Note generating bug in 10.1 and Propellerhead Players

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seqoi
Posts: 220
Joined: 12 Aug 2017

12 May 2018

Ok. I lost two days yesterday pulling my hair out, uninstalling and reinstalling drivers of my interface, cursing VST plugins, blaming myself and whatnot.

But i was wable to track down what is causing issues. I will post files, screenshots and description of issue which arrived in Reason 10.1.

Short description: All mine sessions build with 9.5 up to 10.1 which used Reason "Scales and Chords" and "Dual Arpeggio" after it sounded same. After update to 10.1 all my sessions sound different. I can't pinpoint is it Scales or Arpeggio causing this bug but someone else will be able to do it possibly or Propellerheads will chime in.

I noticed in numerous session i created since 9.5 up to 10.1 - when i load them in 10.1 some tracks where kinda out of sync (that was my initial subjective description). Yeah as i said above i was thinking maybe PDC was broken, maybe VST plugin is issue. Only to realize it's their players.

Here is a screenshot of a midi clips which i obtained by SEND TO TRACK function in 10.02 and then same function and same midi clip i obtained by loading same session in 10.01. These are then loaded in Ableton multiclip view for easier visual inspection.:
clip_inspection.jpg
clip visual
clip_inspection.jpg (248.66 KiB) Viewed 1718 times
:(

As you can see notes (blue notes are 10_1 version) have different timings (they start earlier) which could possibly pass as unnoticed but not only that - 10_1 is generating new notes which were not there in all previous Reason releases. And because of this i had that weird feeling something is off.

I am posting audio examples so you can hear result. Note that sequence is just dummy for purpose of inspecting this issue.

You can listen how it sounded up to version 10.1 and how it is sounding in version 10.1 - there is a very serious difference to a track because of timing and new notes generated.

edit: for some reason i can not post zipped wav files?? They are only 2.4 mb big?? Here i am posting zipped midi files..
midi.zip
(1.27 KiB) Downloaded 18 times
I hope they will be able to fix that so all session created up to 10.1 will sound the same...


edit: here is a screenshot of a routing example causing issue. You can see PH Players setup and there's Matrix below Maelstrom triggering notes. If anyone tell me it's wrong setup and i should not use it like that yeah i like to experiment and load/spit out weird notes. It's the Reason strength over everyone else. This was the purpose of Reason, Players and Reason itself - to be different right. And it worked up to point 10.1
patch.jpg
patch.jpg (202.35 KiB) Viewed 1735 times

Ostermilk
Posts: 1437
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

12 May 2018

I shall attempt to reproduce.

Meanwhile if your findings are right then it sounds like it's worth reporting to the Devs

seqoi
Posts: 220
Joined: 12 Aug 2017

13 May 2018

Thanks. I will try to reach developer.

I see in their changelog today that they said something about "improving Player timing" in 10.1. That could explain different timing. MAybe new timings are more accurate or something. Like i said i would not spot new timings in a session since they are so subtle.

But new notes being generated is definitely spotted and is making track sound different.

It is very easy to reproduce plus if you compare two midi files i just posted you will see for yourself. One midi file is from 10_02 - other is 10_1.

My another guess is that now when players have different and improved timings maybe they attenuate Arp player in a different way so Arp is spitting out different and new notes.

I was thinking about possible solution and i came up with idea to uninstall Reason 10.1 and install 10.2. Export all players to track via SEND TO TRACKS. It will take me two-three days to track down all my sessions but it will at least provide me same sequences i build up up to 10.1.

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chimp_spanner
Posts: 1829
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

13 May 2018

Yeah I think you may have answered your own question - I actually used to find the timing of dual arp a little weird/undesirable. So it's possible that you were writing with a bug, and now the bug is gone your songs don't sound the same. Kind of unfortunate for you, given that you'll have to go back in and print it all to track!! But hopefully should be okay going forward. I will, however, do a little test myself and see if anything weird comes up.
Enjoy!

http://www.paulortizmusic.com

HP Envy J130ea | i7 4700MQ | 12 GB DDR | 2GB GeForce 740m | Komplete Audio 6

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chimp_spanner
Posts: 1829
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

13 May 2018

Hm, well maybe I'm not looking for the right thing - it appears that Dual Arp prints what is played (i.e. no extra notes). Tried it with a Scales and Chords going into Dual Arp. So yeah my guess is that you were unknowingly working with/around a bug.
Enjoy!

http://www.paulortizmusic.com

HP Envy J130ea | i7 4700MQ | 12 GB DDR | 2GB GeForce 740m | Komplete Audio 6

stygian_corvidae
Posts: 3
Joined: 16 May 2018

16 May 2018

I think i am having the same sort of issue. I have relied heavily on players for must of my tracks with reason 10 and they all just sound broken in 10.1 and its always the lanes where i have used players (mostly scales and chords, and arpreggio).
I am not skilled enough to even know where to start trying to fix this. I have opened a ticket, but couldn't upload a song file to demo what i was talking about.
Does anyone know where i can download plain old version 10 so i can try and export the lanes that are broken to at least keep a working copy of my tracks for 10.1?

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MattiasHG
Posts: 183
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

16 May 2018

stygian_corvidae wrote:
16 May 2018
I think i am having the same sort of issue. I have relied heavily on players for must of my tracks with reason 10 and they all just sound broken in 10.1 and its always the lanes where i have used players (mostly scales and chords, and arpreggio).
I am not skilled enough to even know where to start trying to fix this. I have opened a ticket, but couldn't upload a song file to demo what i was talking about.
Does anyone know where i can download plain old version 10 so i can try and export the lanes that are broken to at least keep a working copy of my tracks for 10.1?
It basically boils down to us fixing some timing bugs in 10.1. Previously, Dual Arpeggio would interpret notes as legato when they weren't and thus not restart the pattern properly. With the new improved resolution to timing, it will now properly see new "note on" messages. If this is the cause of your problem (which I suspect), you should be able to get the same result by simply overlapping the incoming note a bit to make it play legato.

Makes sense?

There seems to be one more thing with the sorting of notes that happen simultaneously, we're looking in to that. If you have a song where you're experiencing issues, please send it to us via support.

madmacman
Posts: 421
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

16 May 2018

MattiasHG wrote:
16 May 2018
It basically boils down to us fixing some timing bugs in 10.1.
Which means: the bug only affects people on the transition from 10.0.x to 10.1? If I would start an all-new project on 10.1, I wouldn't recognize any "odd" behavior at all. Right?

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friday
Posts: 107
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

16 May 2018

If it is possible to install 10.1 & 10.02 at the same time, then i recommend to send all the note to track in 10.02 an then open it in 10.1 , otherwise it will be a mess i think???!?

(or note to track in 10.02 and export midi)

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MattiasHG
Posts: 183
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

16 May 2018

madmacman wrote:
16 May 2018
MattiasHG wrote:
16 May 2018
It basically boils down to us fixing some timing bugs in 10.1.
Which means: the bug only affects people on the transition from 10.0.x to 10.1? If I would start an all-new project on 10.1, I wouldn't recognize any "odd" behavior at all. Right?
Yes, that's correct regarding the legato. You'd actually recognize more correct behavior!

However, the "note order when played simultaneously" might be something we have to quick fix. Basically we have an internal ordering of note events that happen at exactly the same time in the sequencer, that ordering is not the same when playing exactly at the same time or receiving MIDI from another Player exactly at the same time. This doesn't affect most normal usage - what you hear is what you get - but we'd likely want to sort that out so you get predictable and identical results from any source.

stygian_corvidae
Posts: 3
Joined: 16 May 2018

16 May 2018

friday wrote:
16 May 2018
If it is possible to install 10.1 & 10.02 at the same time, then i recommend to send all the note to track in 10.02 an then open it in 10.1 , otherwise it will be a mess i think???!?

(or note to track in 10.02 and export midi)
I would love to do this. Does anyone know where i can download the installer for 10.02 as I don't have it anymore :'(

stygian_corvidae
Posts: 3
Joined: 16 May 2018

16 May 2018

MattiasHG wrote:
16 May 2018
stygian_corvidae wrote:
16 May 2018
I think i am having the same sort of issue. I have relied heavily on players for must of my tracks with reason 10 and they all just sound broken in 10.1 and its always the lanes where i have used players (mostly scales and chords, and arpreggio).
I am not skilled enough to even know where to start trying to fix this. I have opened a ticket, but couldn't upload a song file to demo what i was talking about.
Does anyone know where i can download plain old version 10 so i can try and export the lanes that are broken to at least keep a working copy of my tracks for 10.1?
It basically boils down to us fixing some timing bugs in 10.1. Previously, Dual Arpeggio would interpret notes as legato when they weren't and thus not restart the pattern properly. With the new improved resolution to timing, it will now properly see new "note on" messages. If this is the cause of your problem (which I suspect), you should be able to get the same result by simply overlapping the incoming note a bit to make it play legato.

Makes sense?

There seems to be one more thing with the sorting of notes that happen simultaneously, we're looking in to that. If you have a song where you're experiencing issues, please send it to us via support.
Thank you for the response MattiasHG. Appreciated. I have tried to upload a song to my ticket in support but the upload limit is 20Mb and the song in question where the problem is most obvious is 22Mb. I did attach a onedrive link to the ticket and hope thats ok.

Also relevant xkcd:
https://xkcd.com/1172/

RandomSkratch
Posts: 384
Joined: 10 May 2016

17 May 2018

stygian_corvidae wrote:
16 May 2018
Also relevant xkcd:
https://xkcd.com/1172/
OMG that's hilarious! :lol:

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jayhosking
Posts: 492
Joined: 28 Nov 2016
Contact:

01 Jun 2018

Hey, team. I've had a recurrent issue and I thought I'd check to see if anybody else is dealing with the same thing.

In both cases, I'm running a Legend through a dual arpeggiator player just to run straight eighth notes (bass tracks). In both cases, I started the track a while back and they worked just fine until the most recent update. Now both tracks fail to catch the first note in a bar, i.e. they're missing the first note that they're supposed to be playing. I've drawn in the notes, so it's not an issue of playing, and like I said, these songs worked just fine before.

I didn't notice an update to the Legend last time I synched with the Legend (just checked Authorizer, and nope, no updates). So I doubt it's a Legend issue. Edit: Strange thing is, though, that when I switch from Legend to another synth (e.g. Europa), the dual arp player plays all the eighth notes, BUT the first note of each bar is the note from the previous bar, not the new note. So it's definitely not Legend (please ignore that in the subject line).

Any idea what's going on here? Some sort of update to players or the arpeggiator that I wasn't aware of? It renders the arp useless if you draw in perfect notes and it screws up the arpeggiation, though. Any help would be much appreciated!

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Loque
Posts: 3858
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

01 Jun 2018

I think i read a post hear describing this. The is a big or a change in the Dual Arp. I have some other problems too that I actual investigate.
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

seqoi
Posts: 220
Joined: 12 Aug 2017

01 Jun 2018

jayhosking wrote:
01 Jun 2018

Any idea what's going on here? Some sort of update to players or the arpeggiator that I wasn't aware of? It renders the arp useless if you draw in perfect notes and it screws up the arpeggiation, though. Any help would be much appreciated!
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7506953

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jayhosking
Posts: 492
Joined: 28 Nov 2016
Contact:

01 Jun 2018

Ah. Thanks, sequoi! Thing is, I can't imagine how this would be a feature? I just put a bunch of perfectly aligned whole-bar notes one after the other, and the first note of the arpeggio is cut off. When I print the arpeggio to MIDI, you can clearly see that the first note is cut wrong.

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miscend
Posts: 1029
Joined: 09 Feb 2015

05 Jun 2018

How about a toggle switch to revert to the old behaviour?

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chimp_spanner
Posts: 1829
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

12 Jun 2018

As in the title, anyone else getting this? From what I can remember it was always a liiiittle bit flaky but this seems to be way happening way more than it doesn't.
Enjoy!

http://www.paulortizmusic.com

HP Envy J130ea | i7 4700MQ | 12 GB DDR | 2GB GeForce 740m | Komplete Audio 6

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tiker01
Posts: 1175
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

12 Jun 2018

It is a know issue and fix is on the way. There is a topic here already viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7506953&p=392891#p392891
    
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djs
Posts: 34
Joined: 29 Jan 2018

24 Aug 2018

Was this issue ever fixed? If not, will it be fixed in the 10.2 update?

seqoi
Posts: 220
Joined: 12 Aug 2017

25 Aug 2018

As far as i understand (i am OP and i created this thread and reported issue) this won't be fixed because there is nothing to be fixed. The thing is - it was wrongly coded at start and only later they fixed it. So we who used these devices extensively and obsessively in our racks we noticed issue with later updates (read devices now generate different note sets) but as i understand it this behavior is now "correct" one and there is nothing to be fixed.

Your only solution is what i pointed out - install older version, render to midi clip and that's it. I did that, and moved to other projects (and to newer Reason versions)

Someone correct me if i am wrong regarding "fix".

djs
Posts: 34
Joined: 29 Jan 2018

25 Aug 2018

jayhosking wrote:
01 Jun 2018
Hey, team. I've had a recurrent issue and I thought I'd check to see if anybody else is dealing with the same thing.

In both cases, I'm running a Legend through a dual arpeggiator player just to run straight eighth notes (bass tracks). In both cases, I started the track a while back and they worked just fine until the most recent update. Now both tracks fail to catch the first note in a bar, i.e. they're missing the first note that they're supposed to be playing. I've drawn in the notes, so it's not an issue of playing, and like I said, these songs worked just fine before.

I didn't notice an update to the Legend last time I synched with the Legend (just checked Authorizer, and nope, no updates). So I doubt it's a Legend issue. Edit: Strange thing is, though, that when I switch from Legend to another synth (e.g. Europa), the dual arp player plays all the eighth notes, BUT the first note of each bar is the note from the previous bar, not the new note. So it's definitely not Legend (please ignore that in the subject line).

Any idea what's going on here? Some sort of update to players or the arpeggiator that I wasn't aware of? It renders the arp useless if you draw in perfect notes and it screws up the arpeggiation, though. Any help would be much appreciated!
I still experience this. The first note of the bar cutting off.

djs
Posts: 34
Joined: 29 Jan 2018

30 Aug 2018

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