton with Max for Live, where Max is also strong in academic community and Bitwig with Grid targeting modular heads. Both companies products feel very technical - much more a tool than a toy - because of this whole advanced layer baked into their products. This also resonate with many electronic musicians.


It is actually funny and sad at the same time if you think how DIY and modular oriented Reason is from the start. Propellerhead Software were one of the first companies to introduce real time synthesis, they were first to make Combinator which Ableton copied with their Instrument Rack solution. For live performance folks, Reason had a slogan "Play Your Reason System" and it did end up being used on stage by many musicians. Even in the hardware MIDI control field, Remote was (and I still think it is) groundbreaking. Somehow it is not RS that is leading the whole DAW market.


I believe as we all grow, there is no need for new shiny toy. We need robust tool we can rely on, that gets the job done and does not get in the way. Fun is in making music itself, but the tool does not have to be fun.
That's why I voted for tools.

[Kalm]

They just need to focus on integration. There’s plenty of tools and toys. Everything is just being upgraded atm tools and toys so it’s not that they’re lacking. I want hardware controllers to control Reason, not 3rd party mapping. Better structural layout of commands and use of space. Setting options to customize the DAW as much as S1. External device storage usability for REs on Mac

[avasopht]

They just need to focus on integration. There’s plenty of tools and toys. Everything is just being upgraded atm tools and toys so it’s not that they’re lacking. I want hardware controllers to control Reason, not 3rd party mapping. Better structural layout of commands and use of space. Setting options to customize the DAW as much as S1. External device storage usability for REs on Mac

I'm with you on integration.

The Presonus Atom is pure midi, allowing any DAW to integrate with it as much as Studio One.

I'm disappointed with how poorly integration is handled by DAWs in general. More than enough controllers adhere to the same conventions (4/8/18 knobs/buttons/sliders, etc).

The next generation of software and controllers needs to get this standardised so that you could operate DAWs entirely with your controllers if you wanted.

We're nearly there, but I still need to use my mouse to turn knobs and press buttons in my VSTs when using Maschine or Push.

Come on DAW makers. Let's keep it awesome

[lowtom]

They just need to focus on integration. There’s plenty of tools and toys. Everything is just being upgraded atm tools and toys so it’s not that they’re lacking. I want hardware controllers to control Reason, not 3rd party mapping. Better structural layout of commands and use of space. Setting options to customize the DAW as much as S1. External device storage usability for REs on Mac

I'm with you on integration.

The Presonus Atom is pure midi, allowing any DAW to integrate with it as much as Studio One.

I'm disappointed with how poorly integration is handled by DAWs in general. More than enough controllers adhere to the same conventions (4/8/18 knobs/buttons/sliders, etc).

The next generation of software and controllers needs to get this standardised so that you could operate DAWs entirely with your controllers if you wanted.

We're nearly there, but I still need to use my mouse to turn knobs and press buttons in my VSTs when using Maschine or Push.

Come on DAW makers. Let's keep it awesome

I would also like to have more HW control over DAW. We are allready there in terms of audio signal synthesis and processing. Problem now is in how to control it all in logical and intuitive manner.

[dioxide]

Tools. I already have enough creative toys to last me a lifetime. Indeed I'm starting to wonder how the VST world will sustain itself in the next 10 years as the emulations are almost 100% accurate and we have enough of all kinds of new effects and instruments.

I agree with the people here asking for better hardware integration in Reason. Propellerhead were first on this with Remote but as Reason lost popularity due to lack of audio input, audio tracks and MIDI out, manufacturers lost interest. IMO Reason Studios should employ people to create good quality maps for third party MIDI controllers. The manufacturers aren't going to do it, but it is something that Reason users need. A Reason Studios controller seems appealing at first, but it might miss the mark – designing hardware is an expensive and risky business to be in. Better to let others take the risk on the hardware design and manufacturing and spend the money employing people to create good quality, useable maps.

[jam-s]

RS would most likely only provide basic maps for only the built-in devices (and perhaps their own REs).
So instead of creating maps I think a proper universal graphical map creation tool would be the better option as with such a tool we would be able to customise the maps to our own liking (and also map 3rd party REs).
Combine this with a map upload/sharing functionality and Reason would be one big step ahead.

[loopeydoug]

RS would most likely only provide basic maps for only the built-in devices (and perhaps their own REs).
So instead of creating maps I think a proper universal graphical map creation tool would be the better option as with such a tool we would be able to customise the maps to our own liking (and also map 3rd party REs).
Combine this with a map upload/sharing functionality and Reason would be one big step ahead.

I want this SO much! I have absolute respect for PoohBear's(and others') efforts in the mapping arena, but I feel mapping in its current state is archaic and clunky. As is, one glaring omission is the ability to have per-patch mappings. Couple this with another goundbreaking Reason contribution, the Combinator, and you can see what I'm driving at. I dream of being able to create signature builds(instruments, fx chains, player chains, utility chains, or any combination thereof) that aren't limited by control type and availability(fingers crossed for Combinator 2!); all while being able to easily create and retain a custom control map for my one-of-a-kind creation that will be there waiting for me the next time I pull it out.

[EdGrip]

The contempt implicit in this thread for anyone who makes music with "toys". Grim.

[guitfnky]

The contempt implicit in this thread for anyone who makes music with "toys". Grim.

contempt? no. and absurd on its face.

musicians rely on toys. we PLAY music. we need them. there’s no judgment involved for either toys or tools—just a question of whether we’re reaching a point where continuing to add new toys to a piece of software already flush with them stops being valuable, when there are huge gaps with the tools.

[jlgrimes]

Reason started out as a bunch of cool toys to make music with—instrument and effects devices that allowed us to create and manipulate sounds in fun and interesting ways. a playground.

when they introduced recording, there was a good stretch of almost 10 years where they largely focused on tools instead (MIDI out, VST support, sequencer improvements, etc.). not always as shiny as the toys, but important, nonetheless.

right now, it seems like RS are mostly focused on toys again (which is totally fine, even if it’s frustrating to people like me). the 4k improvements are definitely “tools”, but also born of necessity—keeping up with modern computer configurations. the new sampler, new combinator, sound packs, etc. are all toys, and I think that’s how RS really wants to spend their time.

but where *should* they be spending their time? there are already so many tools available that to continue adding more at the pace they’ve been going these last couple of years could result in a different kind of software bloat—so many toys to play with and less actual music getting finished.

I voted something else, but what I really mean is Reason should focus on both. Some devices work better as playful toys, but Musicians, Engineers also need specialized serious tools. If RS spent too much time making everything toys, nobody would take it seriously.

To be honest I never viewed Reason as a toy. It is an environment that fairly emulated a home pre-production studio. During the early 2000s, there was alot of hardware users making the transition to Computer based environments, and Reason's GUI was instantly understandable, even the sequencer being basic (but easy to use and comparable to a standalone hardware sequencer) and not too obtuse was a good decision.

Times have changed though, as Computer music environments have gotten more sophisticated. At the same time there are still plenty of companies that focus on old analog hardware (UAD, Arturia), others have more or less embraced the digital workflow (Izotope, Fabfilter, NI to some point). Finding that right balance is key, I wouldn't focus too far on either side. If you go to far to just tool concept, it can make a more boring environment, or workflow that goes over many's heads, but if it is too much of a toy, people won't take it seriously and it could be for valid reasons especially if efficiency is regularly getting sacrificed.