Noticable latency differences when recording effect

[Ad0]

Hello I have a hardware compressor and the latency should be pretty much instant, or at least less than it is now.

Basically I followed the propeller tutorial and have a fancy setup that bypasses the insert at will connecting it to button 1.

But in reality when button 1 on the track for the octo is ON, it goes Octo -> HW OUT 17,18 -> 7720 Output track

Rack setup. hw audio output 17 and 18 are the inputs to the compressor.



Front:



Sequencer:



See the delay:



My latency settings:



Any ideas? Only thing that seems to help is to adjust the latency by hand on the audio track:



But for me that solution is a bit too cumbersome... In a normal DAW you usually have a hardware insert plugin you can ping and add delay to compensate. Maybe a rack extension to fake this situation?



Thanks in advance for all help, doing my head in!

[afrodude]

Try using the Recoring Latency Compensation in your Audio Settings and see if that works.
Try 4 ms, 3ms and 7 ms.

[Ad0]

Try using the Recoring Latency Compensation in your Audio Settings and see if that works.
Try 4 ms, 3ms and 7 ms.

Thanks! I tried but didn't seem to make a difference.

I expanded properly in the back and noticed this (latency compensation disabled) How do I avoid it?

UPDATE: Doesn't seem to make an effect simplifying it so all the warning lights are off
UPDATE2: Sound example:

hwtest2.mp3

(159.18 KiB) Downloaded 109 times

[Hauser+Quaid]

In my somewhat limited research I don't think it can be done just yet. Like you mentioned, Propellerhead needs to create some sort of External Effects Rack to help compensate. If you could ping it that would be good too.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I use 2x hardware reverbs with Reason but with reverb it's not as noticeable, just sounds like an imperceptible pre-delay. The other thing I'm hoping gets added at some point is Realtime export so I don't have to bounce my hardware effects before hitting Render to Audio. I know that all this isn't what Reason was originally intended to do but times have changed now and I think a lot more people are using hardware again.

[Goriila Texas]

Man your round trip is amazing at 128 samples.

[Ad0]

Man your round trip is amazing at 128 samples.

Haha I can probably get it down to 64. It's PCI Express card

Anyway - seems like Reason doesn't quite understand that it has a roundtrip. if an audio track gets inserted and you pick the same channel that is having an output from reason, it should factor in the latency, at least with a checkbox or something saying "roundtrip" - or have an own hardware insert module.

[afrodude]

Have you tried sending the drums directly out wihtout the shelob inserted?
Recording Latency compensation should adjust anything recorded.
Since your signal flow should be :
Reason drums ---> Hammerfall Output (which adds 3ms to your signal) ---> HW Insert---> Hammerfall Input (adding 4 ms)
7 ms of Recording Latency Compensation should do the trick.
Does the Hammerfall have its own software that you need to route signal through to get it into reason? And are you using the analog in and outs?
Also have you tried turning on and off the global latency compensation?
Not in the studio atm but i have a feeling its the way you routed inside of Reason which is giving you the problem.

[Ad0]

Thanks for your reply it means a lot to me.

Have you tried sending the drums directly out wihtout the shelob inserted?

Yes, no difference :/

Recording Latency compensation should adjust anything recorded.
Since your signal flow should be :
Reason drums ---> Hammerfall Output (which adds 3ms to your signal) ---> HW Insert---> Hammerfall Input (adding 4 ms)
7 ms of Recording Latency Compensation should do the trick.

Recording Latency Compensation is only if you choose "external hardware monitoring" - and the compensation will skew all other synths recorded since they go directly directly from MIDI -> audio input.

Does the Hammerfall have its own software that you need to route signal through to get it into reason? And are you using the analog in and outs?
Also have you tried turning on and off the global latency compensation?
Not in the studio atm but i have a feeling its the way you routed inside of Reason which is giving you the problem.

Yes it does but it's 0 latency, and other DAWs handle this fine through pinging and their own proprietary internal plugins for hardware insert effects. They are aware that the signal is going in a loop and adjusts the compensation accordingly. I don't think Reason is aware that I have a signal loop.

[Ad0]

When I added 3 out + 4 in ms @ 44 100 + 24 samples of the comp itself, it was much closer. 333 samples.

But I have read and I think it's impossible to have parallel hardware compression perfectly in phase?

[Gaja]

You can ping with the free VMG-01 RE. https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/ ... ple-delay/
That will at least tell you how much latency there is exactly.

[Ad0]

You can ping with the free VMG-01 RE. https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/ ... ple-delay/
That will at least tell you how much latency there is exactly.

LOL Thanks! I actually already have that RE. But I never used the ping. Thanks!

[Ad0]

Well look at that:



Not far off from my calculation!

[bolandross]

Like you mentioned, Propellerhead needs to create some sort of External Effects Rack to help compensate. If you could ping it that would be good too.

Yep, I would like that, too.

[ScuzzyEye]

I believe on the back of a mix channel, with the programmer showing, there's a place to manually add an amount of latency. That combined with the measured ping time, you should be able to get what you need. Even if it isn't automatic.

[bolandross]

That's what I am working with at the moment. Unfortunately, when changing computers or just audio settings, the value has to be recalculated.

[michal22]

Reason is hopeless in terms of equalizing all delays. Example:
1. Add Redrum and set a simple grid for hat.
2. Add the Izotope Neutron 2 as an effect and make it set the sound (its processing takes a long distance, which is easy to see later).
3. Click Rec Source on the Master Section.
4. Add a new audio track and set stereo and Master Section as the source.
5. Record audio.
As you can see, the sound is shifted. Hats do not match the tempo grid. Everything went off.
For comparison, Ableton:
1. Add effects and whatever you want to any of the tracks.
2. Create a new channel and set Resampling as the source.
3. Record.
Everything is perfect with a grid of pace. Exactly how it should be. It does not matter the big delay of Neutron 2. You make music instead of fighting with DAW.
Reason is currently lost and very underdeveloped. I went to Ableton. Reason now serves me to make samples. I hope I will return one day. Ableton is much faster and simpler. Even a simple increase of the note by the range in Reason is a lot of clicks - F8, pitch section, enter the value on the keyboard, click apply. In Ableton: mark the note, press SHIFT + up arrow. Done.

Reason also has some advantages and towers in a certain range above the Ableton, e.g. more editing notes possibilities (F8 menu).
After all, there is too much obsolete code in the program's base. Too much underdevelopment and errors. I hope that Propellerhead will reprogram the entire Reason engine to new standards because this program has great potential.

[bolandross]

Hey michal,

does this happen to all VST plugins which introduce delay? Since Version 9.5, Reason offers Delay Compensation for Plugins, so I suggest testing this with other plugins and, if the result is the same, create a support ticket at Propellerheads.

I agree on certain things you mentioned regarding Reason, but I also think it's important that we as customers, who paid for a product and who are unhappy with the quality, we should communicate with Propellerheads and report all the things that don't work as intended.

As much as I love Ableton Live, I must also admit that no other program inspires me as much to make music as Reason does. There were definitely some bad decisions in the past that Propellerheads made, but there were also a lot of good ones, that I definitely support and enjoy.

[michal22]

Hey bolandross
I sometimes contact with Propellerhead, but in this case it is probably not a mistake, but the function introduced in this way. I do not know. I previously asked them (at every opportunity) for delay compensation. This was my biggest problem sooner. It has been introduced, but it does not look like it should be in my opinion. I often feel that new functions are introduced carelessly and with errors. Now I am in Ableton and my problems are over. Recently, I've been struggling less for corrections in Reason because I've lost strength. Propellerhead knows the flaws of its software. I try to help them in modernizing. I hope that Reason will develop his wings once and come back with a big pump.

EDIT: You can also see how long delay compensation has already been implemented and how few RE manufacturers have updated their extensions to support this compensation. This is not good for the future.