Gain Staging and Vocals

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elephant-ears
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20 Nov 2018

Should I record my vocals before gain staging, or gain staging first then record vocals? I'm trying to figure out the order of doing things in mixing.

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EnochLight
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20 Nov 2018

elephant-ears wrote:
20 Nov 2018
Should I record my vocals before gain staging, or gain staging first then record vocals? I'm trying to figure out the order of doing things in mixing.
Gain staging is a waste of time in Reason and not necessary. Record away! Just get your recording levels right, and you're good to go.

/ducks :puf_bigsmile: :lol:
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selig
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20 Nov 2018

elephant-ears wrote:
20 Nov 2018
Should I record my vocals before gain staging, or gain staging first then record vocals? I'm trying to figure out the order of doing things in mixing.
Not sure I understand the question, but I don't gain stage - I just keep ALL signals around the same peak reference level. Add a drum machine, make sure it peaks around -12dBFS. Record a vocal, make sure it peaks around -12dBFS. Add a compressor, use makeup gain to make sure the output peaks around -12dBFS.

Doing this has greatly simplified my workflow. There's no additional "stages" of things to do, because you keep things where they should be from the start. It makes things simple for a number of reasons.
1: you don't ever have to gain stage because all gain stages are already where they should be.
2: you can bypass any added FX and the levels don't jump - makes doing A/B comparisons "fair", allows you by bypass or delete any processing without ruining your balances, allows you to add new FX without affected balances.
3: you can start with the same initial settings on any dynamics/saturation devices because you already know the input level they will "see" - makes setting them up MUCH quicker to setup and give you more predictable results.
4: you can mix quicker because you're not chasing the master fader to prevent clipping. This is because you're using a peak reference level that assures the final mix is safely below clipping. NOTE: if you try using -12dBFS as your reference level but find your mix clipping (because you use TONS of channels), try a lower peak reference level!]
5: you can record audio tracks without worrying about clipping, because you use -12dBFS as your peak reference level. This not only assures all recorded audio matches the other levels inside of Reason, it also gives you headroom for your mix bus, as well as allowing you to focus on the performance and not watching levels like a hawk!
6: finally, leaving headroom on your mix allows you to bump up the vocals in the phones while recording without clipping the mix. If you don't leave headroom on the mix bus, you can't turn up the vocals in the phones - and you WILL be turning up the vocals in the phones (I start by boosting it 6dB while recording as a default, sometimes more depending on the singer).

If you want to learn more about what I'm talking about, I've made a quick video which demonstrates this concept:
Selig Audio, LLC

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Creativemind
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20 Nov 2018

selig wrote:
20 Nov 2018
elephant-ears wrote:
20 Nov 2018
Should I record my vocals before gain staging, or gain staging first then record vocals? I'm trying to figure out the order of doing things in mixing.
Not sure I understand the question, but I don't gain stage - I just keep ALL signals around the same peak reference level. Add a drum machine, make sure it peaks around -12dBFS. Record a vocal, make sure it peaks around -12dBFS. Add a compressor, use makeup gain to make sure the output peaks around -12dBFS.

Doing this has greatly simplified my workflow. There's no additional "stages" of things to do, because you keep things where they should be from the start. It makes things simple for a number of reasons.
1: you don't ever have to gain stage because all gain stages are already where they should be.
2: you can bypass any added FX and the levels don't jump - makes doing A/B comparisons "fair", allows you by bypass or delete any processing without ruining your balances, allows you to add new FX without affected balances.
3: you can start with the same initial settings on any dynamics/saturation devices because you already know the input level they will "see" - makes setting them up MUCH quicker to setup and give you more predictable results.
4: you can mix quicker because you're not chasing the master fader to prevent clipping. This is because you're using a peak reference level that assures the final mix is safely below clipping. NOTE: if you try using -12dBFS as your reference level but find your mix clipping (because you use TONS of channels), try a lower peak reference level!]
5: you can record audio tracks without worrying about clipping, because you use -12dBFS as your peak reference level. This not only assures all recorded audio matches the other levels inside of Reason, it also gives you headroom for your mix bus, as well as allowing you to focus on the performance and not watching levels like a hawk!
6: finally, leaving headroom on your mix allows you to bump up the vocals in the phones while recording without clipping the mix. If you don't leave headroom on the mix bus, you can't turn up the vocals in the phones - and you WILL be turning up the vocals in the phones (I start by boosting it 6dB while recording as a default, sometimes more depending on the singer).

If you want to learn more about what I'm talking about, I've made a quick video which demonstrates this concept:
Why do you keep everything at -12dBFS? and if I slap a Selig Gain on a track (as an insert) I usually adjust nothing on the Selig Gain and just read what the Peak Hold says, is this the correct way of reading the Selig Gain? this is on the default mode of Trim. Also, the track I was just measuring was a Combinator with a Saturation Knob after it and a Synapse Deep Reverb. Should I stick the Selig Gain before the Saturation Knob and Reverb or after?
:reason:

Reason Studio's 11.3 / Cockos Reaper 6.82 / Cakewalk By Bandlab / Orion 8.6
http://soundcloud.com/creativemind75/iv ... soul-mix-3

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elephant-ears
Posts: 16
Joined: 23 Apr 2018

20 Nov 2018

selig wrote:
20 Nov 2018
elephant-ears wrote:
20 Nov 2018
Should I record my vocals before gain staging, or gain staging first then record vocals? I'm trying to figure out the order of doing things in mixing.
Not sure I understand the question, but I don't gain stage - I just keep ALL signals around the same peak reference level. Add a drum machine, make sure it peaks around -12dBFS. Record a vocal, make sure it peaks around -12dBFS. Add a compressor, use makeup gain to make sure the output peaks around -12dBFS.

Doing this has greatly simplified my workflow. There's no additional "stages" of things to do, because you keep things where they should be from the start. It makes things simple for a number of reasons.
1: you don't ever have to gain stage because all gain stages are already where they should be.
2: you can bypass any added FX and the levels don't jump - makes doing A/B comparisons "fair", allows you by bypass or delete any processing without ruining your balances, allows you to add new FX without affected balances.
3: you can start with the same initial settings on any dynamics/saturation devices because you already know the input level they will "see" - makes setting them up MUCH quicker to setup and give you more predictable results.
4: you can mix quicker because you're not chasing the master fader to prevent clipping. This is because you're using a peak reference level that assures the final mix is safely below clipping. NOTE: if you try using -12dBFS as your reference level but find your mix clipping (because you use TONS of channels), try a lower peak reference level!]
5: you can record audio tracks without worrying about clipping, because you use -12dBFS as your peak reference level. This not only assures all recorded audio matches the other levels inside of Reason, it also gives you headroom for your mix bus, as well as allowing you to focus on the performance and not watching levels like a hawk!
6: finally, leaving headroom on your mix allows you to bump up the vocals in the phones while recording without clipping the mix. If you don't leave headroom on the mix bus, you can't turn up the vocals in the phones - and you WILL be turning up the vocals in the phones (I start by boosting it 6dB while recording as a default, sometimes more depending on the singer).

If you want to learn more about what I'm talking about, I've made a quick video which demonstrates this concept:
I watched your video twice. I'm too much of a beginner to understand most of it, but I want to. It makes sense to deal with everything first rather than come back to it later, which was what I hoped to figure out how to do anyway., so thanks.

I looked at all my raw levels and my faders are all in the -10 zone. Except my bass stays around the 0 and sometimes goes up to the 4 in the red. My master peak meter is around 12 but going up into the 8 because of the bass. I know I need to bring the bass down. Should I use the gain knob for that? I don't want to lose the fullness of it. I heard the I should use the gain knobs first so then I have more room to use my faders if I need to.

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selig
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Posts: 11685
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Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

20 Nov 2018

elephant-ears wrote:
20 Nov 2018

I watched your video twice. I'm too much of a beginner to understand most of it, but I want to. It makes sense to deal with everything first rather than come back to it later, which was what I hoped to figure out how to do anyway., so thanks.

I looked at all my raw levels and my faders are all in the -10 zone. Except my bass stays around the 0 and sometimes goes up to the 4 in the red. My master peak meter is around 12 but going up into the 8 because of the bass. I know I need to bring the bass down. Should I use the gain knob for that? I don't want to lose the fullness of it. I heard the I should use the gain knobs first so then I have more room to use my faders if I need to.
The important things to learn are that there are different modes for meters, so you can't just say "the meters say -10" and have communicated any real information. Also, when you say your "master peak meter is around 12", do you mean -12, and are you sure it's reading PEAK mode? These are not trivial matters, there can be as much as 20 dB or more difference between Peak and VU mode on meters, so we're not talking small fries here. ;)

Also important is that it doesn't necessarily matter where the faders are - faders and levels are two different (while related) things. It's like saying "I hardly pressed the gas pedal" when caught speeding - what's important is your speed, not where the gas pedal was!
What ultimately matters most is knowing what the audio level is, and in a digital system it matters where the PEAK levels are because they are what's going to clip (if anything clips). So I suggest using peak meters for checking signal levels in Reason, and sadly that means you cannot rely on the channel meters (next to the channel faders) because they always read VU (average).

One more point - in a floating point system such as Reason, you can turn the gain down or up anywhere and the actual tone of the audio will not change. That is UNLESS you are using a dynamics (compressor/limiter/expander/gate) or saturation/distortion effect. These types of effects can vary depending on how hot the signal is coming into them, because they respond to level changes. So if you adjust level BEFORE a compressor, not only will you reduce the level but you will also likely reduce the amount of compression (same as if you adjust the threshold). But if you adjust the level AFTER a compressor, all you change is level. This is why faders, being the last in the audio path in most cases (not counting busses) are the best place to adjust level when balancing a mix.

TLDR: for the most part (there are always exceptions) set your levels where you want them from the START. Don't add or subtract level when you add processing (EQ, Compression), use faders to balance your mix.
Selig Audio, LLC

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MannequinRaces
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20 Nov 2018

elephant-ears wrote:
20 Nov 2018
Should I record my vocals before gain staging, or gain staging first then record vocals? I'm trying to figure out the order of doing things in mixing.
Record your vocals without clipping AND without being too soft. After that follow Selig's advice. I've been using it for some newer material and it's working really good. It has really got me away from the whole 'louder' equals better issue. My mixes are becoming more dynamic and there's plenty of headroom left for tweaks. Remember if you start with a good mix there won't be much you have to do when it comes time to master. A good article on mixing from the Props is here: https://www.propellerheads.com/blog/too ... ls-panning.

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elephant-ears
Posts: 16
Joined: 23 Apr 2018

20 Nov 2018

selig wrote:
20 Nov 2018
elephant-ears wrote:
20 Nov 2018

I watched your video twice. I'm too much of a beginner to understand most of it, but I want to. It makes sense to deal with everything first rather than come back to it later, which was what I hoped to figure out how to do anyway., so thanks.

I looked at all my raw levels and my faders are all in the -10 zone. Except my bass stays around the 0 and sometimes goes up to the 4 in the red. My master peak meter is around 12 but going up into the 8 because of the bass. I know I need to bring the bass down. Should I use the gain knob for that? I don't want to lose the fullness of it. I heard the I should use the gain knobs first so then I have more room to use my faders if I need to.
The important things to learn are that there are different modes for meters, so you can't just say "the meters say -10" and have communicated any real information. Also, when you say your "master peak meter is around 12", do you mean -12, and are you sure it's reading PEAK mode? These are not trivial matters, there can be as much as 20 dB or more difference between Peak and VU mode on meters, so we're not talking small fries here. ;)

Also important is that it doesn't necessarily matter where the faders are - faders and levels are two different (while related) things. It's like saying "I hardly pressed the gas pedal" when caught speeding - what's important is your speed, not where the gas pedal was!
What ultimately matters most is knowing what the audio level is, and in a digital system it matters where the PEAK levels are because they are what's going to clip (if anything clips). So I suggest using peak meters for checking signal levels in Reason, and sadly that means you cannot rely on the channel meters (next to the channel faders) because they always read VU (average).

One more point - in a floating point system such as Reason, you can turn the gain down or up anywhere and the actual tone of the audio will not change. That is UNLESS you are using a dynamics (compressor/limiter/expander/gate) or saturation/distortion effect. These types of effects can vary depending on how hot the signal is coming into them, because they respond to level changes. So if you adjust level BEFORE a compressor, not only will you reduce the level but you will also likely reduce the amount of compression (same as if you adjust the threshold). But if you adjust the level AFTER a compressor, all you change is level. This is why faders, being the last in the audio path in most cases (not counting busses) are the best place to adjust level when balancing a mix.

TLDR: for the most part (there are always exceptions) set your levels where you want them from the START. Don't add or subtract level when you add processing (EQ, Compression), use faders to balance your mix.
capture-20181120-170058.png
capture-20181120-170058.png (203.22 KiB) Viewed 1175 times
The meter on the far right is what I'm talking about. It's staying around the 12 but the bass is pushing it into the red zone as you can see. My meters next to the faders (channel meters?) are all around the -10 except the bass.

Are you saying I should look at the peak meter for everything and then use the faders if I need to adjust something? Is the VU meter of any use?

At this point I have no compression or effects or any EQ. I have too many questions to even know where to begin :roll:

Thanks for all the input :puf_bigsmile:

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selig
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Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

20 Nov 2018

elephant-ears wrote:
20 Nov 2018

capture-20181120-170058.png

The meter on the far right is what I'm talking about. It's staying around the 12 but the bass is pushing it into the red zone as you can see. My meters next to the faders (channel meters?) are all around the -10 except the bass.

Are you saying I should look at the peak meter for everything and then use the faders if I need to adjust something? Is the VU meter of any use?

At this point I have no compression or effects or any EQ. I have too many questions to even know where to begin :roll:

Thanks for all the input :puf_bigsmile:
Looks like you're using VU + Peak on the main meters, which shows peaks at 0 dBFS (and clipping on the right channel) and the VU at -9 dBFS. So you're basically running really hot levels on the output. If you're not using the Master Compressor or any mix channel inserts, this level should be at least 3-6 dB lower than it's showing at present.

OK, let's talk about the "red zone" - first, it's meaningless. It's an arbitrary setting you can change so there's no red at all if you like. You set it on the Big Meter using "VU Offset". So for now, ignore the colors completely.

Looking at the "BestBassINTRO" channel, since channels read in VU there's no way of knowing the peak level. But as your VU level is hitting around -9dBFS (again, ignoring the color and the VU offset, which is why 0dB appears a little over half way up the meters), it's very likely this one channel is running so hot as to clip the mix on it's own.

Remember, VU is an average level, peak is instantaneous. Using the car analogy again, it's like telling the officer who just pulled you over that you "averaged" well below the speed limit - however, all they are concerned with is that you PEAKED over the speed limit! Same for levels as regards clipping, it's the peak level that matters, not the average.

If you solo that bass channel, you should see peaks on the Big Meter around -12 dBFS. It may be difficult to imagine that lower levels are better, but simply turn up your speakers and you'll hear the sound as it should be! ;)

So: make sure the big meter and master meters are set to show VU + Peak or PEAK. Ignore the channel meters, ignore the color "red".
Selig Audio, LLC

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FlowerSoldier
Posts: 470
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

20 Nov 2018

selig wrote:
20 Nov 2018

Using the car analogy again, it's like telling the officer who just pulled you over that you "averaged" well below the speed limit - however, all they are concerned with is that you PEAKED over the speed limit! Same for levels as regards clipping, it's the peak level that matters, not the average.

[/quote]

I love this.

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Creativemind
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Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK

21 Nov 2018

FlowerSoldier wrote:
20 Nov 2018
selig wrote:
20 Nov 2018

Using the car analogy again, it's like telling the officer who just pulled you over that you "averaged" well below the speed limit - however, all they are concerned with is that you PEAKED over the speed limit! Same for levels as regards clipping, it's the peak level that matters, not the average.
I love this.
[/quote]

So the average is RMS right? so what's the function of RMS?
:reason:

Reason Studio's 11.3 / Cockos Reaper 6.82 / Cakewalk By Bandlab / Orion 8.6
http://soundcloud.com/creativemind75/iv ... soul-mix-3

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selig
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21 Nov 2018

From Wikipedia:
The root mean square (abbreviated RMS or rms) is defined as the square root of the mean square (the arithmetic mean of the squares of a set of numbers).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_mean_square

It is a term borrowed from electrical applications (For alternating electric current, RMS is equal to the value of the direct current that would produce the same average power dissipation in a resistive load) as a way to estimate the perceived volume of a sound, and is similar enough to VU that it is often substituted freely.

Also from Wikipedia:
The VU-meter (intentionally) "slows" measurement, averaging out peaks and troughs of short duration, and reflects more the perceived loudness of the material. The original VU meter is a passive electromechanical device, namely a 200 µA DC d'Arsonval movement ammeter fed from a full-wave copper-oxide rectifier mounted within the meter case. The mass of the needle causes a relatively slow response, which in effect integrates the signal, with a rise time of 300 ms.
Selig Audio, LLC

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Creativemind
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21 Nov 2018

Oh so VU is the average, sorry.
:reason:

Reason Studio's 11.3 / Cockos Reaper 6.82 / Cakewalk By Bandlab / Orion 8.6
http://soundcloud.com/creativemind75/iv ... soul-mix-3

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