Doing long ambient stuff. Tips?

[MrFigg]

Been meaning to ask this for a while but seeing as I'm not really getting anywhere at the moment doing 4 minute guitar songs I got it in my head to do some sort of long ambient scape. I'm thinking along the lines of early Alex Paterson stuff mixed in with a bit of illbient (Paul D. Miller et al). There'll probably be a bit of Steve Hillage Rainbow Dome Music guitar thrown in there as well. (apologies for all the name drops hahaha). Anyway...setting out, for those who do this type of stuff, how do you decide how it's going to go? Do you plan it out before hand? Is it theme based...continuing throughout like a sound story? Do you just start with some textures and see where it goes? Do you back and forth adding stuff here and there until you've got the "product". Just wondering really. Even if you don't do ambient how do you think you'd go about it if you did?

[Ahornberg]

I do long ambient stuff, drones, etc.

My workflow is simple: I hit the record button and do improvisations. Then I cut, crop and do timestretching.

[KarmaFunkarma]

Chord changes happen far less often than you think.
Chord changes outside of the key are your friend.
Simple melodic themes with wide intervals between notes are good.

[carllackey]

i start with a sound, a loop ,or a refill then i'll manipulate it with effects or time stretching, then add a drone bed. leave it alone for a couple of days then reopen create something interesting. letting it sit for a couple of days gives me a fresh perspective on it.

[aeox]

Been meaning to ask this for a while but seeing as I'm not really getting anywhere at the moment doing 4 minute guitar songs I got it in my head to do some sort of long ambient scape. I'm thinking along the lines of early Alex Paterson stuff mixed in with a bit of illbient (Paul D. Miller et al). There'll probably be a bit of Steve Hillage Rainbow Dome Music guitar thrown in there as well. (apologies for all the name drops hahaha). Anyway...setting out, for those who do this type of stuff, how do you decide how it's going to go? Do you plan it out before hand? Is it theme based...continuing throughout like a sound story? Do you just start with some textures and see where it goes? Do you back and forth adding stuff here and there until you've got the "product". Just wondering really. Even if you don't do ambient how do you think you'd go about it if you did?

Hmm, I've never attempted this!

Be right back.

[BRIGGS]

In my quest to find the longest notes in the rack... I found Kompulsion.

32/4 is 8 bars of one note : )

Pair that with chords and scales.

[selig]

Been doing this stuff for YEARS (1986 album had a 19 min song). I have a few approaches. One is to build/find a cool poly synth patch, and find a few chords or interesting scale or mode to build on (probably adding FX along the way). I've also built modular patches as a basis for a long ambient piece. I always find SOME sort of structure or "story", even though it may move at a glacial pace.
From there, I improvise and record everything, then edit out the crap, and build up the weak spots (overdubs or FX additions).
I basically just try to create an interesting mood and hold the listeners attention for as long as possible.

[rgdaniel]

There'll probably be a bit of Steve Hillage Rainbow Dome Music guitar thrown in there as well.

I played with some long form, slow evolving stuff back in the 90's. One piece (unfinished and largely crap) was inspired by a short story called "The Great Slow Kings" who were creatures who existed on extremely long time scales, like geological time scales. That's all I remember, and I have no techniques to share. My joke tip would be, just write a normal song and then play it back at like 1/16 speed. (I didn't say it was afunny joke...) But mostly I just wanted to say that the Steve Hillage reference made my day. Love that hippie dude.

[Reasonable man]

Been doing this stuff for YEARS (1986 album had a 19 min song). I have a few approaches. One is to build/find a cool poly synth patch, and find a few chords or interesting scale or mode to build on (probably adding FX along the way). I've also built modular patches as a basis for a long ambient piece. I always find SOME sort of structure or "story", even though it may move at a glacial pace.
From there, I improvise and record everything, then edit out the crap, and build up the weak spots (overdubs or FX additions).
I basically just try to create an interesting mood and hold the listeners attention for as long as possible.

I have tried this recently. I think this is an excellent approach for ambient music to listen to and soundtrack music et all. Also the 'throw as much at it as possibe' approach leaving sections in the sequrncer and muting them till spaces to slot them in occur.
Then ...for me... the guilt trip takes over as i've found that i've added or padded a good synth patch with lots of time stretched samples and dr rex loops and reversed audio etc and then i think 'how would i 'perform' this live' ...in any meaningfull way.... and then i scrap it and go back and try set up midi triggers , put sounds and phrases into the nn-xt so i can play them instead , then i get lost in remote mapping and splitting zones in combinators and trying to perform elaborate effects changing 'on the fly' and then i wish i had learned ableton instead of Reason etc etc. and eveverything goes belly -up

I guess this stems from watching guys 'perform' electronic stuff live and really not doing anything at all and because of that ..loosing the audiance who begin to feel a bit conned and cheated and then watching others perform where the music maybe isn't as strctured but the audiance really appreciate the amount of work and improv clearly on show and even risks that these guys maybe taking and really really enjoy it.
I'm caught in this endless cycle of trying to 'perform' a recording v's trying to sequence one and all the contradictions that those two scenarios present.

[dvdrtldg]

At the risk of sounding pretentious, think of it like a painting. Apply layers of sound in the same way you'd apply layers of color. Think texture, contrast, depth

CV modulation is your friend. Include some generative elements, where notes or tones or modulations are done via LFO/sequencer, with enough randomness to make things a little unpredictable

Don't forget field recordings. It's easy to turn a field recording (stairwell, street noise, whatever) into a drone, with a bit of judicious filtering/EQ/delay etc. Boosting certain narrow EQ bands will give you pitched "notes", controlling those boosts via CV or automation will give you shifting intervals and chords. And your source audio being a field recording, there will be random noises & imperfections that make the drone more interesting & textured than anything created via synth or other instrument

And resist the urge to make everything "pretty", unless you're being specifically commissioned to create background music for one of those shops that sell scented candles and whalesong CDs. Don't be a hippy. Ambient needs rough edges and atonality in the mix, otherwise it's boring as shit

[MrFigg]

Thanks for the input. I think, as I suspected, that the record a whole load of stuff and then move it around and put it where it fits approach will probably work for me.
Although I've listened to a lot of "drone" ambient stuff the last 30 or so years...Lee Ranaldo, Main…even Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music I'm kind of vying away from that just now. When I got my first 4 -track I did a lot of droney guitar stuff over tape loops which I spliced myself using TDKs...the double speed setting was awesome at accentuating different harmonics by the way .
To be honest..Chill Out by the KLF was my first love. I won't wax lyrical just now about it but if you've never heard it then seek it out. That's the holy grail.
Nah...nice is not where I'm at...all that Pete Namlook and Dreamfish stuff was "nice"...until Pete Namlook went a bit dark...but even then it was still nice. I do still like it though. But no. No bing bong hippy incense and crystals music here.
I've got a field recordings I'm intending to use and Panda's RND is awesome...reverb and echo are my friends. And...well, Pink Floyd and Steve Hillage...something for everyone .
Thanks again folks. Appreciated

[Proboscis]

No bing bong hippy incense and crystals music here.

Um, but aren't both of your examples a part of the highly-drugged-hippy-prog-rock lore from the late '60's and 70's anyway ?

And...well, Pink Floyd and Steve Hillage....

Actually, two of my favorites ! ........ but is this what you're going for, in your own musical endeavors ?

I wouldn't call either of these 'ambient'. Cruisey, sure. Good musical story, absolutely.

I think of ambient as more 'droney'. So I'm surprised that you dropped those two (excellent) artists in Hillage & PF.

Here's a couple of my long-held faves from those guys ......

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[Ahornberg]

there's also https://www.ambientonline.org

[MrFigg]

No bing bong hippy incense and crystals music here.

Um, but aren't both of your examples a part of the highly-drugged-hippy-prog-rock lore from the late '60's and 70's anyway ?

Without doubt. I meant that insipid plink-plonk bing-bong-bing muzak they play in new age crystal healing shops who sell books on Wiccan for middle aged, newly divorced women trying to find a new path in life. (amongst others of course).

[Proboscis]

Um, but aren't both of your examples a part of the highly-drugged-hippy-prog-rock lore from the late '60's and 70's anyway ?

Without doubt. I meant that insipid plink-plonk bing-bong-bing muzak they play in new age crystal healing shops who sell books on Wiccan for middle aged, newly divorced women trying to find a new path in life. (amongst others of course).

I'm inspired to share an ambient track I did a few months back, re-imagining Slayers "Raining Blood" at around 150x slower......... and with my own instrumentation. Not sure which crystal would be most appropriate for the vibe. I'll instead run with Obsidian.

[Proboscis]

and wait the goddamn hours out while Soundcloud uploads.

[Enlightenspeed]

As a cool way to get a weird ass backing track for underneath, pick out few of your own songs, and then stretch way beyond what could ever be considered normal, like x10 the original length. There's a cool app/plugin for this called PaulStretch which a limited version appears to now be available in Audacity. The original app is free though, if a little clunky, but offers more possibilities.

[MrFigg]

It isn’t really the sounds I need input on, though I do appreciate it. Armed with guitars, a plethora of effects and a load of awesome samples and field recordings I’ve got the ingredients. I was more out after how people put them together. I mean 60 minutes is pretty long for a “song”. I mentioned Chill Out by the KLF. The first Orb LP. They evolve. There’s interesting stuff happens throughout and there’s a coherence that permeates through the whole composition. I mean I love Brian Eno albums especially Neroli, but the aforementioned albums read like a short film. So that’s more what I’m interested in finding out. How the hell do you do a 60 minute long song which isn’t just cool drones?
Actually back when I was young and in my first band, inspired by the Velvet Underground and the Spacemen 3 we would quite happily play 30 minute long drone rock songs and still think we’d cut them short hahahaha

[plaamook]

How the hell do you do a 60 minute long song which isn’t just cool drones?

Actually, I can think of some long tracks but no 60 min non-drone things that evolve in such a way. Anything that long... I just think of albums that are mixed one track to another.

I guess the Orb's ever loving Brain could in theory go on for ever....

[MrFigg]

Anything that long... I just think of albums that are mixed one track to another.

I guess the Orb's ever loving Brain could in theory go on for ever....

Hmmm. Yeah. Didn’t actually think of it that way. You’re right.

[plaamook]

Persona;l;ly, I tend to work in parts, then put them together. Layering and in both space and time. It's the only way I can do it. If I try to write a long track I fall at the first hurdle. and I thin even if I were to have a go at my own ever growing brain cover I'd do it the same way. Jam a little here and there and fit em together in post.

[rgdaniel]

Rather than slow down a normal song, as I jokingly suggested earlier, it can be instructive to speed up a slow song. I used to listen to Fripp and Eno's No Pussyfooting at 45 or 78 rpm (my old-timey record player had all the speeds!). The higher speeds would still be abstract and ambient (if a bit chipmunky) but they would evolve more quickly and make the underlying structures more obvious. Not that you would leave it like that, just suggesting it might be inspirational by how it reveals structural stuff you'd maybe miss at "normal" speed.

[TheGodOfRainbows]

When you guys are recording your improvs and later cutting/moving/slicing etc to make the kind of music you are talking about, do you play to a metronome, or is it all played freely?

I have a weird mental block that keeps me from doing this kind of thing because I feel like if I play without a click, it will create headache later on if instead of an ambient track, I decide I want to add a beat or make it a more traditional song. I'm assuming the kind of music you are describing is without rhythmic percussion.

But, perhaps that click interferes with the vibe you are trying to achieve. I know I do play and feel different when I'm noodling around on the piano without a tempo, versus noodling with a set tempo.

[selig]

Speaking for myself, I rarely used a click on my totally ambient stuff. But coming from a tape machine background, I instinctively just turned off the click and recorded into MIDI sequencers as I always did with tape machines. Click tracks don't help with ambient because there are rarely bar lines or quick edits - most edits of audio tracks involve long crossfades. It would be like using a grid to paint clouds…just paint.
And yes, the vibe would be completely destroyed with a click, as most ambient pieces seek to obstruct and ignore "time" and create a sense of timelessness (or maybe that's just me?!?).

[plaamook]

Rather than slow down a normal song, as I jokingly suggested earlier,...

Hey, don't laugh. I slow down almost everything including things I play (which is rare) and things other people play.
Trick is, since every one can plaulstretch things, what do you do with things that's interesting. There are lots of ways of slowing and stretching. Different algorythms etc and you don't have to use just one. Then there's the order of processing.
I assume for proper musicians that play things process based music would be unsatisfying but Tha'ts my area of play. Process, edit, warp, layer, sound design. I hate playing music!