Shame on you PH!

[chk071]

You can't use 3.0 vst's inside a 2.0 vst only daw either.

Not the best argument, considering that most devs completely ignore VST3 since pretty much its beginning.

Anyway, i do get the rest of your points, but, again, it's still very disapointing for users of former Reason versions.

[selig]

PH really can't auto detect the reason version I have and sell me the last compatible version? So now I'm pissed feeling cut off from a market that prides itself on continuous support. How have developers not made any statements supporting their customers who would like to purchase their product who aren't on 9.2? Don't you want a bigger the piece of the pie?

Where was the warning? If I knew I couldn't purchase Expanse after the update, I would have done something to make the purchase even though the money wasn't available at the time. Now I'm left with a $129 "pay wall" to have to purchase exclusive RE's from the market. It never bothered me before, but the lack of transparency from PH really hurts their customers.

After reading the whole 3 pages I think we need to focus on what's originally posted (see above).

What TS wants is you purchase an RE, and have the authorizer install the latest compatible version for his/her reason version (just like users who purchased the re before the upgrade/update).
That request sounds legit to me, not massively entitled. It is just brought a little bit naggy.

The problem is that you would need a whole lot of warnings which confuses users easily.
For instance, re comes out, compatible with version 6.5
Then SDK 2.0 comes out, giving the dev tools to make it even better. The shops gets a warning ("last version only compatibel with R7.0 or something"), just like Expanse has https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/ ... nthesizer/
SDK 2.5 comes out, you need Reason 9.0. Again some upgrades and only newer and updated users can use it.
At reason 12, SDK 4 comes out (just to guess a number), again improvements are made etc etc.

But now you have 4 different RE versions online, to inform users you would need to explain them all to them on the shop page. ("when R6.5 you only get this, when R8 you only get this etc etc").
Where do you draw the line ? How long will you support older versions for purchase ? The system must be as idiot proof as possible within its backend complexity.
We already have older version downloads for older reasonversions if you already have the license in your account, so that's not a problem.
Also version breaking updates/grades get filtered out by the system, if i understand correctly.
In a way you could say the system is pretty good already. It is hard but the line needs to be drawn somewhere.

Concerning TS, R8 is 2,5 years old, it isn't weird to need to upgrade to something newer by now. And R9 came out almost a year ago.
BUT (<---- important) I do understand your point, since other older version users can still re-install the older expanse/parsec/whatever.
I also understand that it isn't worth it to change the system as it is now, just for a few users who want to spend 250 euro's on 2 synths but not 129 euro's on an upgrade.

I do respect normen for his decision to not bugfix the gui thing so older version users can still buy and use his great VMG re (one of my favs )

Did I sum everything up right ?

As I read it, the main problem is that if he had known in time he could have saved $129, so it's not like a choice between $250 or $129 - it's both. And he has no alternative at this point, since there isn't support in the store to allow devs to provide an upgrade path across multiple products (but I wish there was, because it would solve this problem (and also could allow things like "complete my bundle" if implemented correctly).

As for "supporting" older versions, all you need to do is keep it available online. Nothing more would be required to "support" an older version (that I'm aware of, at least nothing big/serious). Plus, you wouldn't HAVE to keep the old versions, it would be up to the dev to choose.

[Bonkhead]

Agreed, but I "completed" my kiloheartz bundle when i upgraded it with the transient shaper so you suggest bundleling solo bought RE's to a bundle to complete ?
The missing info on not being able to get the last working RE version for your reason version is a thing indeed. Not sure where to put the responsibility for that.
I do agree having more options for dev's isn't a bad thing so people like TS can be helped in the shop, but seeing what kind of outrage people in general can have over products I think it would be weird that people can't see what they buy if they get an outdated RE version for the same price because they didn't upgrade. You wil need to make very sure new users understand which version gets downloaded for their older Reason version. I think it has some legal issues too (not knowing what you are buying).

Edit: I can already picture someone being mad for getting a RE which is more expensive than the older version, do to a paid upgrade, but only being able to use the old version for not upgrading Reason. Something like this:
"It was 50 euro's before, now 75 for the same thing !!!! They want me to pay 129 euro's first to get use of the 25 extra value which i already paid for !!! TRIGGERED " (insert distorted mic breathing sounds)

I know this is not what TS is saying or will do, he understands this.

[Luxuria]

This will be my last word on this topic since it's turned into the classic discussion cycle of death where we all beat the dead horse and start theorizing and asking what ifs.

I love Reason. It has given me the opportunity to create music, spend countless hours just messing around for fun, and keep me sane at times as my main tool for my hobby. I may not have agreed with the companies direction in some versions, but I always stuck around rooting for the best out of them.

So yes I took this to heart and am emotional about it. Does that make me entitled or seen as causing drama? I hope not because that isn't what this was about.

I'd just like to say that it would have been really nice if we got a notice/warning from PH that this update would alter the RE shop for users of older versions.

I've voiced my concerns through email to those who might be able to help me and anyone else in my situation. Really hoping they implement my idea of sending an email like they do with Sale Events to inform the community on future chances that impact the community and Blamsoft possibly offering a "Last Call" promotion for their products to be bought pre SDK upgrade.

[FlowerSoldier]

I can see where a lot of people are making a lot of very valid points.

I'm sure if Props made legacy versions of their REs available for older versions, they would make money. So would the Devs.

UAD offers legacy versions of their plugins....It actually creates an incentive to purchase their new versions. Not sure why Props would leave money on the table like that. Maybe they could pursue that business model.

Having said that, it doesn't seem reasonable (no pun) to expect full SDK functionality from an older Reason version. E.g. I don't complain about not having all the filters from Photoshop 10 in PS 5....they are completely different programs with different architecture.

Now, if the Props added SDK 2.5 functionality to some earlier versions...that would be a great example of Customer Appreciation. Also, everyone would make money selling more REs.

I don't know what the Props decision making process is like...if they cannot implement SDK 2.5 in earlier versions, such is life. However, if they Could, but they are withholding for the purpose of selling upgrade licenses, I'd be bummed out.

I'm willing to bet it is a shortcoming of the Ver. 8 architecture. If so, it makes zero sense for Props to upgrade an old version while they are still developing the current version. (Hopefully working on Ver. 10)

But, I agree. Props should make legacy REs available in the shop, or update the SDK in ver 8 at to accommodate the new REs. By not doing that they are leaving money on the table. Lots of Monies.

[selig]

Agreed, but I "completed" my kiloheartz bundle when i upgraded it with the transient shaper so you suggest bundleling solo bought RE's to a bundle to complete ?
The missing info on not being able to get the last working RE version for your reason version is a thing indeed. Not sure where to put the responsibility for that.
I do agree having more options for dev's isn't a bad thing so people like TS can be helped in the shop, but seeing what kind of outrage people in general can have over products I think it would be weird that people can't see what they buy if they get an outdated RE version for the same price because they didn't upgrade. You wil need to make very sure new users understand which version gets downloaded for their older Reason version. I think it has some legal issues too (not knowing what you are buying).

Edit: I can already picture someone being mad for getting a RE which is more expensive than the older version, do to a paid upgrade, but only being able to use the old version for not upgrading Reason. Something like this:
"It was 50 euro's before, now 75 for the same thing !!!! They want me to pay 129 euro's first to get use of the 25 extra value which i already paid for !!! TRIGGERED " (insert distorted mic breathing sounds)

I know this is not what TS is saying or will do, he understands this.

How is it possible for someone to not know what they are buying?
I think it's been explained you cannot purchase an RE that won't run on your current system, so I don't think what you described could happen (unless I'm missing something here).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[FlowerSoldier]

[/quote]
How is it possible for someone to not know what they are buying?
I think it's been explained you cannot purchase an RE that won't run on your current system, so I don't think what you described could happen (unless I'm missing something here). [/quote]

Right?
My Buddy cannot purchase REs that don't run on his version of Reason.
It's not possible.
I'm with Selig.
But, users should have the option to purchase legacy REs.

One Does not.jpeg (93.69 KiB) Viewed 1687 times

[househoppin09]

I think that what Bonkhead is saying w/r/t "people not knowing what they're buying" is this: take Expanse as an example. Let's say the Props set up the store in such a way that everyone can buy any RE, and will simply get the latest version that their Reason can support. So, if someone on Reason 9.2 buys and downloads Expanse, they get the SDK 2.5 version, and if I (on Reason 7.1) buy and download it, I get the SDK 2.0 version. So far so good, but the sales page for Expanse lists all of the great SDK 2.5 features, right? For customers on Reason 7 or 8 who aren't aware of which features belong to which SDK version, they might buy Expanse and then feel quite cheated when they get a version that can't load wavetables or whatever. So, the sales page would definitely have to make this clear, saying things like "NOTE: this feature requires at least Reason 9.2", etc.

[househoppin09]

Yeah, one good option would be to have a legacy version as a separate product, like I said upthread. And it could be extremely easy and simple, no need to put out the latest version as a separate product. Developers can simply update the original product normally, but also create a new "Reason 7/8 Legacy Version" as a separate entry in the store. The whole thing would take only a few minutes of extra work, wouldn't run the risk of creating any confusion, wouldn't interfere at all with the normal process that most users are already following, and wouldn't require the Props to do anything at all. And there's a good amount of money to be made doing it. Honestly, it seems like a no-brainer to me.

Of course, in a perfect world, it would be great if purchasing a license for a given version of an RE also entitled the user to download any previous version, as needed. Even aside from compatibility, sometimes the design or features change in ways that some users might find disappointing. That would obviously require some pretty major revisions to the shop and delivery system on PH's part, but there's no reason they couldn't do it, and it's something I think a lot of people would appreciate. To deal with the issue of people buying REs that advertise features their version of Reason can't make use of, there could simply be a warning page. Just like there's already a button saying "you have to upgrade Reason first". They could simply replace that button with an interstitial page saying "you can buy this RE, but you'll have to use an outdated version, here are the features that won't be available to you, etc., are you sure you want to proceed". The limitations could be made quite clear, even on an autogenerated warning. I simply don't see the problem with this approach.

[buddard]

Yeah, one good option would be to have a legacy version as a separate product, like I said upthread. And it could be extremely easy and simple, no need to put out the latest version as a separate product. Developers can simply update the original product normally, but also create a new "Reason 7/8 Legacy Version" as a separate entry in the store. The whole thing would take only a few minutes of extra work, wouldn't run the risk of creating any confusion, wouldn't interfere at all with the normal process that most users are already following, and wouldn't require the Props to do anything at all. And there's a good amount of money to be made doing it. Honestly, it seems like a no-brainer to me.

The biggest issue I see with this approach is that they would be seen as completely different devices, so it wouldn't be possible to save a patch in one of them and load into the other. An especially troubling situation is where one user bought the device long ago and is still running it in Reason 8, and the other user bought the "new legacy version": Both devices would seem identical, but they would not be patch compatible with each other at all.

So developers that do this would likely be flooded by additional support requests from users that:

• are having trouble with incompatible patches/songs (imagine if they bought a Refill that only works with the other version!)
• bought the wrong version by mistake
• bought the "new legacy version", but later decided to upgrade to Reason 9

Not to mention that the developer now has two devices to maintain instead of one, each with their own product page, screenshots, etc.

[tiker01]

In all honesty, although I see the reason of the complaint, I do think that it is perfectly fine that you can only buy the most recent version of Re-s.

Even the requirement of newest Reason for big SDK jumps seems reasonable. AFAIK there were minor versions in SDK2 without the need of upgrading Reason. Anyway, you cannot say PH made the jump in Reason 9.0 and tried to sell 9 with SDK 2.5 as feature. It came in 9.2 not even in 9.1. That is how progress works.

On the other hand whether a Re developer gives a heads up prior an update makes an Re incompatible with older versions of Reason is completely up to dev. Obviously Blamsoft couldn't do it as they were doing the update upon request of PH for release day.

Complete my bundle and the option for devs to do loyalty discounts would be great though!

[WillyOD]

It's all about the money, as sad as it is.

My advice: Learn the basics of Reason (or any other DAW), then try to learn even the more advanced stuff. Later you can apply your skills to other stuff. You don't always have to be using the latest version. Or all the plugins. Sometimes restrictions and limitations are good for you and your creative process.

Also Rack Extensions are relatively new to Reason and apparently still evolving format so there will be growing pains.

I also do not agree with some/many of Props doings but I'm thankful for Reason as it as, since its workflow does wonders to my creativity and I haven't felt too heavily restricted by the software, there always seems to be a workaround for annoyances.

[SA Studio]

Is it crazy to think there should be a patch for Reason 7+ owners who are not updated to the latest version of Reason so they can use the latest RE's?

I very clearly remember the conversation at the release of V7 wondering if we were going to need the latest version to use the latest RE's. Turns out, yes. What many of us wondered would happen, definitely did.

Is it fair to the older owners of Reason who bought in at the time of Rack Extensions' release, now that Propellerheads are finally advancing the SDK for their own plug-in format, is it fair to expect them to have to update to the newest version just to use the newest RE's?

Mind you, it's literally been years since RE's were announced, and years since a major SDK advance. Furthermore, SDK advances aren't neccessarily tied into the core-code of the software - it's not. It's an add-on to it. It's something that's well within the realms of "patch-ability".

So here we are. You have to upgrade to the latest Reason version to use the latest RE's. I'm not saying I'm not going to update and likely pay for everything to get up to speed but.....that's not how it works literally anywhere else.

Thoughts?

[joeyluck]

The biggest issue I see with this approach is that they would be seen as completely different devices, so it wouldn't be possible to save a patch in one of them and load into the other. An especially troubling situation is where one user bought the device long ago and is still running it in Reason 8, and the other user bought the "new legacy version": Both devices would seem identical, but they would not be patch compatible with each other at all.

So developers that do this would likely be flooded by additional support requests from users that:

• are having trouble with incompatible patches/songs (imagine if they bought a Refill that only works with the other version!)
• bought the wrong version by mistake
• bought the "new legacy version", but later decided to upgrade to Reason 9

Not to mention that the developer now has two devices to maintain instead of one, each with their own product page, screenshots, etc.

I completely agree with all of this.

[ScuzzyEye]

Furthermore, SDK advances aren't neccessarily tied into the core-code of the software - it's not. It's an add-on to it. It's something that's well within the realms of "patch-ability".

I'd say that RE advances are absolutely tied to the core of Reason. REs aren't stand-alone programs like VSTs, they depend on Reason for much of their interface. They've patched up Reason 7 to include the new SDK features, it's called Reason 9.2.

[normen]

Thoughts?

Hm, I don't know, did previous Logic versions get an update for Audio Unit support? Did previous MacOS versions get support for Metal? Did previous windows versions get an update for DirectX 12? Did previous versions of Android get support for low-latency audio?

And also regarding what Scuzzy said, do you really think they should _not_ get paid for advancing their software? Or do you think that Reason 7 update should be paid? Why can't the update to be 9 that then? Yes, it is at the core of Reason, Reason is what the operating system is to VSTs.

Don't get me wrong, I get your train of thought but I think thats simply not how it works anywhere else either.

[selig]

The biggest issue I see with this approach is that they would be seen as completely different devices, so it wouldn't be possible to save a patch in one of them and load into the other. An especially troubling situation is where one user bought the device long ago and is still running it in Reason 8, and the other user bought the "new legacy version": Both devices would seem identical, but they would not be patch compatible with each other at all.

So developers that do this would likely be flooded by additional support requests from users that:

• are having trouble with incompatible patches/songs (imagine if they bought a Refill that only works with the other version!)
• bought the wrong version by mistake
• bought the "new legacy version", but later decided to upgrade to Reason 9

Not to mention that the developer now has two devices to maintain instead of one, each with their own product page, screenshots, etc.

I completely agree with all of this.

I don't agree with all of it, especially the things that could never happen such as "bought the wrong version by mistake" or the idea of it being a problem for devs with "two devices to maintain". Most devs I've spoken with WANT to be able to maintain older versions, especially for bug fixes (something that isn't possible with the current paradigm. This idea that there is some sort of on-going maintenance isn't realistic - unless there's a bug fix or other update the product just sits in the store.

The part about upgrading Reason IS a valid point, one of the points of this thread if I'm not mistaken, so I DO agree with that part (as previously stated). Again, this could be dealt with easily by the Props IMO.

Based on my experience as a dev to date, there's little likelihood of being flooded by additional support requests. I get about 3-4 support request a year as it is, so even some additional support requests would be well within my ability to handle.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Luxuria]

Update: Received an email from PH's. It was very very brief and to the point.

Stated they updated the RE SDK and as a consequence the Expanse synth V.2 will only work with Reason 9. In light of this they are unable to sell legacy versions of the software due to compatibility issues.

Still waiting on Blamsoft to see what they could do on their end. Maybe do a roll back/ last call V.1 sale if possible? From the PH email it looks unlikely.

Anyone know of a good Expanse replacement? I could always get very technical with a combinator and Thor but the smooth workflow in Expanse's additive engine makes the battle a rough one.

[buddard]

I don't agree with all of it, especially the things that could never happen such as "bought the wrong version by mistake" or the idea of it being a problem for devs with "two devices to maintain". Most devs I've spoken with WANT to be able to maintain older versions, especially for bug fixes (something that isn't possible with the current paradigm. This idea that there is some sort of on-going maintenance isn't realistic - unless there's a bug fix or other update the product just sits in the store.

People buy the wrong thing all the time, in my experience. For a long time I sold Step Note Recorder alongside a bundle that included Select CV Switch for free. I indicated this in the very first sentence of Step's product page, even providing a link to the bundle. The vast majority of support requests I received (and they were many!) were from people who accidentally bought Step standalone instead of the bundle. This is partly why I eventually decided to ditch the bundle and make Select permanently free instead.

I can only imagine how frequent this kind of problem would be with two almost identical products!

I may have exaggerated a bit on the maintenance part, but I'd much prefer to be able to submit bug fixes for a previous version than having to manage two separate products in the shop.

But in the end, the biggest problem of them all I think is the patch compatibility issue, which in itself will result in a world of pain and misery, both for devs and end users.

[selig]

I don't agree with all of it, especially the things that could never happen such as "bought the wrong version by mistake" or the idea of it being a problem for devs with "two devices to maintain". Most devs I've spoken with WANT to be able to maintain older versions, especially for bug fixes (something that isn't possible with the current paradigm. This idea that there is some sort of on-going maintenance isn't realistic - unless there's a bug fix or other update the product just sits in the store.

People buy the wrong thing all the time, in my experience.

My point was only to reiterate it's impossible to buy the wrong version of an RE, which was the only point I was specifically responding to with that comment.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Peter]

Update.

Sorry for the OT but Luxuria I've been wondering for quite some time now - what is your avatar? Is it some kind of delicious pita wrap?

[Luxuria]

Update.

Sorry for the OT but Luxuria I've been wondering for quite some time now - what is your avatar? Is it some kind of delicious pita wrap?

It's a gyro

[Peter]

Update.

Sorry for the OT but Luxuria I've been wondering for quite some time now - what is your avatar? Is it some kind of delicious pita wrap?

It's a gyro

Aaahhh! Nice!

Thanks...carry on!

[Carly(Poohbear)]

Anyone know of a good Expanse replacement? I could always get very technical with a combinator and Thor but the smooth workflow in Expanse's additive engine makes the battle a rough one.

Zero, I have always seen Expanse as Zero's little brother however Expanse seams to be more user friendly....



Regarding this thread, It is a bit of a shambles, I have 9.2 and a 7 license so I can't use RE that I use to be able to use in v7 !!!

[Luxuria]

Anyone know of a good Expanse replacement? I could always get very technical with a combinator and Thor but the smooth workflow in Expanse's additive engine makes the battle a rough one.

Zero, I have always seen Expanse as Zero's little brother however Expanse seams to be more user friendly....



Regarding this thread, It is a bit of a shambles, I have 9.2 and a 7 license so I can't use RE that I use to be able to use in v7 !!!

Zero also went away with the 9.2 update.