Reason 10 announced!

[hurricane]

Good grief no. Grain makes PadShop Pro look downright antiquated. PadShop's envelopes are as basic as they come - Grain has far more advanced envelopes. Grain is easier to work in, and frankly - looks a lot better than PadShop. Grain has better pitch analysis, IMHO. Grain has 3 LFO's versus PadShop's 2. Grain has a sub osc. Grain's playback algorithm section is far more advanced than PadShop Pro.

Well owning both (yes I will be updating), I can say that I agree with what you're saying, but something you don't mention is the actual sound quality of each synth, and in my opinion, Padshop has a richer, more "hi-fi" sound. Now, it could be the preset & sound design, but it's clear to me when comparing both side by side, that Padshop "sounds better". Subjective? Of course. But flip flop between them and hear for yourself. (But I don't expect you to give it a fair and unbiased testing, so whatever...)

[Psuper]

I've been looking around at Grain alternatives, as much as I truly enjoy using Grain (primarily because I really *want* to enjoy it), my upgrade money may better spent elsewhere: another suite or synth that offers similar capabilities and perhaps much more.

I'm building a new DAW around the recent i7-8700K. I'm at the 'display' point of things, where I'm deciding to either go 4k with Reaper, or stick with Reason Clunk GUI 1.0 on 1440p. I simply cannot justify Reason being my DAW of choice when faced with it's horrible GUI and scaling in a new rig at any resolution.

[EnochLight]

Good grief no. Grain makes PadShop Pro look downright antiquated. PadShop's envelopes are as basic as they come - Grain has far more advanced envelopes. Grain is easier to work in, and frankly - looks a lot better than PadShop. Grain has better pitch analysis, IMHO. Grain has 3 LFO's versus PadShop's 2. Grain has a sub osc. Grain's playback algorithm section is far more advanced than PadShop Pro.

Well owning both (yes I will be updating), I can say that I agree with what you're saying, but something you don't mention is the actual sound quality of each synth, and in my opinion, Padshop has a richer, more "hi-fi" sound. Now, it could be the preset & sound design, but it's clear to me when comparing both side by side, that Padshop "sounds better". Subjective? Of course. But flip flop between them and hear for yourself. (But I don't expect you to give it a fair and unbiased testing, so whatever...)

About as fair and unbiased as your testing, I would imagine. That said, I wouldn't disagree with your take that PadShop sounds "hi-fi", or even crisper (if that is such a thing). But at the end of the day, I prefer Grain's sound quality. YMMV.

[hurricane]

That said, I wouldn't disagree with your take that PadShop sounds "hi-fi", or even crisper (if that is such a thing). But at the end of the day, I prefer Grain's sound quality. YMMV.

Well of course you do, WHAT A SHOCKER.

And "crisper" is your word but yeah, that's a good description for Padshop - I am glad you prefer the less-crisp sound of Grain.

[lakinlakin]

I've been looking around at Grain alternatives, as much as I truly enjoy using Grain (primarily because I really *want* to enjoy it), my upgrade money may better spent elsewhere: another suite or synth that offers similar capabilities and perhaps much more.

I'm building a new DAW around the recent i7-8700K. I'm at the 'display' point of things, where I'm deciding to either go 4k with Reaper, or stick with Reason Clunk GUI 1.0 on 1440p. I simply cannot justify Reason being my DAW of choice when faced with it's horrible GUI and scaling in a new rig at any resolution.

I will buy Reason 10 for Europa and Grain, but I really hope the UI is going to be brought up to date in the next release (?? 10.5). As it stands Reasons UI is a real PITA on a modern display (i.e. any monitor you bought in the last 10 years).

Even the v10 teaser videos released by Propellerhead had Ryan asking Mattias to zoom in so we could see things better (see the Europa teaser video at 9:50 for one example). I can't zoom in like that on my Win 10 PC - wish I could.

[Marc64]

In both Padshop and Grain it's all about the sound sources and patch design.
I like Padshop but Grain is a very very much welcome synth in Reason.

[EnochLight]

Well of course you do, WHAT A SHOCKER.

That's adorable.

And "crisper" is your word but yeah, that's a good description for Padshop - I am glad you prefer the less-crisp sound of Grain.

Sure. It's all subjective, right?

Even the v10 teaser videos released by Propellerhead had Ryan asking Mattias to zoom in so we could see things better (see the Europa teaser video at 9:50 for one example). I can't zoom in like that on my Win 10 PC - wish I could.

You can to an extent via the OS, on Windows 10. Hold in your Windows key and hit the "+" button. Hit that combo one or two times to zoom in on your cursor. Hit the Windows key and the "-" button to zoom out. It's a work around, for sure, but all we can do for now. Aside from enlarging your Scale & Layout setting in Windows.

[pquenin]

The MULAB MUX VST has a module called "grain player". See this video :

[Equalizer]

I personally prefer Ominsphere's granular synthesis:

[EnochLight]

I personally prefer Ominsphere's granular synthesis:

I'm glad you posted this, because I've long been looking at picking up Omnisphere 2. Is there another view in the granular section? Like, can you view the actual waveform at all?

And I also have to ask - and this is more or less directed at all Omnisphere users out there... how the hell do you guys deal with that GUI/UX? It seriously looks like one of the most ugliest/dated in the industry, IMHO (and this is coming from a guy who batch about Reason's dated bitmaps and lack of high-def zoom all of the time). I've said this before and I'll say it again: it's like Spectrasonics drank too many Scott Forstall skeuomorphism tonics and threw up an early 2000's OSX-inspired GUI/UX all over a movie theater's carpet.

I really hope Omnisphere 3 is on the horizon soon, and they update/modernize that GUI/UX. I just can't bring myself to drop $450-$500 USD on the thing right now. Though, depending on the weekend and the amount of cocktails I've had... I might.

[JacobiusWrex]

I personally prefer Ominsphere's granular synthesis:

I'm glad you posted this, because I've long been looking at picking up Omnisphere 2. Is there another view in the granular section? Like, can you view the actual waveform at all?

And I also have to ask - and this is more or less directed at all Omnisphere users out there... how the hell do you guys deal with that GUI/UX? It seriously looks like one of the most ugliest/dated in the industry, IMHO (and this is coming from a guy who batch about Reason's dated bitmaps and lack of high-def zoom all of the time). I've said this before and I'll say it again: it's like Spectrasonics drank too many Scott Forstall skeuomorphism tonics and threw up an early 2000's OSX-inspired GUI/UX all over a movie theater's carpet.

I really hope Omnisphere 3 is on the horizon soon, and they update/modernize that GUI/UX. I just can't bring myself to drop $450-$500 USD on the thing right now. Though, depending on the weekend and the amount of cocktails I've had... I might. [emoji1] [emoji1] [emoji1]

LOL

I agree totally about the gui being uninspiring.
I do really like the look of Europa and I really think it's cool that there is an advanced modern synth in the rack even if it's not as gnarly as serum or omnisphere.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Creativemind]

PadShop's envelopes are as basic as they come - Grain has far more advanced envelopes.

and frankly - looks a lot better than PadShop.

I bet the envelopes aren't exponential envelopes though? they don't look it. Only really learnt what these are recently and now realise...no synth should not have exponential envelopes. As seen here on (I think) Studio One. Also, there's a H (Hold) in soms ADSR's, so AHDSR.

I disagree that Grain looks better than Padshop Pro as well. Not debating on it's features / functionality however, that I wouldn't know. I did just read though on a thread on Gearslutz that (I having not used Padshop I wouldn't know if this is true or not) that Padshop doesn't allow the loading of your own samples into it?

[Creativemind]

I've been looking around at Grain alternatives, as much as I truly enjoy using Grain (primarily because I really *want* to enjoy it), my upgrade money may better spent elsewhere: another suite or synth that offers similar capabilities and perhaps much more.

And what did you find then?

[Creativemind]

The MULAB MUX VST has a module called "grain player". See this video :

That sounds incredible man.

[Creativemind]

I personally prefer Ominsphere's granular synthesis:

This sounds incredible too. How does Grain compete with the 2 Granular Synths mentioned then, the MuLab one and the Omnisphere?

[EnochLight]

I bet the envelopes aren't exponential envelopes though? they don't look it. Only really learnt what these are recently and now realise...no synth should not have exponential envelopes. As seen here on (I think) Studio One. Also, there's a H (Hold) in soms ADSR's, so AHDSR.

youtu.be/k3BxoBVK4mY?t=67

That's Bitwig, actually. But no - judging from what I've seen, neither Grain nor Europa's envelopes appear to be exponential. Still - they're far better than PadShop's.

I disagree that Grain looks better than Padshop Pro as well. Not debating on it's features / functionality however, that I wouldn't know.

I hear you - I suppose that's all in the eye of the beholder.

I did just read though on a thread on Gearslutz that (I having not used Padshop I wouldn't know if this is true or not) that Padshop doesn't allow the loading of your own samples into it?

Yes, it does.

[EnochLight]

How does Grain compete with the 2 Granular Synths mentioned then, the MuLab one and the Omnisphere?

With Omnisphere, it's not really a fair comparison as its granular component is just but one small component of a far larger synth/rompler. It would be more fair to compare Reason's Grain, Europa, NNXT, and Thor wrapped in a Combi with several Players and effects to Omnisphere (in which case, the Omnisphere fans will scream Omnisphere is better, and the Reason fans will scream Reason's Combi+whatever is better).

I don't own PadShop Pro, but I've got the demo. I still prefer Grain. YMMV. I've never tried MuLab, though.

[Creativemind]

That's Bitwig, actually.

Yes, it does.

Knew it was Studio One or Bitwig and thought it might do, would be a lame granular synth without being able to load your own samples into it.

[EnochLight]

That's Bitwig, actually.

Knew it was Studio One or Bitwig and thought it might do, would be a lame granular synth without being able to load your own samples into it.

Your quote format above is absolutely mutilated.

[Psuper]

I've been looking around at Grain alternatives, as much as I truly enjoy using Grain (primarily because I really *want* to enjoy it), my upgrade money may better spent elsewhere: another suite or synth that offers similar capabilities and perhaps much more.

And what did you find then?

There's plenty of alternatives. I just don't want to give up on Reason.

Not that I wouldn't come back -- should propellerhead ever address the horrible non-scaling clunky gui, it would continue to be my DAW of choice. However I feel they may never update it in ways that really matter -- it's something they simply seemed to have deaf ears on. Or perhaps they don't have, nor want to hire, the expertise.

Which is understandable if you know Propellerheads history.: Propellerheads themselves never saw Reason as a "DAW" for many years, maybe even still surprisingly.

It was 10+ years before adding the ability to record live audio: a basic requirement for any DAW. Then they got rolling and stated doing lots of the right stuff - expanding midi capabilities, improving the backend, adding options, creating the RE so they could sell theirs and others racks inside the app (which may have been better served doing VST right then, but that's another story).

Regardless they continued focusing on features and performance, becoming"DAW-like" with each iteration... Until v.10. When suddenly they opt to flagship a couple REs as THE v.10 "upgrade".

Regardless of how anyone feels about this "biggest upgrade ever" update, Propellerheads alone will live or die by their decisions. They're not paying us for opinions. All we can do is tell them how it is from our perspective and carry on making music in the way that's most enjoyable.

I'm still on the fence about it as I'm sure many of us our.

It's not about the money, I can afford what I want. It's eliminating the bottleneck of my current music making process, and for me that bottleneck is Reasons GUI. It's certainly not a lack of synths or samples.

[Equalizer]

As hardcore Reason user, I personally do not find value in the R10 update. If I didn't already own Omnisphere, I would rather put that $129 towards it. It's $426 over at JRR shop. Minus your $129 R10 upgrade it's now $297. If you're an experienced producer and own VST plugins you won't be missing ANYTHING if you wait for R11. I'd even say if you're an inexperienced producer but still own VST plugins, you STILL won't be missing anything if you wait for R11. R10 will be EXACTLY like R9.5 for you, except that you'll have 2 new synths and lots of drum samples. But you do realize that when you install a new VST synth or download more drum samples, that your Reason experience hasn't really changed, and those synths didn't magically make your production skills better. You're just sitting there messing around with presets. R10 will be more of the same for you. There's no excitement, there are no new features to explore, no enhancements to anything, nothing is a surprise (thanks to the beta) - OMG I just realized how shitty this major update is to a seasoned Reason user. But speak for myself right?

Riiiiiiiight........

[avasopht]

There's no excitement, there are no new features to explore, no enhancements to anything, nothing is a surprise (thanks to the beta) - OMG I just realized how shitty this major update is to a seasoned Reason user. But speak for myself right?

Riiiiiiiight........

As a seasoned Reason user I can say I have mixed feelings about it.

Even without VSTs I can achieve pretty much everything I want, and I have pretty much all the sounds I could ever need. So I'm content with Reason right now as it is.

Europa and Grain are nice editions, and I'm sure I'll have plenty of fun with them. But it's not as much of a leap as Reason 3 and 4 was with combinators and Thor. That blew the lid over the whole application. Record took it to a next level with the SSL and audio recording.

That being said, Reason 10 will give me moar power, and I will use it to the best of my ability. Plus I'm quite confident there are more exciting upgrades coming to Reason 10 (and it may even launch with more new features).

[EnochLight]

Regardless they continued focusing on features and performance, becoming"DAW-like" with each iteration... Until v.10. When suddenly they opt to flagship a couple REs as THE v.10 "upgrade".

Regardless of how anyone feels about this "biggest upgrade ever" update, Propellerheads alone will live or die by their decisions.

I agree, this should not be advertised as the "Biggest Update Ever". It should be advertised as the "Biggest Content Upgrade Ever", though I doubt that change in wording would sway the people who take issue with this one.

It's not about the money, I can afford what I want. It's eliminating the bottleneck of my current music making process, and for me that bottleneck is Reasons GUI. It's certainly not a lack of synths or samples.

You know, after looking at your signature, I have to ask: what part is the bottleneck for you? Is it just the lack of high def zoom? Or do you want the actual workflow completely re-invented? Because Reason's workflow is its USP. Changing it would make it not Reason.

Reason 2006: GUI 1.0. Clunky on 1024x768

Really? I mean, did you even use Reason 3.0 in 2006? Because I did, and the GUI/UX at the time was perfectly sized for most monitors in that day in age.

Reason 2014: GUI 1.0 Clunky on 1920x1080

You're not completely wrong here, though I'm not sure I'd call it clunky. It's just the lack of high def zoom which makes things awkward at times.

Reason 2017-????: GUI 1.0 Clunky yet too small on 4k.

Totally with you here. Reason on 4K/Retina displays is nearly unusable. Thankfully, less than 6% of worldwide computers use OSX, but for those other 88% Windows users who are on 4K monitors (as few as they are), it's a pain in the ass. It's a pain in the ass for everyone. Thankfully, there's workarounds though.

[Psuper]

You know, after looking at your signature, I have to ask: what part is the bottleneck for you? Is it just the lack of high def zoom? Or do you want the actual workflow completely re-invented? Because Reason's workflow is its USP. Changing it would make it not Reason.

Really? I mean, did you even use Reason 3.0 in 2006? Because I did, and the GUI/UX at the time was perfectly sized for most monitors in that day in age.

Scaling it it's main problem, the racks should scale to the size of the window. There's other alternatives, but this is pretty easy to do these days no fancy dev work needed. Just scaling bitmaps to a window. It's more tricky with a DAW, there's more elements to Reason and you're looking at primarily scaling the left and right of the rack so you have lots of up/down space.

Reasons interface was designed as a proprietary virtual instrument and effects rack, not a DAW. And that interface has remained the same as it slowly became a DAW.

And it certainly wasn't perfectly sized in on 1024 x 768 - it looked like a GIANT on most, because it was. I'll never forget opening Reason for the first time and thinking HOLY #@%@ these racks look huge. We couldn't put the full rack on the left without overlapping the mix or seq window on the right, which was a major issue for me. We're constantly playing musical chairs with windows and sizing it's just a chore for most resolutions, and is insanely tiny on the 4k road ahead.

Reason repeatedly reminds us of it's GUI. Never crossed my mind in Cakewalk, everything scaled the way I needed it, still does, most DAWs do. All DAWs need that GUI transparency and smooth workflow - Reason still lacks this. Reason is by far the most fun when just tinkering and messing around with the racks, but the worst when getting serious about making music

I used virtually everything available in 2006 I could get my hands on. I bought Reason 3 soon after it was released and absolutely enjoyed the heck out of it and do to this day. But not as a DAW. It wasn't a DAW then as we all know.

Cakewalk was my DAW then, in addition with hardware over the years starting back with the CZ1, Poly 800, M1, K2000, then primarily midi and PC. All enthusiast stuff mind you, but I was in the thick of audio production for 20 years by 2006. I want Reason to mature, and it's GUI is still an infant.

[EnochLight]

You know, after looking at your signature, I have to ask: what part is the bottleneck for you? Is it just the lack of high def zoom? Or do you want the actual workflow completely re-invented? Because Reason's workflow is its USP. Changing it would make it not Reason.

Really? I mean, did you even use Reason 3.0 in 2006? Because I did, and the GUI/UX at the time was perfectly sized for most monitors in that day in age.

Scaling it it's main problem, the racks should scale to the size of the window. There's other alternatives, but this is pretty easy to do these days no fancy dev work needed. Just scaling bitmaps to a window. It's more tricky with a DAW, there's more elements to Reason and you're looking at primarily scaling the left and right of the rack so you have lots of up/down space.

Reasons interface was designed as a proprietary virtual instrument and effects rack, not a DAW. And that interface has remained the same as it slowly became a DAW.

And it certainly wasn't perfectly sized in on 1024 x 768 - it looked like a GIANT on most, because it was. I'll never forget opening Reason for the first time and thinking HOLY #@%@ these racks look huge. We couldn't put the full rack on the left without overlapping the mix or seq window on the right, which was a major issue for me. We're constantly playing musical chairs with windows and sizing it's just a chore for most resolutions, and is insanely tiny on the 4k road ahead.

Reason repeatedly reminds us of it's GUI. Never crossed my mind in Cakewalk, everything scaled the way I needed it, still does, most DAWs do. All DAWs need that GUI transparency and smooth workflow - Reason still lacks this. Reason is by far the most fun when just tinkering and messing around with the racks, but the worst when getting serious about making music

I used virtually everything available in 2006 I could get my hands on. I bought Reason 3 soon after it was released and absolutely enjoyed the heck out of it and do to this day. But not as a DAW. It wasn't a DAW then as we all know.

Cakewalk was my DAW then, in addition with hardware over the years starting back with the CZ1, Poly 800, M1, K2000, then primarily midi and PC. All enthusiast stuff mind you, but I was in the thick of audio production for 20 years by 2006. I want Reason to mature, and it's GUI is still an infant.

OK, so your main issue is just with resizing the GUI/UX (and rack, sequencer). Cool - I can get behind that. I just wanted to clarify that its workflow is absolutely paramount to its uniqueness. Part of the issue is HOW this is all to be managed. The aspect ratio of the rack devices doesn't change regardless of monitor resolution, so are we just asking for the ability to zoom via the DAW (instead of the OS)?