Is Reason still planning to update its DAW?

[QVprod]

The podcast is terrible frame of reference for looking at the future of the DAW part of Reason. Reason 11 is only a couple months old and the plugin was the standout feature. Makes complete sense that's the primary thing they talk about right now. It's just marketing.

so, why would they not update the DAW side of things? because they may no longer need to, to keep their core users happy--because they've changed who their core users are.

I think this concern is unrealistic. There aren't very many features that can be added to the rack plugin to attract current rack plugin users to make upgrade purchases. The primary way to make future money from the rack plugin owners would be RE based if they can make that attractive. Perhaps new devices, but they'd have to really be special. So who else could they really create a Reason product to sell to but the DAW users?

[guitfnky]

The podcast is terrible frame of reference for looking at the future of the DAW part of Reason. Reason 11 is only a couple months old and the plugin was the standout feature. Makes complete sense that's the primary thing they talk about right now. It's just marketing.

so, why would they not update the DAW side of things? because they may no longer need to, to keep their core users happy--because they've changed who their core users are.

I think this concern is unrealistic. There aren't very many features that can be added to the rack plugin to attract current rack plugin users to make upgrade purchases. The primary way to make future money from the rack plugin owners would be RE based if they can make that attractive. Perhaps new devices, but they'd have to really be special. So who else could they really create a Reason product to sell to but the DAW users?

yep, I’m with you that it’s just marketing. all I’m saying is that it missed the mark, if he was trying to sell the whole package. it seemed like he’s very excited about the Rack VST, while downplaying the DAW. whether that was intentional, I have no idea, but it doesn’t come across well to me. sort of like going to the car dealership and listening to the salesperson praise the engine, but subtly dismissing the rest of the vehicle. just kind of weird.

to your second point, I think you’re underestimating RS’ ability to innovate their way into new sales (I don’t mean this in a bad way). you’re right that the primary obvious driver to get people to upgrade in the future is new devices, but they’ve shown pretty consistently that they’re always looking for the less obvious ones. time and again, they’ve found new and interesting ways to make us want to give them money—with features that take us off guard when they’re announced. there are less “sexy” reasons to have to upgrade too. what if that one new RE/Player in the shop does something you really want that you can’t get anywhere else, but it needs the new SDK that’s only available with Reason 13? you’re going to take a hard look at upgrading.

I agree I’m perhaps being more pessimistic than necessary. I’m new to the whole cynicism thing, when it comes to Reason.

[Busta US]

Indeed. It seemed like Ryan's answers led to shape the idea that Reason, when originally started, was not in a direction of becoming a DAW, but ended up being one. And that the RRP is like a sequel of the original vision of Reason. That's how I understood it.

Yeah Reason had no audio recording until 9 years after its initial release.
No 3rd party plugin support of any kind until after 12 years with the addition of Rack Extensions.
No MIDI out until after 13 years.
and VST support was added after 17 years.

Reason has been out for 20 years, so for the better part of it, it didn't have much of this. It did have a sequencer and before audio recording, you could load long samples into samplers as a workaround... I would load entire vocal tracks (recorded in Audacity) into an NNXT.

It was always a DAW to me. But it doesn't mean that it was their initial aim. I don't know if there are necessarily any specific requirements to be considered a DAW, but most would consider those features to be something a DAW would have. So yes, many people saw it as an instrument, used it with ReWire, and considered its sequencer along the lines of a workstation having a sequencer.

They are certainly focused at the moment with promoting the RRP. It wouldn't make much sense not to. I wouldn't doubt more features coming to Reason. Think of the Reason advertising along the lines of this Geico commercial Doesn't necessarily mean that they flip between what they are working on and planning, but they change the focus of what they advertise.

Thx for sharing Reason's history in a nutshell. Didn't know about that Geico's commercial seems pretty accurate even with the little info I have about Reason

[Busta US]

Although I'm fully on FL Studio and Logic, I weirdly felt pretty comfortable in Reason's linear and straight-forward interface. Which is why I care about the Reason DAW. It would be really sad if they "trap" themselves as an instrument rack because I believe their history and reputation is far more meaningful in music coding as a whole (whether the genius ReWire technology or the ambitious Rack Extension technology) than selling solely their instruments like Kontakt, Universal Audio, Waves, etc..

I looked deeper into this and thought where could I possibly find better factual answers than in their "blog" on their official website. There's this article dating from august 26th of last year (2019) called "Announcing Reason 11 - A word from the Product Manager" (https://www.reasonstudios.com/blog/anno ... ct-manager) and I quote :

"Does this news mean we’re abandoning Reason as a standalone music production software? Of course not! Reason 11 is much more than Reason Rack Plugin though. "

Now did they change their mind since the release of this post? Possibly. Like fellow member Joeyluck have mentioned. Reason's history seems impulsive. In other words, I noticed the sudden shift from Reason 5 to Record then back to Reason. The sudden decision of intgrating VSTs (even I heard about that news when it came out and it made a huge noise in the DAW communities, especially in the Image Line forum)

I'd also like to point out the FL Studio also has a VST format (you can open FL as a VST in another DAW, nowhere close to the slick Reason rack VST, but it's there.)

I strongly believe Reason can overcome their challenges. In my personal and humble opinion, I do think they need to communicate a little more with their core community. But I am no expert in marketing and perhaps they have found a more interesting profit opportunity selling the RRP.

[Liimusic]

I think after they fix the rack plugin with midi out , we will see some new features in the daw.

[Yonatan]

I would not bet a penny on RS totally leaving Reason standalone with all its technology behind the hood. But I do not rule out that we might see some transformations that somehow becomes a new way ahead, that might feel as if that they kill something. But there would make no sense to just throw the sequencer, mixer and rack integration out of the window. They will use all what they have got in Reason in some way, even if there would come a day of "we will not go on with Reason as you came to know it since Reason 1, but we have made something that together will become even more powerful. Now we will be able to easier upgrade the experience than we ever had before with the ordinary Reason core code". I know nothing about this, but am prepared.

Remember that RS have been digging deep into the code of Reason as is and done some optimizations. If that is working good, then all will just continue as is. But if there might be a better way to do it to make faster updates ahead, thus delivering more of what the users want (graphical optimization etc), then we might see some changes according to those needs. Some of those changes might be great and some might let some down at first stage.

I would guess that what take up time now is 1) Rack Plugin Development 2) RE development 3) Mobile development 4) Some new thing 5) Workings on Reason Standalone workflow.

And point 5 is probably what is easily getting postponed...
I would guess that RS tend to focus more on innovations than maintenance, as the amount of developers are not enough yet.

It is all just speculations, but I think the real division between RS and ppl on ReasonTalk, as well as between users here on RT, is where priority should be. And if Reason sequencer etc are further down in priority because of some more daunting tasks which RS see as more important in their timeline development plan (including financial plan) then the "feeling" can be as "RS have abandoned Reason standalone". I hope we soon get to know some more about what RS have in the pipeline.

[Oquasec]

They already developed cubase before coming here so I'm just curious as to what else they need to add at this point outside of cosmetics & notation.
Track folders etc

[Busta US]

I would not bet a penny on RS totally leaving Reason standalone with all its technology behind the hood. But I do not rule out that we might see some transformations that somehow becomes a new way ahead, that might feel as if that they kill something. But there would make no sense to just throw the sequencer, mixer and rack integration out of the window. They will use all what they have got in Reason in some way, even if there would come a day of "we will not go on with Reason as you came to know it since Reason 1, but we have made something that together will become even more powerful. Now we will be able to easier upgrade the experience than we ever had before with the ordinary Reason core code". I know nothing about this, but am prepared.

Remember that RS have been digging deep into the code of Reason as is and done some optimizations. If that is working good, then all will just continue as is. But if there might be a better way to do it to make faster updates ahead, thus delivering more of what the users want (graphical optimization etc), then we might see some changes according to those needs. Some of those changes might be great and some might let some down at first stage.

I would guess that what take up time now is 1) Rack Plugin Development 2) RE development 3) Mobile development 4) Some new thing 5) Workings on Reason Standalone workflow.

And point 5 is probably what is easily getting postponed...
I would guess that RS tend to focus more on innovations than maintenance, as the amount of developers are not enough yet.

It is all just speculations, but I think the real division between RS and ppl on ReasonTalk, as well as between users here on RT, is where priority should be. And if Reason sequencer etc are further down in priority because of some more daunting tasks which RS see as more important in their timeline development plan (including financial plan) then the "feeling" can be as "RS have abandoned Reason standalone". I hope we soon get to know some more about what RS have in the pipeline.

The speculations you are mentioning are pretty realistic in my opinion. I've read in this forum that Reason might be working on something new. Maybe it's close to what you are referring. If not, it better be good

[Heater]

I know I batch and moan about the Props but to be honest. I find the DAW side of Reason to be perfectly useable and fast to use.

[Busta US]

They already developed cubase before coming here so I'm just curious as to what else they need to add at this point outside of cosmetics & notation.
Track folders etc

When you say "they already developed cubase", do you mean the Reason team were behind Cubase

Well, if including a Brush Tool and improving note inserting is part of "notation" you are mentioning, then I don't personally think there's much to add besides VST3 compatibility and more export options (mp3, soundcloud, etc..)

I've seen a "Reason 12 Wishlist" in the Feature Request section of this forum and I must say I do find all the requests on this list to be quite important. I myself would be more focused on the sequencer section and in the key commands section of the list.

Also as a Future Bass/Instrumental Trap producer, I do miss the note properties function in FL Studio where you can control a specific note to slide or glide, especially for 808. Sliding can be done in Reason using the NN-XT but you need to manually automate the pitchweel slide and for me it's a workaround that kills my time.

[Rackman]

People have been saying 'they're working on something new' for literally years. The main reason being how little work has been put into the sequencer. The logic being that they must be spending all that time on a mystery meat project. Reason mobile or a new rewrite of Reason. But I think the reality is that they pretty much put the sequencer into maintenance mode a few versions back and are concentrating on REs and plugin/VST stuff. They aren't interested in the sequencer side of things other than grafting a few easy features on for new releases.

[Oquasec]

There are programs like reason, but they don't have the same build as this.
This is a whole other kind of system to be making music with and it's not supposed to be imitating other tools when it can either be used by itself or in plugin form. That way of thinking is long gone. What they can add however is the features that make sense and would fit this daw's workflow.
Other daws use dropdown menus.
This daw's modules are dropdown menus.

[Yonatan]

People have been saying 'they're working on something new' for literally years. The main reason being how little work has been put into the sequencer. The logic being that they must be spending all that time on a mystery meat project. Reason mobile or a new rewrite of Reason. But I think the reality is that they pretty much put the sequencer into maintenance mode a few versions back and are concentrating on REs and plugin/VST stuff. They aren't interested in the sequencer side of things other than grafting a few easy features on for new releases.

I think that comes originally from PH or now RS themselves. They have all the time hinted that after this or that, they be able to focus on Reason.as a DAW or that now with RE:s they can focus more on core features etc. But it have been a bit half baked. So that is one reason why many users have become a bit cynical when it comes to certain basic functions that has been requested for many years.

I would like them to put overall betterings (workflow, sequencer, audio part, mixer, browser, look, colors etc) higher up on the agenda. I can imagine it may be less "exciting" work to do, but it gives so much value to the users and so brings the overall experience up in quality. We would see fewer to turn the back on Reason and I bet less marketing would be needed to get users to come back. If workflow in every detail was a priority, that message would spread as wild fire in all forums and that in itself would make people go to Reason and thus buy more into it. Action speaks louder than marketing words.

Whatever they may work at, may it be usable and inspiring.

[hurricane]

They already developed cubase before coming here so I'm just curious as to what else they need to add at this point outside of cosmetics & notation.
Track folders etc

I've seen you claim this twice already on this board, and I just need to call out the way you are saying this for being incredibly misleading. Propellerhead did NOT develop Steinberg's Cubase. Steinberg created Cubase (Karl Steinberg and Manfred Rürup). However, of the 3 original Propellerhead founders - Ernst Boos, Marcus Zetterquist, and Pelle Jubel - ONE of them DID work on Cubase, and he did so for ONE year (Marcus).

Per his linkedIn:

Marcus Zetterquist
Software developer
Company NameSteinberg Media Technologies GmbH
Dates Employed1989 – 1990
Employment Duration1 yr
LocationStockholm - Hamburg
I worked on the tempo features, master track editor, hit points, tempo matching and film-scoring features. These were the Atari ST days. Also helped getting the first Cubase Audio Mac to draw correct audio waveforms even when tempo was automated.

If you, Oquasec, have any additional info regarding Propellerhead's involvement in developing Cubase, I'd sure like to see it. I mean, unless you wish to amend your statement to something more accurate, like "One of Propellerhead's founders worked on Cubase for a year".

Thanks and good day.

[Oquasec]

Well it looks like he did a lotta work over there then lmao...
It was definitely a whole decade before this daw that's for sure

[Rackman]

Well I think they got the message over their overinflated marketing and toned it right down for v11. I just hope they get the message over their neglect of the sequencer, but I honestly think it's not even on the list any more.

People have been saying 'they're working on something new' for literally years. The main reason being how little work has been put into the sequencer. The logic being that they must be spending all that time on a mystery meat project. Reason mobile or a new rewrite of Reason. But I think the reality is that they pretty much put the sequencer into maintenance mode a few versions back and are concentrating on REs and plugin/VST stuff. They aren't interested in the sequencer side of things other than grafting a few easy features on for new releases.

I think that comes originally from PH or now RS themselves. They have all the time hinted that after this or that, they be able to focus on Reason.as a DAW or that now with RE:s they can focus more on core features etc. But it have been a bit half baked. So that is one reason why many users have become a bit cynical when it comes to certain basic functions that has been requested for many years.

I would like them to put overall betterings (workflow, sequencer, audio part, mixer, browser, look, colors etc) higher up on the agenda. I can imagine it may be less "exciting" work to do, but it gives so much value to the users and so brings the overall experience up in quality. We would see fewer to turn the back on Reason and I bet less marketing would be needed to get users to come back. If workflow in every detail was a priority, that message would spread as wild fire in all forums and that in itself would make people go to Reason and thus buy more into it. Action speaks louder than marketing words.

Whatever they may work at, may it be usable and inspiring.

[2chris]

Reason Studios is focusing on the rack because it’s opening up a new world of buyers in a way that the things existing users want don’t. It’s smart! If they improve the UI and workflow feature like we want, nobody is going to say forget Live/Logic/S1/Cubase - this is all I need now. I honestly like the idea of the rack vst because I can use the rack in a daw with better workflows and UI. The best part of Reason is the rack, so democratizing that to people that would never switch from their chosen daw is brilliant.

In the short run we will get midi out and bug fixes. Beyond that, who knows? I sat out 11 until I see a reason beyond the rack to buy it because for now I can rewire.

I hope to see them greatly, and finally, update the UI. This will help sales, and it will bridge the gap to some of the mobile stuff they want to do. Next, I’d like workflow and sequencer updates but I’m past caring anymore, and I’m happy to use a better daw and stick to Reason for its strengths like fun, sound design, jams, and use as a sketch pad. Having Komplete, Arturia Pigments/V Collection, and some Uhe stuff - I don’t want traditional stuff if they are focusing time on instruments to sell. I hope they come out with more weird and wonderful stuff they have a knack for creating. I think their best asset is that they have some creative programmers that love music.

[EdGrip]

Sidebar: Your Geico gecko is voiced by a notorious villain from the UK soap opera EastEnders, Max Branning. In one storyline, his wife Tanya buried him alive in the woods.

Here's your gecko strangling Ian Beale:

[Yonatan]

Reason Studios is focusing on the rack because it’s opening up a new world of buyers in a way that the things existing users want don’t. It’s smart! If they improve the UI and workflow feature like we want, nobody is going to say forget Live/Logic/S1/Cubase - this is all I need now. I honestly like the idea of the rack vst because I can use the rack in a daw with better workflows and UI. The best part of Reason is the rack, so democratizing that to people that would never switch from their chosen daw is brilliant.

In the short run we will get midi out and bug fixes. Beyond that, who knows? I sat out 11 until I see a reason beyond the rack to buy it because for now I can rewire.

I hope to see them greatly, and finally, update the UI. This will help sales, and it will bridge the gap to some of the mobile stuff they want to do. Next, I’d like workflow and sequencer updates but I’m past caring anymore, and I’m happy to use a better daw and stick to Reason for its strengths like fun, sound design, jams, and use as a sketch pad. Having Komplete, Arturia Pigments/V Collection, and some Uhe stuff - I don’t want traditional stuff if they are focusing time on instruments to sell. I hope they come out with more weird and wonderful stuff they have a knack for creating. I think their best asset is that they have some creative programmers that love music.

Yes, as a thought experiment, if RS would have waited with the Rack Plugin idea, to please the core users, one may wonder what they would have to bring to get a publicity from the release.
Many things like track folders, video integration, UI updates, updating more core devices etc, it might not cause same attention, but it would surely give signals about that Reason is not giving up on making a stellar standalone production platform. If then, they release a Rack version, it would not cause same worries.

But if Rack plug came at 11.5, many would probably still wait for R12 as the bugs were fixed etc.
And I guess they have not the empoyees for doing both at once. So from that point, it is understandable that they went out early with the Rack plugin first. They must need many more users and see RE market as important revenue source. But the logical in this only would make sense if they really give Reason as DAW a real boost as next step. Because the RE market is tightly connected to how much love that is given to develping Reason as DAW.
It is this dynamics, the Rack plugin dev coupled with DAW development, that is the key to gaining trust in the RE shop. If there is confidence in both these, people will not hesitate to buy or rent or subscribe to RE:s.

The point missed is that the R11 release felt rushed and the adds to core users were not enough for going from R10 to R11.
A few tricks more and I bet I and many other R10 users would have had upgraded already. And even the main thing, the Rack plugin was half finished and the AU version came later.

I have nothing against the Rack as plugin, it is a great move. I am sure many think the same.

But the buzz, I think is a result about that there lurk a distrust between long time Reason users and the way ahead for RS, with new name and logotype, new capital "active owners".
I hope things will become clearer this spring and that worries about Reason as DAW ease.
I understand the many questions asked, without falling into the doomsday hypothesis.

It will be interesting to see what RS comes up with ahead. I welcome some change.