REASON vs other DAWS

[Jagwah]

Did you happen to remix Human Resource’s Dominator a long time ago?

Yes....

Mad respect!!

[Frankdw]

Thank you!

[DJMaytag]

Did you happen to remix Human Resource’s Dominator a long time ago?

Yes....

No, seriously? Are you the same Frank De Wulf that was doing a lot of really cool stuff back in the late 80’s/early 90’s?

[Frankdw]

Yes....

No, seriously? Are you the same Frank De Wulf that was doing a lot of really cool stuff back in the late 80’s/early 90’s?

Yep, seriously...

[Stygian Abyss]

Hi Frank,

So nice to read one of the great european techno pioneers on this forum.
I have numerous records you produced a long time ago (Modular Expansion, B-Sides series...) in my vinyl collection.
Pardon my curiosity, but I'd really like if you could share a few words about how and with what kind of gear you were creating music in these early times.

About your hardware controller issues, these pages may provide some useful information:
https://www.reasonstudios.com/blog/control-remote
viewtopic.php?t=7498749
http://www.reasonremoter.uk/tutorials/

Basically, users can write Remote Codecs for any MIDI controller that is not included in Reason using a scripting language called Lua, but it don't think this allows to use Rolli's MPE in Reason. I may be able to offer some help, as I have basic developer skills, but I'm no way an expert and I will need time. Contact me privately as you wish.

About Reason vs other DAWs, I can testify that a very recent and modern DAW like Bitwig, that I also use and like, suffers from the same very short included compatible hardware controller list problem, which is disappointing at first. But, as Reason, it has an API that allows users to create their own controller scripts - it's a rather complex task and you need JavaScript - instead of Lua used by Reason - developer skills. But it also has something Reason doesn't have, Java Extensions, and the awesome one that is called DrivenByMoss includes a Generic Flexi script that allows users to map any controller to Bitwig, exactly the way they want it to work, without excessive efforts and any developer skills required. It's absolutely fantastic, but only once you've understood how to use it: all it would need to be easy to setup is a proper documentation !

I have also read that the recent version 11.2 of Reason has solved the compatibility problems with Soundtoys and Voltage Modular.

[chaosroyale]

Leaving aside semantics for a second, there are a lot of false dichotomies and red herrings brought up whenever someone criticizes Reason for not being "pro" or "serious" enough.

The usual one is that somehow the cool features and "fun" of Reason would be destroyed if they fixed the shitty workarounds and lack of functions. "Other DAWs" can have easy numerical input for parameters but Reason...can't? Like adding that would somehow stop you from using the mouse to try to select 0dB if that was really what you enjoyed. Or adding more knobs and mod matrix slots to the combinator would somehow ruin it? Or fixing the labels for tracks, note lanes, mix channels (and automation!! why is that still not a thing) would somehow spoil the fun of having to type every fucking thing in by hand, or trying to guess what "knob 1" is in your project with 100 lanes of automation.

It's excuse making. Mattias - great guy don't get me wrong - made the same excuse about not wanting to add a wet/dry knob to the rack comp at first, a feature that in no way harms the fun factor and in fact improves it by opening up more possibilities for experimentation, while at the same time speeding up workflow and reducing the need for workarounds.

I feel that if the Reason team saw it as a "pro" DAW and refined it that way, then other people would too, while keeping all the fun toys it has.

[Boombastix]

An alternative to the word "pro" is "to write/compose good songs and finish songs". Probably something we all can agree too, regardless of level of proficiency or your style or your goal with the software. Just as Zlatan wants to kick his ball with his soccer shoes and have the ball go where he wants it, so do you even if you just play once in a while. He is just better at it, but also needs a source of inspiration as he does it almost every day. Both can use the same shoes though.

My list based on my wish to compose the best stuff I can and FINISH the songs, I need first and foremost:
1. Track freeze. (I cannot finish tracks easily when the digital crackle is all over the place)
2. VST midi out. (VST midi chord tools are very helpful in finding new chord structures that you may not find quickly otherwise, so it helps to write better songs)
3. Midi comping. (My third take is better than my first, so I can make better stuff if can comp midi easily).

Those features are much needed to actually write / produce songs. I hope they will make RS top priority SOOOOOOON!

[littlejam]

hello,

i really wish Reason would support MPE
that would probably be my one favorite

there is another forum member who uses a Rolli with Reason
i can't remember the person's name
it'd be interesting to see how they get along with the device in Reason
(i think it's a seaboard)

i'd be after a linnstrument

i do not know how difficult MPE would be to implement into Reason's programming

does anyone know of daws that do MPE please?

EDIT: i just found a bunch of info here: http://www.rogerlinndesign.com/ls-recom ... ounds.html

EDIT: just found this, too: https://surge-synthesizer.github.io/

Serum also does MPE but does Reason DAW need to support MPE as well, or is it just the VST that needs to support MPE please?

that might be the one thing to get me to update to Reason 11: to use the RRP inside a DAW that supports MPE

cheers,

j

[Boombastix]

hello,

i really wish Reason would support MPE
that would probably be my one favorite

there is another forum member who uses a Rolli with Reason
i can't remember the person's name
it'd be interesting to see how they get along with the device in Reason
(i think it's a seaboard)

i'd be after a linnstrument

i do not know how difficult MPE would be to implement into Reason's programming

does anyone know of daws that do MPE please?

EDIT: i just found a bunch of info here: http://www.rogerlinndesign.com/ls-recom ... ounds.html


that might be the one thing to get me to update to Reason 11: to use the RRP inside a DAW that supports MPE

cheers,

j

You need both a plugin (i.e. a VST synth) AND a DAW that supports MPE. Putting the RRP inside of a DAW that supports MPE is not going to help as RRP and REs do not support MPE.

[littlejam]

hello Boombastix,

if i get a DAW that supports MPE
then i get the open source Surge VST
and i get SERUM VST or OMNIsphere VST
for the MPE sounds

and then use RRP just the way it is...
that would work

however, i still like using Reason as the main / only DAW with vst inside it

i'm not sure i want to use another DAW

!@#$%^&&%$$##@!!! this is a conundrum

thanks for helping,

j

[Frankdw]

Hi Frank,

So nice to read one of the great european techno pioneers on this forum.
I have numerous records you produced a long time ago (Modular Expansion, B-Sides series...) in my vinyl collection.
Pardon my curiosity, but I'd really like if you could share a few words about how and with what kind of gear you were creating music in these early times.

About your hardware controller issues, these pages may provide some useful information:
https://www.reasonstudios.com/blog/control-remote
viewtopic.php?t=7498749
http://www.reasonremoter.uk/tutorials/

Basically, users can write Remote Codecs for any MIDI controller that is not included in Reason using a scripting language called Lua, but it don't think this allows to use Rolli's MPE in Reason. I may be able to offer some help, as I have basic developer skills, but I'm no way an expert and I will need time. Contact me privately as you wish.

About Reason vs other DAWs, I can testify that a very recent and modern DAW like Bitwig, that I also use and like, suffers from the same very short included compatible hardware controller list problem, which is disappointing at first. But, as Reason, it has an API that allows users to create their own controller scripts - it's a rather complex task and you need JavaScript - instead of Lua used by Reason - developer skills. But it also has something Reason doesn't have, Java Extensions, and the awesome one that is called DrivenByMoss includes a Generic Flexi script that allows users to map any controller to Bitwig, exactly the way they want it to work, without excessive efforts and any developer skills required. It's absolutely fantastic, but only once you've understood how to use it: all it would need to be easy to setup is a proper documentation !

I have also read that the recent version 11.2 of Reason has solved the compatibility problems with Soundtoys and Voltage Modular.

Hi,

Thank you so much for your message. I really appreciate it that even after so long people still have found memories of those days and my take on music.
I actually started with almost nothing to make my first track 'Acid Rock'. An ATARI Computer running Cubase, an AKAI X7000 Sampler and a 8 channel mixing board... that's pretty much it. I was lucky enough that sales went through the roof and I could expand my studio setup: AKAI S1000 Sampler, Juno 103, TR303,808, 909 etc.
I stayed with Cubase which had only one competitor as far as I remember, which was Logic (Not owned by Apple at that time). It was basically a competition beween cubase and logic and Akai and EMU samplers in those days...
After a few years and +300 releases I had a bit of a burn out music-wise and at the same time my career in the film industry took off, which I still work in. Then on a holiday I started playing with REASON 4, and was amazed by it's playfullness... and although I tried Ableton and Logic, Reason somehow was my preference on many regards, even if friends in the music industry don't understand. And it still is my favourite to date, certainly with the VST support.

Regarding your info, I much appreciate your feedback and I will first go through the links and sort things out a bit. I might come back to you regarding your proposition on helping me out, as again, lots of the tech info I read here is chinese for me.

Good to hear about the soundtoys issues solved as I wantend to buy more from them due to delays etc.

Thanks again for your answer and help!
Cheers
Frank

[Stygian Abyss]

Frank, thanks for your reply. I absolutely understand that professional musicians may have difficulties with the technical aspects explained in the links I posted, this is more a programmer's than a musician's task, that's why I offered help.

A few words about the pro / non pro debate. While I mostly agree with the things written by Boombastix and Chaosroyale, I'd like to remind that Reason is an old program, and that you can still open projects made several versions ago with very few problems. This backwards compatibility is a very pro feature. Remote allows a very high degree of customization for control of built-in devices and REs, even if it could be easier to setup. This is very pro too.

The problem is that all this has been created when Reason was not a DAW, but just a modular studio environment, without audio, MIDI and VST. The standard DAW features have been added afterwards, and some of their limitations and imperfections are directly caused by the respect of backwards compatibility. That's why, EG, Remote integration is poor for VSTs and VST MIDI out isn't directly possible. And yes, this seems very non pro if you compare with standard DAWs, especially because real improvements could be easily done.

A VST MIDI effect hosting player would be a non compatibility breaking solution for VST MIDI out. Adding 8 remotable rotaries to the VST rack device, allowing mapping of up to 10 banks of 8 VST parameters seems also perfectly possible, and such a thing would almost equal Bitwig in terms of flexibility and VST integration.

[EdwardKiy]

What are you trying to achieve with your setup? If all you need is a fully-integrated (and then some) midi controller, perhaps you've overlooked the NEKTAR company products.

I own a Panorama T6 and it just puts any AKAI product to shame in terms of key bed quality, plays as good as any Roland but wears much, MUCH better, because Roland started using this crappy rubber in their builds, which degrades quickly even to indirect sunlight exposure. In my experience, Arturia midis are solid, but nothing special, they're just somewhere in the middle in terms of build quality.

I also have a question: what is it that Reason cannot do, that other DAWs can, other than VST-3? My only other (limited) experience is with Ableton, working on projects with friends, but I couldn't see how any of the stuff couldn't be done in Reason. Thanks!

[Frankdw]

What are you trying to achieve with your setup? If all you need is a fully-integrated (and then some) midi controller, perhaps you've overlooked the NEKTAR company products.

I own a Panorama T6 and it just puts any AKAI product to shame in terms of key bed quality, plays as good as any Roland but wears much, MUCH better, because Roland started using this crappy rubber in their builds, which degrades quickly even to indirect sunlight exposure. In my experience, Arturia midis are solid, but nothing special, they're just somewhere in the middle in terms of build quality.

I also have a question: what is it that Reason cannot do, that other DAWs can, other than VST-3? My only other (limited) experience is with Ableton, working on projects with friends, but I couldn't see how any of the stuff couldn't be done in Reason. Thanks!

Hi, well I'm achieving pretty much all what I want within reason, certainly with what REASON is doing these last years: VST etc.. My complaint as been stated above, has also been very well answered and I can agree with most of the feedback.
I would love to use Touché and other controllers without to much programming etc. It seems that the future is bright on those things.
That being said, I owned a NEKTAR P4 and found it not appealing to work with. It's plastic feel, it low quality faders etc. it just doesn't feel right... Didn't have the change to use the never versions T6 etc. so I'm open for that. Although I must say, the button thing for most 'normal' use, play, stop etc. I use my Mac keyboard which works fine. Its more to control fader automation, or Synth knobs etc... so therefor bought the Minilab... with no luck so far in working well... but saw a nice tutorial on youtube which I'm gonna have a look at. Also Looking further for a quality fader / knob controller ... and also I tried my iPad as a controller, which wasn't that bad to be honest.

Grts
Frank

[Stygian Abyss]

Frank, I can't see what could prevent you to use a Touché with Reason, even if there is no specific Remote Codec included for it. It wouldn't be very useful anyway, as this thing only sends 4 MIDI CCs. Just add a generic controller in the Preferences for it, and then right-click on any Reason device or VST control of your choice to use Remote Override (Assignations de substitution if you use the french version) which has a MIDI learn function. Should work flawlessly, no programming needed.

Edward, you're absolutely right when you write that Reason can do almost anything other DAWs can do, but due to its origins, sometimes it does it in a non standard way, and this seems to be a problem for a non neglectable percentage of the users. Some would like to use VST MIDI effects even if the Players are a great recent addition, others including me think that the VST device is incomplete (See my previous message) and could be easily improved, and you certainly know that one can find a neverending list of complaints on this forum.

But it's, overall, a very good program that, despite some stupid flaws, can do many things standard DAWs absolutely can't do (CV, feedback loops...) or can do, but with awfully cumbersome workarounds, and this mustn't be forgotten.

[kuhliloach]

The sad truth of Reason is it IS pro-level but built in such a way that very few will be able to get there. There are a special few who because of their skills can get past the convoluted UI and deliver the goods. This is why I have been praying for a UI and sequencer "re-thinking" to become competitive.

[Carly(Poohbear)]

With regards to many controllers not being fully integrated (excluding MPE) you need to talk to the manufacturers so they can make the maps and codec for their products or just write your own, it ain't hard...

[Frankdw]

Frank, I can't see what could prevent you to use a Touché with Reason, even if there is no specific Remote Codec included for it. It wouldn't be very useful anyway, as this thing only sends 4 MIDI CCs. Just add a generic controller in the Preferences for it, and then right-click on any Reason device or VST control of your choice to use Remote Override (Assignations de substitution if you use the french version) which has a MIDI learn function. Should work flawlessly, no programming needed.

Edward, you're absolutely right when you write that Reason can do almost anything other DAWs can do, but due to its origins, sometimes it does it in a non standard way, and this seems to be a problem for a non neglectable percentage of the users. Some would like to use VST MIDI effects even if the Players are a great recent addition, others including me think that the VST device is incomplete (See my previous message) and could be easily improved, and you certainly know that one can find a neverending list of complaints on this forum.

But it's, overall, a very good program that, despite some stupid flaws, can do many things standard DAWs absolutely can't do (CV, feedback loops...) or can do, but with awfully cumbersome workarounds, and this mustn't be forgotten.

You're right. I've been a bit carefull buying new tools as of the issues mentioned, but as you say the TOUCHé should be 'usable' within Reason, then I'll order one and see if I can make it work. I'll get back for help if needed.
Much appreciated!

Cheers
Frank

[dioxide]

Jesus. One of my musical heros! Now I wil go back and read what you wrote! Welcome!

[dioxide]

Agree with your points really. RS should be doing hardware Remote compatibility themselves these days, as all the focus from manufacturers is on Ableton. It can be very frustrating being a Reason user at times, but it is still a very good piece of software. Things are moving on a bit faster these days but it would be good to see Reason become more compatible with some of the latest technologies.

[EdwardKiy]

That being said, I owned a NEKTAR P4 and found it not appealing to work with. It's plastic feel, it low quality faders etc. it just doesn't feel right... Didn't have the change to use the never versions T6 etc. so I'm open for that.

Don't bother, the T6 knobs and faders are also nothing special - they are there and they just work, it's the key bed that I absolutely love about it. Best of luck!

[EnochLight]

No, seriously? Are you the same Frank De Wulf that was doing a lot of really cool stuff back in the late 80’s/early 90’s?

Yep, seriously...

I just wanted to mention that your Golden Girls' Kinetic remix was one of my favorite tracks back in the day. Welcome to the forums!

I don't think RS is about to start targeting the pro audio market.

What's weird is that plenty of pros are drawn to Reason, and were even before it became a DAW and then VST plugin. The OP is a pro - and he's been using it since Reason 4. Plenty of hits have been written using Reason. I guess as far as toys go, it's the toy that many pros seem to enjoy.

I do wish Reason Studios would spearhead Remote support and MPE. Its MIDI control is literally stuck in 1984, and it sucks in that regard. Would be legendary of Reason Studios would adopt the MIDI 2.0 spec immediately and start integrating it (along with MPE, etc).

[BigPictureSound]

I don't think RS are going to shake the ' Reason is a toy' perception when the flagship new device looks like a Nintendo and makes auto beats for you as you explore a virtual terrain! I also get the frustration of shopping for a new midi controller and seeing all of them have maps for everything but Reason. I also see a lot of folks going bonkers about all the stuff Reason needs to be able to do that it can't. It's frustrating because on the other hand, Reason's playfulness makes a lot of elements of music making very intuative and fun. That's the trade off really, if you need those pro functions you need to bite the bullet and adapt to a more business like DAW to get them. I don't think RS is about to start targeting the pro audio market.

I must enthusiastically disagree. The new UI direction is amazing and an innovative approach to generative percussion. It’s a sound sculpting environment, not an excel spreadsheet so I find the UX to be very professional looking.

To the OP- in my opinion, devoting resources to map out the latest non-professional, consumer grade flavor-of-the-month controller is a huge waste of time when it may only be used by a handful of people and ultimately get abandoned by the company after release and replaced by the next toy controller everyone runs out to buy thinking that’s what will make their beats not suck/ rinse repeat. I own many of the top DAW’s and all of them have a limited selection of supported devices.

[jlgrimes]

I will also add while Reason lacks in alot of areas, it actually is a pretty easy to use and for quickly getting ideas down actually has a pretty good workflow for a keyboardist. It is also probably one of the most stable programs out. Even with VSTS, the program seems to crash less than other DAWS I work with and after they fixed the performance issues, Reason is pretty much on par with other programs as far as resource usage (if they implement freeze, Reason would probably be one of the better performance DAWS). Its bundled instruments is an obvious strong point with plenty of synths old and new and even their old stuff is very usable with an insane amount of usable presets available (probably more than any DAW).

If Reason was total shit, you wouldn't have all the users on this forum posting everyday. You wouldnt have this forum. We would all be using other stuff. I made some of my best tracks with it.

[Faastwalker]

Did you happen to remix Human Resource’s Dominator a long time ago?

Yes....

EDIT: Had not made it to the second page before posting, where I then saw we had established this already!

The FranK De Wulf?! No way?! That's gold! Bought so many Frank De Wulf records back in the day (B-Sdies, Modular Expansion etc.) Well loved in my local club the Berwick Manor circa 1990 How long have you been using Reason?