Tuned Drums in Reason, and Beyond ?

[Proboscis]

Is this something you work on, as part of making a track ?

I have wondered for a long time how to best utilize single shot drum parts when considering tuning. To my untrained ear, it's tough to pick out a singular note frequency.

Most devices in Reason will let you adjust pitch of a drum sample, but how can this be best used to be in the key of the rest of the instrumentation? Even a long decay piece is too quick for a tuner to detect.

Or is it a 'dial something in that feels right', regardless of any music theory ?

And beyond Reason's huge bank of percussive libraries, how do 'real' drummers tune their kits ? Or are they simply tuning each piece to itself, rather than to the band ? Seems possible, as I dont know if any drummer would re-tune for each new song, when the keys change.

I did some basic analysis of a kick played via Kong, an 808 kick. Basically recorded to audio, the dialled down the song tempo to 1BPM and looked at frequency shifting, using the free G-Tune VST

Here are the results, although I don't know what to do with this information, since 'more or less' the frequency descent is one whole tone, from A > G. Note that from around 1/3rd through, it no longer descends, but stays at G until decaying out completely


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kong_808_kick.png (23.72 KiB) Viewed 2444 times

[aeox]

Is this something you work on, as part of making a track ?

I have wondered for a long time how to best utilize single shot drum parts when considering tuning. To my untrained ear, it's tough to pick out a singular note frequency.

Most devices in Reason will let you adjust pitch of a drum sample, but how can this be best used to be in the key of the rest of the instrumentation? Even a long decay piece is too quick for a tuner to detect.

Or is it a 'dial something in that feels right', regardless of any music theory ?

And beyond Reason's huge bank of percussive libraries, how do 'real' drummers tune their kits ? Or are they simply tuning each piece to itself, rather than to the band ? Seems possible, as I dont know if any drummer would re-tune for each new song, when the keys change.

I did some basic analysis of a kick played via Kong, an 808 kick. Basically recorded to audio, the dialled down the song tempo to 1BPM and looked at frequency shifting, using the free G-Tune VST

Here are the results, although I don't know what to do with this information, since 'more or less' the frequency descent is one whole tone, from A > G. Note that from around 1/3rd through, it no longer descends, but stays at G until decaying out completely


>
kong_808_kick.png

Not with samples/real drums so much but with synth drums.

There is no single frequency, it's dropping from high to low very quickly, being mostly low for the duration of it. The fundamental of your sample is G. (if tuner worked lol)
'dial something in that feels right' exactly.. dialing in something that feels right turns out often times IS music theory. If you get what I mean.

I don't use tuners, but ColoringEQ has a really handy feature. A frequency display and the EQ points can be moved by frequency/note. So I just look at the fundamental in display and line up the "tune" knob to see the note. Pretty sure other non-RE EQs have this too.

[PhillipOrdonez]

It's hard to discern by ear the tonality of low frequencies, but you can use a frequency analyser using a slow setting and playing the drum several times from your Kong or whatever. Melda has a free one.

Another way people tune kick drums is pitching them up an octave to determine their fundamental.

I personally use the analyser method when I tune drums, which isn't often, specially for kicks, but you do you.

[xboix]

Put bluntly, no. If I hear something "wrong" in a kick sound I use a different one. Likewise the other drums. I sometimes EQ them and/or distort them but I never tune them.

[Popey]

If it's of any use I tend to use a free plugin called span and then hold the display. Once held you can hover over the highest peak and it will show you the key.

[Djstarski]

Try loading the sample into the NNXT . Highlight and right click on the sample in the NNXT display screen and select " Set root notes from pitch detection " and if you look at the keyboard on the NNXT device the key will be highlighted . You now know the key of your drum sample .

[aeox]

Try loading the sample into the NNXT . Highlight and right click on the sample in the NNXT display screen and select " Set root notes from pitch detection " and if you look at the keyboard on the NNXT device the key will be highlighted . You now know the key of your drum sample .

I'm tried it now with kicks I made + know the key of, and it's getting them all wrong

[Djstarski]

Try loading the sample into the NNXT . Highlight and right click on the sample in the NNXT display screen and select " Set root notes from pitch detection " and if you look at the keyboard on the NNXT device the key will be highlighted . You now know the key of your drum sample .

I'm tried it now with kicks I made + know the key of, and it's getting them all wrong

OK , please let Reason studios know this . we cant have devices giving us wrong info if thats the case . Have you tried Grain ? grain also analyses pitch .

[guitfnky]

never. I would only consider doing something like that in very particular cases. I work pretty much identically to xboix, in that regard.

I’m more interested in creating interesting music than in crafting sounds, and I’d never get anything done if I spent any amount of time trying to be that particular about each individual kit sound. for me, it’s more important to apply that kind of specificity to the instruments than to drums—unless of course, the song/section is drum-centric.

but I give a lot of credit to those who do build everything in a track from scratch, and still manage to be prolific, and make interesting music. I can only manage one of those things at a time.

[Proboscis]

There is no single frequency, it's dropping from high to low very quickly, being mostly low for the duration of it. The fundamental of your sample is G. (if tuner worked lol)

Is there anything to suggest as to why the tuner wouldn't work ? Keep in mind that the kick example was recorded at 100BPM, then slowed down to 1BPM to analyse, so the play speed is not an issue (which would be if I looped it at regular speed and had it on loop). Your comment on ColoringEQ sounds interesting, but I'm on a disability allowance with no disposable income for the forseeable future, and buying RE's is just not possible when its a struggle enough to buy food But Selig's device look great for a lot of things, and I own three of his other REs already and really love his approach to creating solutions for the Rack.

I appreciate the other comments in this thread, and will look at some of the other tools suggested. But I think the best way forward is to simply dial in a pitch that sits well in the mix, rather than mess around too much with precise notes that fit the song.

[Proboscis]

but I give a lot of credit to those who do build everything in a track from scratch, and still manage to be prolific, and make interesting music.

Those who go to great lengths to claim their technically proficiency often have the most boring music in the universe

[Data_Shrine]

I do it in Ableton, with the Spectrum Analyzer signal reading, you can tune your kick (or drums in general). It also helps that the Tuner can read short sounds burst pitch, unlike the Reason tuner which is totally useless for this.

Some sounds may still not be tun-able (for exemple a hi-hat or cymbal made out of noise).

However, I kind of wonder if everyone, even big acts, tuned all of their sampled drums all the time. I mean, on something like the Korg ES-1 sampler (more of a drum machine sampler really), the pitch knob really sends your sound to hell (in a good way, but still to hell).

[jam-s]

When I need a tuned kick (e.g. for hardstyle) I usually reach for PunchBDRE from Rob Papen.

[Proboscis]

Some sounds may still not be tun-able (for exemple a hi-hat or cymbal made out of noise).

Noise is still sounding at a frequency though, right. Or is noise just a mash of unrelated frequencies, therefore making it unusable to measure music-specific notes. I've never analysed noise to be honest, because I never use it, for percussion or otherwise.

[SynthGang]

Hi Proboscis! New to the forum here so greetings by the way I'm a (kinda washed-up) drummer and long-time Reason user (still stuck on version 9 alas, I keep putting 11 in the cart and then deleting it.. testing my nerves lol).

I just want to say that you really needn't worry yourself with regards to tuning percussion instruments at all! As others have mentioned here, your best bet is to trust your ear and go with what you find sounds pleasing!

However I must say, there isn't a track we produce without pitch-manipulated drums (tend to use pitch automation/envelope). I love it for making hi-hats sizzle and glitch, snare rolls crunch, and kick drums... well kick drums I tend to set and forget them. I like a staccato kick sound with a short hold/decay envelope layered over a synthesized 808. If you haven't already, you should check out some tutorials on YouTube to see how to synthesize an 808 from scratch! I used to always use Thor, but now almost exclusively NI's Massive and Blamsoft's Expanse - both crazy fat sounding!

The important thing to remember though is that, in most cases, you really needn't concern yourself with the pitch of your percussion instruments unless you have something specific in mind (e.g. tuned african drums of some sort playing a melodic line over some chords) or you have a boomy kick you're afraid might interfere with a bass line or something like that. Aside from such specific scenario, go ahead and mangle and play with your pitch and feel free to not worry about having to pull out the tuner!

Here's a track me and my friends produced where you'll find pitch-automated hi-hats, a pitch-automated snare roll and some warbly pitch-automated synthesized 808s that serves as a pretty good example:

[Proboscis]

Hi Proboscis! New to the forum here so greetings by the way I'm a (kinda washed-up) drummer and long-time Reason user (still stuck on version 9 alas, I keep putting 11 in the cart and then deleting it.. testing my nerves lol).

Version 9 is still an amazing release, but you'll get better bang for your buck if you hold out until 12 is released. I'm on version 10 and am happy enough to skip a release or two.

It's great to hear a drummer's approach to electronic drums. Tell me though - do you tune your drum kit ? And if so, is it tuned only to itself so each piece sounds good against the others ? I recall an interview some time ago with Danny Carey (Tool drummer) where he made a comment that many modern young drummers' kits are way out of tune most of the time, but never really understood what he meant at a deeper level.

I have seen many traditional Indian performances, and tuning the tablas is always something that happens immediately before they begin. The tabla player uses a small hammer to knock the corks up or down (they sit under tension straps) and work all the way around the instrument until they are satisfied with the result. Usually they do some tuning again once or twice throughout the performance.

[Boombastix]

I'm tried it now with kicks I made + know the key of, and it's getting them all wrong

OK , please let Reason studios know this . we cant have devices giving us wrong info if thats the case . Have you tried Grain ? grain also analyses pitch .

No, no need to report. You are asking a pitch detection algo to tell you a fixed pitch value but you feed it a sound that is changing pitch, maybe as much as an octave. NNXT, Grain, and others will give the wrong and different results simply because they were not designed for it. I don't bother to tune kicks, silly IMO as they change pitch...

But if you really want to then you can loop the last one or two cycles in the sample editor and use a pitch detector after it to tell you what pitch it ends with, if that is the pitch you want to know. Move it up a few cycles and it will tell you it is another pitch.

[Data_Shrine]

Some sounds may still not be tun-able (for exemple a hi-hat or cymbal made out of noise).

Noise is still sounding at a frequency though, right. Or is noise just a mash of unrelated frequencies, therefore making it unusable to measure music-specific notes. I've never analysed noise to be honest, because I never use it, for percussion or otherwise.

It's just that when it's all over the place (taking up a huge chunk of the whole spectrum), there's no defined tone. So I suppose yes, a sort of mash of frequencies.