Reason updates (11.3.7 / 11.3.8) and Reason+

[QVprod]

There was some noise. Everybody fusses about subscriptions. The fact that it came along with the new Version 5 release might’ve softened the blow a little, but they also don’t have the fan base Reason has. Reason fans treat Reason like a significant other and feel cheated on when a new feature isn’t aimed at them.

“How dare you give some other user what they want and not me”

We’re a unique community

Sphere wasn't promoted that heavily. Presonus promoted the Studio One 5 upgrade and the Sphere as an enhancement to that.

The users who wanted core DAW upgrades got it with 5. The users who were interested in Sphere signed up.

There wasn't much prehype either. I remember just waking up and seeing, oh a new version of Studio One is out.


I think RS makes a big prehype of something big. Then introduces a subscription model with downloadable presets. This would obviously get alot of people spirits down who was hoping for Reason 12 or a GUI update. Also subscription plans are a pretty polarizing issue in the DAW world. Some people are fine with them, others try to avoid them.

Reason 12 (or minor release with significant updates) + Reason + introduced together would have softened the blow.

It was and still is actually. There was a whole livestream like they do for every big update or release. They saved Presonusphere for last.

[earwig83]

20 a month so I can install my REs with a nicer GUI? Authorizer implementation was always an insult to anyone with a UX/UI brian.

I said "worth a TRY"

You get 30 days free. So anybody can check out Companion and download some sound packs... And if you are an existing Reason user and you like it, you can sign up to pay $10/month for a year. I pay more for Netflix and they don't let me keep any movies or shows

With all the time people are spending here on the forum, nobody can tell me it's a waste of time to try Reason+ and Companion for free and check out some packs. Or on that note, maybe we should reevaluate the value of a ReasonTalk membership

Definitely worth checking if it interests you! No doubt. Just not me for now. Most of the people in the angry camp like me are more upset about the long term implications of this. A lot of those same people predicted and worried about this looming subscription move upon entry of Verdane and the new CEO. So it feels like the sky is falling, even though it really isn't.. yet.

The big nightmare longtime reason weirdos like me have is not being able to open some obscure reason 7 file 20 years from now, which I know is ridiculous but then again, Props set the bar/standard for our expectations to be able to open old songs in perpetuity. Their fault for having had such excellent backwards compatibility all these years!

[Timmy Crowne]

They do surveys (and lots of actual market research), so they've got a fairly good idea of what people want...

...There will always be complaints.

I agree with you. I believe they do know what people want. I also agree with you that implementing features takes time. But they’ve had a lot of time.

If the feature requests I mentioned just emerged spontaneously between Reason 11 and Reason+, then it would be unfair to expect so much of RS. But these requests aren’t new. Some of that stuff goes back to Record.

And, yes, there will always be complaints, but it’s a question of degrees. The level of displeasure I’m seeing here and elsewhere today is unprecedented even among Reason users AFAIK, and I’ve been in the forums since the old Propellerhead User Forum circa Reason 2.5. I’ve seen a lot of angry posts over the years, but this feels different. Maybe people are more upset because we’ve all had a hard year, but this response is pretty negative with few exceptions. I wouldn’t dismiss that if I were RS.

[TDubMadeIt]

First off, I think it is great that Reason Studios is trying new ways to get musicians into their eco system. I understand that they are a for profit company with employees and investors that they need at appease. Personally, I feel that Reason is the most accessible daw for people new to music production and hardware studio veterans alike. I’ve enjoyed using Reason for over 10 years now starting at Reason 5 and currently on Reason 10. I believe that Reason excels at being a daw that inspires creativity, so it makes sense to me that the devs would be capitalizing on that element by offering this new subscription based model that provides the user with new content. With all this being said, I have to admit that I was fairly disappointed to find that this announcement included nothing useful to a Reason based producer like myself. I already have countless rack extensions, refills, vst’s, and sample packs. The one thing I haven’t gotten from Reason in years is the thing that is most important to me as a producer who only uses Reason as their daw. How the devs can continually invest in ways to attract new users and completely neglect the daw’s functionality is beyond me. This announcement and the release of Reason 11 have both heavily contributed to my growing distrust of this company. I truly believe that had Reason plus been released with a new version of Reason that catered to the needs of veteran users then this announcement would have been better received by the community. Instead it’s just more of the same we’ve been getting for years and another middle finger to the users who have invested their money, time, and trust into this company. I’m not going to be the guy who says I’m leaving Reason because I truly love working within this daw and Reason 10 is good enough that I can probably get by using it for the rest of my life. However, I will not invest another penny into Reason until the needs of the veterans in the community are met.

[avasopht]

It was utterly nauseating. I could only stomach about 5 minutes before closing he stream

I highly respect these guys as they've defined the better part of my free time for nearly 20 years.

I really want them to continue to be awesome.

But the enthusiasm was, as you said, a little nauseating. But maybe it really is that exciting for them. They will have seen the market research and potential for this to really take off.

Maybe it will. Maybe it won't.

But they're trying something new that could introduce Reason to a new generation of music makers.

Also, the market has been growing, and they're looking at a $1bn growth in the next 2-3 years. Everyone wants a piece of that pie.

[Carrere]

Going to give them the benefit of the doubt that Reason and Reason+ will live happy parallel lives, but one thing that I expect to change for sure will be the elimination of new devices/instruments that are typically included with major new releases (e.g. Europa, Grain). In addition to new features, those new and "catch up" devices were always a nice incentive to upgrade every couple of years.

I suspect the new model will be no new instruments included with updates to further incentivize people to join the subscription service. So that means if I actually want to OWN the Reason update and the new devices, I will have to drop $200 to upgrade to Reason 12 and then separately spend $99 a pop on any shiny new devices that in the past they would have used to entice me to upgrade.

I get that it's a business, and I don't mind paying a bit more every couple of years to purchase AND OWN the latest and greatest. Now what they'd like me to do is drop even more over the same time frame without ownership...meaning that I have to keep paying indefinitely if I want to have access to anything beyond Reason 11. Not going to happen.

[jamesa]

I'm not sure that hobbyists would want to pay $20 a month for Reason for the long haul. Especially if there is no payoff at the end. I think a free intro version would work much better to get new people into the Reason ecosystem. Better yet, deep-integrate it with a major DAW like Max did with Live. Cable TV and Netflix work because most things you only watch once. If you walk away, no loss. Adobe works because businesses and pros expense it and likely enjoy the continual up-to-datetedness.

But I am no expert in these matters. I don't like subscriptions and rentals myself. However, I am old and think in old ways. Thank goodness the perpetual license stays.

[joeyluck]

I said "worth a TRY"

You get 30 days free. So anybody can check out Companion and download some sound packs... And if you are an existing Reason user and you like it, you can sign up to pay $10/month for a year. I pay more for Netflix and they don't let me keep any movies or shows

With all the time people are spending here on the forum, nobody can tell me it's a waste of time to try Reason+ and Companion for free and check out some packs. Or on that note, maybe we should reevaluate the value of a ReasonTalk membership

Definitely worth checking if it interests you! No doubt. Just not me for now. Most of the people in the angry camp like me are more upset about the long term implications of this. A lot of those same people predicted and worried about this looming subscription move upon entry of Verdane and the new CEO. So it feels like the sky is falling, even though it really isn't.. yet.

The big nightmare longtime reason weirdos like me have is not being able to open some obscure reason 7 file 20 years from now, which I know is ridiculous but then again, Props set the bar/standard for our expectations to be able to open old songs in perpetuity. Their fault for having had such excellent backwards compatibility all these years!

Subscriptions are inevitable though. It's like being a record store and denying that digital music downloads are the future.

It doesn't matter who invests or doesn't invest in any record store or label, they are going to figure out how to sell digital music if they are smart. They know and acknowledge that people still want their records and CDs, and those are still there, but they know people want digital music.

Then they found that not only are there people who want to buy digital music, there are people who want to subscribe to digital music. If you want to be the only music store that only sells records while everyone else offers options, good luck.

If you wish for Reason Studios to be Blockbuster denying the power of Netflix, you're actually rooting against them. People often joke about Propellerhead/Reason Studios being behind, but here they are getting out in front. While they certainly aren't the first ones to do it, they aren't waiting to be the last ones to simply offer the subscription option.

Three or so years ago when RE subscriptions were introduced, many of us asked, "Why not Reason?" It felt weird for it to not be an option for the DAW as well. Because, why not?

[fiddlestickz]

How many computers can I install Reason + on..? I already have Reason on 2 computers can I continue to use both with +..?

[antic604]

In the stream at 54:53 and 57:47 respectively sound packs list two devices I'm not aware of:
- LM6
- ECF42

Any guesses whatare those?

[Aosta]

In the stream at 54:53 and 57:47 respectively sound packs list two devices I'm not aware of:
- LM6
- ECF42

Any guesses whatare those?

I'm afraid you will have to subscribe to Reason+ to find that out

[Yonatan]

The thing that is making all this so distasteful to most of us is the timing. Had RS first shipped a "catch-up" Reason 12 release with:

Hi-res graphics
Revamped sequencer
Modern browser
VST3 and VST MIDI-out
Combinator 2
Track folders
Video import

Most of us here would have praised RS for listening to the community. I would have gladly signed up for the subscription, even though I don't need any of those sound packs: "These guys did such a stellar job bringing Reason up to date, I'll sign up for Dirty Lo-Fi Chill Vibes Vol.3. because now I know they're listening."

Instead, we've been told the next version is going to have hi-res graphics and maybe possibly some 'other cool device... um... y'know... gotta be coy... wouldn't want our competitors to know our next move, a move they did 10 years ago.' Very little info. Yet, we're getting plenty of info on payment plans. They've given us a very clear picture of how we're supposed to pay, but no clear picture of what product we'll be paying for. And of course, by "we" I mean those of us who already own a license.

"Pig in a poke - The English colloquialisms such as turn out to be a pig in a poke or buy a pig in a poke mean that something is sold or bought without the buyer knowing its true nature or value, especially when buying without inspecting the item beforehand."

[joeyluck]

In the stream at 54:53 and 57:47 respectively sound packs list two devices I'm not aware of:
- LM6
- ECF42

Any guesses whatare those?

They aren't REs

"LM6" is the Line Mixer 6:2

"ECF-42" is the ECF-42 Envelope Controlled Filter

[Yonatan]

Going to give them the benefit of the doubt that Reason and Reason+ will live happy parallel lives, but one thing that I expect to change for sure will be the elimination of new devices/instruments that are typically included with major new releases (e.g. Europa, Grain). In addition to new features, those new and "catch up" devices were always a nice incentive to upgrade every couple of years.

I suspect the new model will be no new instruments included with updates to further incentivize people to join the subscription service. So that means if I actually want to OWN the Reason update and the new devices, I will have to drop $200 to upgrade to Reason 12 and then separately spend $99 a pop on any shiny new devices that in the past they would have used to entice me to upgrade.

I get that it's a business, and I don't mind paying a bit more every couple of years to purchase AND OWN the latest and greatest. Now what they'd like me to do is drop even more over the same time frame without ownership...meaning that I have to keep paying indefinitely if I want to have access to anything beyond Reason 11. Not going to happen.

The question rises what the upgrade cycle will look like with this Reason+ in the sea. For + users it matters not if RS change number now and then more often than before, but for those buying the license, it would be very important to know what update period is to be expected. Yes, RS need to keep R+ compelling, but will they deliver on those who pay full license? Or will they give less to them, thus making incentive to jump on the R+ wagon if to get any value. You cannot launch a thing like this and just pretend that "it is just as before, nothing drastic have changed, be calm, you can do as you always has.". It is like when they launched Allihoopa, they said that it would not affect the core user. But off course it did.
All such big changes affect everything. And suddenly no one knows what to expect if paying upgrade to R12. How long will that update cycle last. Will we see devices added to the Reason+ that otherwise would have been added to R12. Probably. If Reason+ was a bit more intelligent, it would take into account your subscription so that if you take a break after 6 months or 1 year or x amounts of subscription months, you would get some equal % off if wanting to buy the latest upgrade license. As it is now, one could subscribe for x amount and if changing ones mind or needs and wanting to buy the RE:s or the latest upgrade number, it looks like a really bad situation. At least let half of the subscription amount be put in a bonus pot as if you are renting to buy the DAW, so that after x months, and you take a break, you are getting to stay on the latest version cycle.
That would be interesting also for us longtime users who already own RS suite devices. €20 would feel better if €10 is put into investing in the DAW to make you get out of it without getting zero when sub ends or takes a break. So, if you subscribe for 3 paying months, you have 30 reward points that would bring €129 to €99 if you decide to buy the license and maybe the separate RS devices instead. It would be a win-win. So that every month €10 is for the sound packs and getting to use latest decvices from RS, the rest of the €10 is a possible rent-to-own and reward points for % off their RE:s if wanting some of them permanently in an offline mode.

[antic604]

In the stream at 54:53 and 57:47 respectively sound packs list two devices I'm not aware of:
- LM6
- ECF42

Any guesses whatare those?

They aren't REs

"LM6" is the Line Mixer 6:2

"ECF-42" is the ECF-42 Envelope Controlled Filter

Damn

[seqoi]

Putting an end to feature requests? One would think that a person paying a subscription would feel far more entitled to updates as they should vs people here so have payed for an as is product.

How did you made that leap? No wonder you are moderator.

Basically you are saying that customers money and their feature requests - which made Propellerheads exist in all these years - is less valuable then someone subscribing for a short period of time.

Nice one matte. I truly wish you everything best in life. I am not surprised at all at your forum position.

[Yonatan]

This model below would be a winner! (tons of people, me included would jump in and the community would thrive and feel a unity).

"€20 would feel better if €10 is put into investing in the DAW to make you get out of it without getting zero when sub ends or takes a break. So, if you subscribe for 3 paying months, you have 30 reward points that would bring €129 to €99 if you decide to buy the license and maybe the separate RS devices instead. It would be a win-win. So that every month €10 is for the sound packs and getting to use latest decvices from RS, the rest of the €10 is a possible rent-to-own and reward points for % off their RE:s if wanting some of them permanently in an offline mode."

Why so generous deal to the users? Because that builds a goodwill, and such a fair system, believe me, will bring in people from all over the music making world by iself, not even having to spend millions on marketing gimmicks, just by the word to mouth of happy users and through a regular livestream with Ryan and guests. Built trust and goodwill, and it will make this business blossom like never before. This is my solid advice. What you marketing people and financial people think is a missed out % of profit, is quite the opposite in reality. What you think you loose in revenue with such a fair deal, will come tripled by the amount of people of all income levels that it will attract. The more users who join, the more you will be able to develop, and the more people will not want to miss out. Go 50% reward points that can be used for the standard license and your RE:s, and people will feel safe and even feel that they can afford buying 3rd party developers RE at any time (supporting them to blossom and bring value to the platform).

What is lacking with what has been presented and which brings havoc among many many trustful and faithful users, is a common sense safety net for users. Many have not that high of an income as you people in Stockholm. It is a harsh reality for many music makers. But we love to spend time with Reason and put regular money on it, if we sense the value is a fair win-win deal.
Avoid the mental trap trying to be clever and see if you can get away with the current business model (we are not stupid) where we get nothing after x amounts of monthly subscription. It is set up for decline in the long run, and disappointed users that feel they got a bad deal. The music industry is very hard, so better do it right from the start. Just see the reactions, that is a lot of bad will for the company. Do not be stubborn and try to rationalize that you know better than the user community. Listen to the core complaint and bring in a 50-50, win-win deal, and it will prosper and be the best advertisement any amount of money ever could buy. The users would gladly be the ambassadors trying to get their music making peers see the joy of trying out Reason+.

[seqoi]

I'm a creative, and I've always wanted the fastest way to an idea. Tedious production workflows tend to destroy my creative process. Why would any creative NOT want the fastest way to an idea???

Sorry matte I respect you and your products but this is quite some nonsense.

If you rely on weekly "sound packs" to get you going then no sorry you are NOT being creative. So all of a sudden making unique and really creative patches is "tedious production workflow". I expected more from you.

If you think swarming yourself in terabytes of patches and samples is creativity then you also lost the plot.

Rehashing other ideas is far from being creative. What the hell happened to you?

Tell me, if weekly pack is not sole definition of "quantity over quality" then I don't know what is. How do you expect these packs to be quality at all - given the rate they were released? Not even FAR successful companies were not able to deliver that. In fact Native Instruments was just recently sold.

Man...something is up here. It's almost like a changed reality..People think that weekly packs is workflow and creativity...

[joeyluck]

Putting an end to feature requests? One would think that a person paying a subscription would feel far more entitled to updates as they should vs people here so have payed for an as is product.

How did you made that leap? No wonder you are moderator.

Basically you are saying that customers money and their feature requests - which made Propellerheads exist in all these years - is less valuable then someone subscribing for a short period of time.

Nice one matte. I truly wish you everything best in life. I am not surprised at all at your forum position.

I think you're misunderstanding. When someone buys a license, such as Reason 11, they are paying for that product as is. You expect bugs to be fixed and if new features are added, it's a bonus, but not an expectation. When you subscribe to something, it is more expected that you see new things offered to keep you subscribing.

So if I buy a Lord of the Rings DVD, that's what I have. I can watch the same movie over and over...maybe I buy the next movie in the trilogy. If I subscribe to Netflix, I expect to not be streaming the same shows and movies every month. I expect new content. I can't expect a DVD to constantly offer me new content and features. I already got exactly what I paid for from that DVD.

[EnochLight]

So if I buy a Lord of the Rings DVD, that's what I have. I can watch the same movie over and over...maybe I buy the next movie in the trilogy. If I subscribe to Netflix, I expect to not be streaming the same shows and movies every month. I expect new content. I can't expect a DVD to constantly offer me new content and features. I already got exactly what I paid for from that DVD.

People still buy DVD’s???

[avasopht]

How did you made that leap? No wonder you are moderator.

Basically you are saying that customers money and their feature requests - which made Propellerheads exist in all these years - is less valuable then someone subscribing for a short period of time.

Nice one matte. I truly wish you everything best in life. I am not surprised at all at your forum position.

No, that's not what he means.

What he means, as I understand it, is this ...

I purchased a Korg Triton keyboard 15 years ago.

I don't care if I don't get an update or a new soundbank (unless there's a bug). It would be nice, but if the keyboard was great to begin with, I'm not going to feel short-changed if it is the same keyboard in 15 years time. Likewise, I'm quite sure you've got lots of software, or maybe a car, or maybe a TV that you bought years ago that hasn't changed.

If I wanted to upgrade to the newest Korg keyboard, you better bet I'd be expecting new features and improvements over my last model.

If, however, I'd been paying $20/mo for the last 10 years to use a Korg Triton plugin, I'd be more inclined to demand and expect some equivalent value. Reason 10 is most certainly not worth $2,400 to me, and Reason 10 plus the equivalent feature improvements of one upgrade is also not worth that amount.

On the other hand, if Reason 12 doesn't have enough new features, you might just skip the update. You wouldn't feel entitled to having those updates to Reason 11 from your Reason 10 purchase alone - you'll just be unimpressed with Reason 12. There will be a desire and somewhat of an expectation for progression, but you won't feel half as entitled to receive regular and valuable updates to your Reason 10 license. Of course, Reason Studios would have to convince you to update by introducing new features (so this is not to suggest you're not valuable or less valuable as a customer, just how entitled you would feel to receiving new features years after making a purchase).

So it's not about full-purchases being "less value than someone subscribing for a short time," and more about the fact that someone who's spent $1,200 in the last 5 years is going to feel they've been cheated if they're just giving and giving more money to them and seeing nothing in return (it's basically a really bad deal). They know Propellerhead are making bank from these regular payments, so there will be a greater chance they'll feel pissed if after $1,200 all Reason Studios had to offer was an additional colour scheme, while they would still need to continue paying $1,200 over the next 5 years to use it.

Ergo, they will feel more entitled to more new features updates. I'm still on Reason 10. I don't feel entitled to any major updates. I do not feel entitled to get the features of Reason 12 for free.

Also, it puts a little pressure on Reason Studios to be more aggressive/consistent with its updates. That's not to say they had no motive to offer upgrades before (because if they didn't introduce good enough features, people wouldn't upgrade).

Now, are you seriously telling me that you'd feel just as entitled to a free feature upgrades 5 years after paying $300 for a new Reason license (or $120 for an upgrade) as you would if you'd been spending $20/mo for those 5 years and would need to spend another $1,200 to keep using it? Because that's all he was talking about.

So again, he's not saying that subscribers are more valuable. He simply said they'd FEEL MORE ENTITLED. Not that they're more valuable. Just that they would FEEL more entitled to new features and progress given how much they are continually spending and obligated to spend should they continue using it.

Don't get me wrong, there are services that people subscribe to that don't change, and don't need to. I don't need or expect Google mail to change or introduce new features. It does, but it wouldn't matter if it didn't. Of course, that's not something that you could just outright buy.

There may have been more nuance or context in his comment, so it might be a good idea to understand what he actually means and is getting at than to presume it's just a matter of him being on your side or on Reason Studio's side.

[Heigen5]

The annual price is about 100€ for the first year if you already own Reason. I still use Reason 10 so I think it's a deal for me to get Reason+ in the upcoming March. It is a good deal from where I am. I will get lots of new instruments and players + few effects + lots of sounds. I'll be settled for a whole year. I have a feeling that Reason 12 will drop before the year ends so that's also settled then. I will get a new PC the next month and it will be cool to have the latest Reason on it. I'm pretty sure that Props will drop some cool ish with the R12 and will show some love towards the standalone users too. I'm being optimistic. 20€ a month isn't that bad price either tbh. I just hope that Reason can still being launched with a dongle too though.

[joeyluck]

So if I buy a Lord of the Rings DVD, that's what I have. I can watch the same movie over and over...maybe I buy the next movie in the trilogy. If I subscribe to Netflix, I expect to not be streaming the same shows and movies every month. I expect new content. I can't expect a DVD to constantly offer me new content and features. I already got exactly what I paid for from that DVD.

People still buy DVD’s???

[Canister]

How did you made that leap? No wonder you are moderator.

Basically you are saying that customers money and their feature requests - which made Propellerheads exist in all these years - is less valuable then someone subscribing for a short period of time.

Nice one matte. I truly wish you everything best in life. I am not surprised at all at your forum position.

I think you're misunderstanding. When someone buys a license, such as Reason 11, they are paying for that product as is. You expect bugs to be fixed and if new features are added, it's a bonus, but not an expectation. When you subscribe to something, it is more expected that you see new things offered to keep you subscribing.

So if I buy a Lord of the Rings DVD, that's what I have. I can watch the same movie over and over...maybe I buy the next movie in the trilogy. If I subscribe to Netflix, I expect to not be streaming the same shows and movies every month. I expect new content. I can't expect a DVD to constantly offer me new content and features. I already got exactly what I paid for from that DVD.

Such a silly analogy. So each time you open your licensed DAW you expect the same results? Good one, not. " I can't expect a DVD to constantly offer me new content and features" So what content are we getting exactly other than 3 free refills a week as nothing has been clarified other than that.

[Heigen5]

I'm gonna buy a new PC that has no DVD-drive built in, but I'm gonna buy an external DVD-drive. Why? Because I have plenty of stuff on the CD's/DVD's still. Some games, some softwares etc. An external DVD drive that can burn DVDs costs 19,90€ in a netstore.