Reason updates (11.3.7 / 11.3.8) and Reason+

[EdwardKiy]

Now I do agree the DAW features are in need of some serious upgrading, I bought Studio One for that very reason. However,

Just felt like colouring your comment. Nobody cares what Reason was before the dinosaurs and now nobody cares what Reason Studios think it should be. They messed up too many times. As a company, their only option left is to shut up and do what they are told by the users before they can win some trust back. There's no "please" or "will you" this time - they can do it or gtfo the game. 80% negative reviews and telling us how they're exploding with new users. What a joke. Have some integrity.

[Philup]

Also, the "F8" Tool Window. Why does it not look and behave like everything else in the UI? The answer is "because it's always been like that". It should dock and slide out like the other Windows. But it's "always been like it is" so seemingly can never change. It's a mindset that I cannot fathom.

And that seems to be the RS approach to the whole product. Revisiting a feature or a function to improve it or unify it seems to be an alien concept in RS Towers. It could be better than it is.

How about that regroove mixer that still matches the textures and width from the original 90's transport. bleh!

[sprinkles__]

The one that springs to mind is recording in a loop. Do it with audio and it records multiple takes and you can choose the best one, or even comp the best bits from each take. Do it with MIDI and it overdubs the previous performance so by the time you have done three or four times around the loop you have a right mish mash of "nearly the same" midi events.

This is one of the things about the sequencer that drives me absolutely mad. To be fair, only two DAWs (that i know of) get this behaviour right: Live and Studio One. Oh, and probably Bitwig as well actually but i can't remember, haven't opened it in years.

[QVprod]

Now I do agree the DAW features are in need of some serious upgrading, I bought Studio One for that very reason. However,

Just felt like colouring your comment. Nobody cares what Reason was before the dinosaurs and now nobody cares what Reason Studios think it should be. They messed up too many times. As a company, their only option left is to shut up and do what they are told by the users before they can win some trust back. There's no "please" or "will you" this time - they can do it or gtfo the game. 80% negative reviews and telling us how they're exploding with new users. What a joke. Have some integrity.

Returning the favor a little - just in bold. I see this very differently. I buy a product for what it currently does. Not for what I hope it does in the future. if It doesn't do everything I need it to do, I buy something to compliment it that does what it lacks. Far less frustrating. If people really didn't care about what Reason was before, they wouldn't be saying they felt RS was abandoning the DAW. That's quite literally a reflection of how they feel about the past.

[QVprod]

I think what's happened though is people have bought into Reason unaware of that. Many older users never used anything else because being 100% Reason came with some silly sense of pride back in the day and newer users don't know how Reason was before Record. Reason + though, is really just more of the same of what they've been doing. I do hope they upgrade the DAW as well though, and I'm sure they will.

I do have a bit of silly pride whenever other electronic musicians ask me what software I write on, and they're shocked at the answer (or in some cases unfamiliar with it), which happens often, but for me personally, Reason was always supposed to be a standalone program, even if not a conventional DAW. Its way of working always jived with me, whereas others didn't. It's an alternative to the traditional ways of working in DAW, as are trackers.

By silly pride, There was a culture of almost shaming anyone asking for VST support. "You don't need, and "Reason is al you need" were common statements. People shocked about something good being made in Reason simply don't know much or are heavily misinformed about DAWs in general. A talented music maker can make good music in any DAW.

To be clear I did not say that Reason was not designed to be used stand alone... It did always have a sequencer. But the idea if them "abandoning the DAW for the rack" just doesn't hold up when the rack is quite literally the core differentiating feature of the program.

[Yonatan]

I do have a bit of silly pride whenever other electronic musicians ask me what software I write on, and they're shocked at the answer (or in some cases unfamiliar with it), which happens often, but for me personally, Reason was always supposed to be a standalone program, even if not a conventional DAW. Its way of working always jived with me, whereas others didn't. It's an alternative to the traditional ways of working in DAW, as are trackers.

By silly pride, There was a culture of almost shaming anyone asking for VST support. "You don't need, and "Reason is al you need" were common statements. People shocked about something good being made in Reason simply don't know much or are heavily misinformed about DAWs in general. A talented music maker can make good music in any DAW.

To be clear I did not say that Reason was not designed to be used stand alone... It did always have a sequencer. But the idea if them "abandoning the DAW for the rack" just doesn't hold up when the rack is quite literally the core differentiating feature of the program.

Without a proper workstation the Rack is but a fun playground. The Rack needs the other elements as a sequencer/audio-recorder and mixer to shine. Certainly Reason was used with lets say protools back at R3, because Reason was mainly a virtual synth and sampler rack. Fun on its own but more useful paired with a DAW.
Which lead to “Record” adding a SSL replica mixer and audio recording/editing and thereafter since Reason 6, a lot of devices with the idea of using audio processing. So yes, the Rack plugin as a vst was a good option that might have been something PH should have done way back.
But maybe it would have been just another cracked vst, but widely used non the less.

Just as natural to turn Rack into a vst for those using different DAWs, so is the development of Reason as a more complete DAW by itself.
It would have happened sooner or later.
People would ask for such a streamlined solution.
Now we are fortunate to have that, but so little is put into its potential capacity since quite a while.
I dont know why and RS dont explain why the resistance. Is it to do with a cluttered code that very few at the office understand? Have main coders left Reason Studios? Is it the backward compatibility that makes for a stagnant road?
Those making devices and synths seems to be present at a few numbers, but even there most devices seems to have been bought from Line6, Softube, Ujam, Soundiron etc.
So the real in house office people seem to mostly be about directing, finances, marketing, social media etc.
It is all about what is priority.

I think the Rack is just as weak or strong as its sequencer and mixer counterpart integration. RS steadily have had to work hard to try answer all demands about how Rack plugin should work even more smoother with another DAW.
Reason as a DAW have a golden egg but treats it like it was something to avoid touching. There lies a hidden potential in Reason standalone DAW that is being handled with so much hesitation.
The Rack works at its best in Reason standalone.
And every little improvement and adjustment to sequencer, mixer and audio tools, are making it so much more compelling. And yes the Rack is star in that setup, but the mixer is a grace of its own, loved by many. The weakest part is the sequencee. I love it but wants it to get a real upgrade as it is such a crucial part of the workflow of a producer. One easily gets the impression that updates to DAW functions are temporarily done now and then by some one original coder that gets hired as a freelance when he feels he has time. If RS had a dedicated steady crew of in office coders that always works on the DAW, that would calm down a lot of users. Maybe it takes time for new ones to learn how it is built and we will see progress at faster pace soon enough.

I honestly dont mind if RS would break the backwards compatibility to some extent if that would mean a more fluently progress with updates of the whole ecosystem as a DAW. Because the pace of improving the DAW has been non acceptable, and is a very important reason why Reason has not enough active and paying users. And those thar are, does not seem to count, so they cease being ambassadors that could spread the word of this fantastic DAW. Every user needs to feel that there is a steady development also of what has been created and not just come up with something new devices once in a while.

Hardware you buy as it is. Software cannot be compared with that mindset. You buy a currnt version, but software is an ever progressing thing with upgrades so yes you do have to take in more factors when investing in a software tool as a DAW. A plugin is more likely as “what you see is what you should expect”, but DAW is beyond that, you put lot more hours into it and depend on its progression to keep up as a producer. Yes, you can record an album on an iphone if you are talented enough and driven to do so, but ordinary producers needs to have updates to better the workflow, as that is what other DAWs does. You may otherwise come to a point where the DAW gets dated and other options gets more modern.
Things change and evolve. Dont fix what is not broken can be a good approach, but RS needs to see the users perspective on how to better all kinds of workflow issues.

[jlgrimes]

Well not because the sound packs, but because the steadily upgraded DAW features. Reason has shown a disinterest of their own DAW, and so many have left it.
This is so crazy because the Reason as full DAW is where Reason shines the most IMO. It is Reason as an overall workstation with mixer, rack and sequencer/recorder, that is where real magic can happen.

The reality is saying you can run reason in any other DAW also says reason’s sequencer isn’t good enough.

Can I point out what seems to be a heavily overlooked fact? The rack and devices has always been the core of Reason.

Every new version has always included new devices. The DAW portion of it came later. Heck even with Record, the sequencer was exactly the same as Reason's. What was new aside from audio features and the SSL? Line 6 amps, ID8 (devices in the rack) and the ability to have more rack columns. Reason 6 incorporated Record to become a full on DAW and added 3 new rack devices. 6.5 added the ability to buy additional rack devices.
aka REs.

Now I do agree the DAW features are in need of some serious upgrading, I bought Studio One for that very reason. However, when you think of it this way, their moves have actually been pretty consistent overall. The DAW portion was never first. Reason was always designed to be used with other DAWs, via Rewire, but had enough capability to to be used standalone. Sort of like Machine or a hardware workstation like a Roland Fantom. The Rack VST simply just replaced Rewire for the sake of ease of use.

I think what's happened though is people have bought into Reason unaware of that. Many older users never used anything else because being 100% Reason came with some silly sense of pride back in the day and newer users don't know how Reason was before Record. Reason + though, is really just more of the same of what they've been doing. I do hope they upgrade the DAW as well though, and I'm sure they will.

Funny note on the thought about Packs and sounds not being interesting enough to draw people. I originally got into Reason around 2008 because the built in Sounds were better than FL Studio's... Didn't know what a plugin was and never did anything beyond use presets until a few years later.

Reason still have a great factory library.

When it comes to built in sounds, Reason is at (or near) the top of the pack.

I actually like that Reason comes with a bunch of dry patches. It reminds me of my old Roland Xp 50, where it was easy to find sounds to put in the mix.

The Combinator stuff is great as well and the new Europa and Grain stuff has a good amount of processing when you need fatter stuff.

[QVprod]

By silly pride, There was a culture of almost shaming anyone asking for VST support. "You don't need, and "Reason is al you need" were common statements. People shocked about something good being made in Reason simply don't know much or are heavily misinformed about DAWs in general. A talented music maker can make good music in any DAW.

To be clear I did not say that Reason was not designed to be used stand alone... It did always have a sequencer. But the idea if them "abandoning the DAW for the rack" just doesn't hold up when the rack is quite literally the core differentiating feature of the program.

Without a proper workstation the Rack is but a fun playground. The Rack needs the other elements as a sequencer/audio-recorder and mixer to shine. Certainly Reason was used with lets say protools back at R3, because Reason was mainly a virtual synth and sampler rack. Fun on its own but more useful paired with a DAW.
Which lead to “Record” adding a SSL replica mixer and audio recording/editing and thereafter since Reason 6, a lot of devices with the idea of using audio processing. So yes, the Rack plugin as a vst was a good option that might have been something PH should have done way back.
But maybe it would have been just another cracked vst, but widely used non the less.

Just as natural to turn Rack into a vst for those using different DAWs, so is the development of Reason as a more complete DAW by itself.

Agreed here. Before VST support the Rack plugin would've saved me a ton of money I spent on VSTs to use when I wasn't using Reason. If the DAW side was more feature rich, perhaps even more so, but the original idea of Record was a simplified version of audio recording. As they said "made for musicians, not audio engineers" I went to school for audio, so my choice to use another DAW in addition is party due to the workflow of that. Performing audio engineering tasks in Reason reminds me too much of using outboard gear, and having done that in real life - I personally prefer not to. As far as midi features, S1 and Reason are about the same to me since I play everything on a keyboard.

Even at version 3 though, Reason would not have been what it was without a somewhat decent sequencer (Reason 4 improved that so much!). So I'm not saying the DAW portion isn't necessary. It definitely is, but the rack was always the core that it built around. It's the main feature that makes it so different from every other DAW. What I'm saying is the DAW upgrades have always been relatively sparse in comparison. So it's not that RS switched tactics regarding the DAW as some believe.

Focusing on new users more than old ones on the other hand, I would agree with as far as R+ is concerned.But that will likely balance out a bit within the year as value gets added.

[QVprod]

Can I point out what seems to be a heavily overlooked fact? The rack and devices has always been the core of Reason.

Every new version has always included new devices. The DAW portion of it came later. Heck even with Record, the sequencer was exactly the same as Reason's. What was new aside from audio features and the SSL? Line 6 amps, ID8 (devices in the rack) and the ability to have more rack columns. Reason 6 incorporated Record to become a full on DAW and added 3 new rack devices. 6.5 added the ability to buy additional rack devices.
aka REs.

Now I do agree the DAW features are in need of some serious upgrading, I bought Studio One for that very reason. However, when you think of it this way, their moves have actually been pretty consistent overall. The DAW portion was never first. Reason was always designed to be used with other DAWs, via Rewire, but had enough capability to to be used standalone. Sort of like Machine or a hardware workstation like a Roland Fantom. The Rack VST simply just replaced Rewire for the sake of ease of use.

I think what's happened though is people have bought into Reason unaware of that. Many older users never used anything else because being 100% Reason came with some silly sense of pride back in the day and newer users don't know how Reason was before Record. Reason + though, is really just more of the same of what they've been doing. I do hope they upgrade the DAW as well though, and I'm sure they will.

Funny note on the thought about Packs and sounds not being interesting enough to draw people. I originally got into Reason around 2008 because the built in Sounds were better than FL Studio's... Didn't know what a plugin was and never did anything beyond use presets until a few years later.

Reason still have a great factory library.

When it comes to built in sounds, Reason is at (or near) the top of the pack.

I actually like that Reason comes with a bunch of dry patches. It reminds me of my old Roland Xp 50, where it was easy to find sounds to put in the mix.

The Combinator stuff is great as well and the new Europa and Grain stuff has a good amount of processing when you need fatter stuff.

It does. despite people not liking Reason 10, it did have much needed update of the FSB making it a more competitive solution out the box. Probably could've been added before VST support, but needed nonetheless.

[EdwardKiy]

I see this very differently. I buy a product for what it currently does. Not for what I hope it does in the future. if It doesn't do everything I need it to do, I buy something to compliment it that does what it lacks. Far less frustrating.

Doesn't matter what you or I bought it for. The market itself is very small, so the name of the game isn't sales - it's RETENTION.

If people really didn't care about what Reason was before, they wouldn't be saying they felt RS was abandoning the DAW. That's quite literally a reflection of how they feel about the past.

yes, RS had some hard-earned trust credit with the users since their propellerhead times. It's long gone now. They've spent it all on RRP. And that would've been fine, but they didn't stop there - they now OWE the users. We now know they've spent another year developing the companion and new devices that we specifically told them WE DONT WANT UNTIL THEY FIX THE FLIPPIN DAW.

I have a german shepherd, I love her dearly and she loves me back, but I have kids around and I need her to remain disciplined at all times. So when she misbehaves and positive reinforcement doesn't work, I have to slap her 2-3 times on separate occasions as well as have her miss some meals and she's well back on track. I would vote her to be the main RS strategist.

[orthodox]

yes, RS had some hard-earned trust credit with the users since their propellerhead times. It's long gone now. They've spent it all on RRP. And that would've been fine, but they didn't stop there - they now OWE the users. We now know they've spent another year developing the companion and new devices that we specifically told them WE DONT WANT UNTIL THEY FIX THE FLIPPIN DAW.

I have a german shepherd, I love her dearly and she loves me back, but I have kids around and I need her to remain disciplined at all times. So when she misbehaves and positive reinforcement doesn't work, I have to slap her 2-3 times on separate occasions as well as have her miss some meals and she's well back on track. I would vote her to be the main RS strategist.

It's a bit funny to watch someone talking for the whole of the Reason community and feeling in a position to slap RS like a misbehaving dog.

[EdwardKiy]

It's a bit funny to watch someone talking for the whole of the Reason community and feeling in a position to slap RS like a misbehaving dog.

80% negative reviews. As flattered as I am to be considered 80% of the community, I don't think that's the case. The problem is that unlike my dog, RS don't seem to be able to learn from it. Here's to hoping.

[avasopht]

I see this very differently. I buy a product for what it currently does. Not for what I hope it does in the future. if It doesn't do everything I need it to do, I buy something to compliment it that does what it lacks. Far less frustrating.

Doesn't matter what you or I bought it for. The market itself is very small, so the name of the game isn't sales - it's RETENTION.

If people really didn't care about what Reason was before, they wouldn't be saying they felt RS was abandoning the DAW. That's quite literally a reflection of how they feel about the past.

yes, RS had some hard-earned trust credit with the users since their propellerhead times. It's long gone now. They've spent it all on RRP. And that would've been fine, but they didn't stop there - they now OWE the users. We now know they've spent another year developing the companion and new devices that we specifically told them WE DONT WANT UNTIL THEY FIX THE FLIPPIN DAW.

I have a german shepherd, I love her dearly and she loves me back, but I have kids around and I need her to remain disciplined at all times. So when she misbehaves and positive reinforcement doesn't work, I have to slap her 2-3 times on separate occasions as well as have her miss some meals and she's well back on track. I would vote her to be the main RS strategist.

Retention is a losing game and a long term strategy destined for definite failure.

Winning new users is the ONLY way to continue to exist as old users die, get busy with life so spend less, become content with a particular version so stop upgrading, and occasionally leave.

Ergo, retention alone is a losing game of continually reduced income.

Also the market is growing rapidly. We're talking about an increase of $1 billion in the next 2-3 years.

So no, sales is ALWAYS important. They always need to be acquiring new users.

[avasopht]

It's a bit funny to watch someone talking for the whole of the Reason community and feeling in a position to slap RS like a misbehaving dog.

80% negative reviews. As flattered as I am to be considered 80% of the community, I don't think that's the case. The problem is that unlike my dog, RS don't seem to be able to learn from it. Here's to hoping.

Yes but you're making statements about specific things you think everyone else wants.

RRP was valuable to users who use Reason with another DAW. If you've never had the misfortune of managing sessions with ReWire you have no idea how much this would have changed the game 15 years ago.

So sure, there's lots of thumbs down, but that doesn't mean they're all united by the same needs. Some might want synths. Some might want VST3 support.

You can't assume they all want only what you want.

Also, they carried out a survey. You don't actually know what people put in that survey. So they might be doing EXACTLY what people want.

With Reason 6 everyone has to do a survey. They know what Reason users actually want, including the majority of users who don't frequent the forums or react to videos.

[DaveyG]

Do you ever wonder about the FL Studio sales model? Free updates for life. They bring out updates and new instruments at a phenomenal rate so they are either managing to get existing users to upgrade to the next tier (Pro etc) or they are finding enough new users to make it pay.

[EdwardKiy]

Yes but you're making statements about specific things you think everyone else wants.

RRP was valuable to users who use Reason with another DAW. If you've never had the misfortune of managing sessions with ReWire you have no idea how much this would have changed the game 15 years ago.

So sure, there's lots of thumbs down, but that doesn't mean they're all united by the same needs. Some might want synths. Some might want VST3 support.

You can't assume they all want only what you want.

Also, they carried out a survey. You don't actually know what people put in that survey. So they might be doing EXACTLY what people want.

With Reason 6 everyone has to do a survey. They know what Reason users actually want, including the majority of users who don't frequent the forums or react to videos.

I was going to take your post seriously until I read the last sentence.

[parma]

I have a german shepherd, I love her dearly and she loves me back, but I have kids around and I need her to remain disciplined at all times. So when she misbehaves and positive reinforcement doesn't work, I have to slap her 2-3 times on separate occasions as well as have her miss some meals and she's well back on track. I would vote her to be the main RS strategist.

Um, stuff like that doesn't help your argument, bud. This is coming from someone who is also unhappy with Reason Studios of late. I'd also keep the whole "hit my dog" thing to yourself.

[Tiny Montgomery]

Reason has a lovely and diverse community as evidenced by these boards but Jesus some of you are so melodramatic and entitled. Also the way RS staff have been treated by people over the last week or so has been a disgrace IMHO.

Yeah and don't slap your dog man.

[Melody303]

I honestly dont mind if RS would break the backwards compatibility to some extent if that would mean a more fluently progress with updates of the whole ecosystem as a DAW. Because the pace of improving the DAW has been non acceptable, and is a very important reason why Reason has not enough active and paying users. And those thar are, does not seem to count, so they cease being ambassadors that could spread the word of this fantastic DAW. Every user needs to feel that there is a steady development also of what has been created and not just come up with something new devices once in a while.

I honestly mind a great deal. Breaking backwards compatibility reduces the chances I'll upgrade by more than 90%. It'll be a big stumbling block to many of the current users, and would bring up an outcry like the last 2 announcements.

[EdwardKiy]

Reason has a lovely and diverse community as evidenced by these boards but Jesus some of you are so melodramatic and entitled. Also the way RS staff have been treated by people over the last week or so has been a disgrace IMHO.

Yeah and don't slap your dog man.

I'll go off-topic for the sake of your potential children. A GS's jaw crushing power is around 240 PSI, and despite training her almost daily, and despite her being one of the smartest dogs, if you ever have a dog that is also a weapon, and a 4-y-o child playing together, I would highly recommend to not be that idiot who lets his dog do whatever it wants, so you don't have to bring your wishy-washy thinking to your kid's funeral.

I didn't bring up my dog to insult the RS, I just pointed out that she is evidently a faster learner than they are. It's just praise for my dog. I just wish RS would up their game to compete on this very high level with her. To automatically assume it's an insult aimed at humans... Not everything is about you, you humanoidicists.

[EdwardKiy]

I'd also keep the whole "hit my dog" thing to yourself.

I have nothing against you keeping it to yourself.

[electrofux]

In terms of melodrama every update is the same batch. But Reasonstudios are not without fault in that. They hardly communicate with their users and leave them in the super vague with development directions. So people hold their breaths when update time nears.

Now they decided to put out + before the update so it is no wonder people freak out. It is not really something they asked for or have much use for or brings something really new on the table but takes away development time and focus from the daw. It is about getting new users which is ok but with some bad consequences for existing users. So this adds up to the usual drama.

But the whole problem with all this is simple though: they are too slow.

[Tiny Montgomery]

Reason has a lovely and diverse community as evidenced by these boards but Jesus some of you are so melodramatic and entitled. Also the way RS staff have been treated by people over the last week or so has been a disgrace IMHO.

Yeah and don't slap your dog man.

I'll go off-topic for the sake of your potential children. A GS's jaw crushing power is around 240 PSI, and despite training her almost daily, and despite her being one of the smartest dogs, if you ever have a dog that is also a weapon, and a 4-y-o child playing together, I would highly recommend to not be that idiot who lets his dog do whatever it wants, so you don't have to bring your wishy-washy thinking to your kid's funeral.

I didn't bring up my dog to insult the RS, I just pointed out that she is evidently a faster learner than they are. It's just praise for my dog. I just wish RS would up their game to compete on this very high level with her. To automatically assume it's an insult aimed at humans... Not everything is about you, you humanoidicists.

I grew up with German shepherds, as a 4 year old I would stare out my grandads dog and he once went to bite my face but his chain was just taut enough to keep him an inch away. He had German shepherds until he died which I walked and played with. Guess that's yet another life experience not exclusive to you.

[Tiny Montgomery]

In terms of melodrama every update is the same .... But Reasonstudios are not without fault in that. They hardly communicate with their users and leave them in the super vague with development directions. So people hold their breaths when update time nears.

Now they decided to put out + before the update so it is no wonder people freak out. It is not really something they asked for or have much use for or brings something really new on the table but takes away development time and focus from the daw. It is about getting new users which is ok but with some bad consequences for existing users. So this adds up to the usual drama.

But the whole problem with all this is simple though: they are too slow.

A valid opinion, but I was talking about tone, behaviour and retaining a sense of perspective.

[avasopht]

I was going to take your post seriously until I read the last sentence.

Ditto