Shame on you PH!

[Luxuria]

You know, I've always heard PH doesn't care about their old customer base but I never thought I'd be shafted so soon as a 8.3 user. I'm now part of a niche community that for being only 1 update behind (choosing to skip version 9), I feel drastically separated from the rest of the pack.

This all stems from the inability to purchase certain rack extensions now that the new SDK update with 9.2 is out.

Really? As a developer, I'd feel undercut as well. PH really can't auto detect the reason version I have and sell me the last compatible version? So now I'm pissed feeling cut off from a market that prides itself on continuous support. How have developers not made any statements supporting their customers who would like to purchase their product who aren't on 9.2? Don't you want a bigger the piece of the pie?

Where was the warning? If I knew I couldn't purchase Expanse after the update, I would have done something to make the purchase even though the money wasn't available at the time. Now I'm left with a $129 "pay wall" to have to purchase exclusive RE's from the market. It never bothered me before, but the lack of transparency from PH really hurts their customers.

Seeing at this isn't the first time PH has chosen to make updates at the worst time possible (0.X updates). And the lack of cross over time makes me believe it was done only to boost Reason 9 sales, aka, new customers.

I hope the developers can back us (old) customers up and get PH to implement a "last compatible version" for their products.

Until then, I'll be in contemplative limbo of whether or not to boycott RE's or try to purchase what's left before the next buss leaves with the next wave of RE's (The Legend, Nostromo, Vecto, etc...)

[househoppin09]

It's rare indeed that I line up with anti-Props rants, but this is the time. I actually contacted them directly about this and pretty much told them flat-out that they were making a big mistake, which is very unlike me. A large share of Reason users are not on 9.2 and aren't about to be. The idea of an increasingly large pool of existing REs becoming off-limits for them is utter madness, given that there are still perfectly compatible versions of those REs stored on the servers and downloadable by users who had the foresight to purchase them in time. I myself was just burned by this--I was going to buy both Expanse and Zero, and will now have to totally forget about those purchases, as I've made a firm choice not to upgrade Reason anytime soon. I have the $270 and want to fork it over for those REs, and I can't. Propellerhead is essentially saying "we have the product you want to buy, it's on our servers and all ready to go, but we refuse to sell it to you because it would require us to code up a slightly more complex delivery system". They're hurting themselves as well as third-party devs. I really don't know how there hasn't been more fuss about this, but I'm sure there will be once a bunch more REs are updated to the new SDK. Something will have to be done about this one way or another.

[Peter]

Shouldn't be that difficult to upgrade.

[Loque]

Ppl crying for SDK update, and now crying for incompatiblity. Too me, i am not amused that RE developers wont fix bugs, because they wanted to be down compatible.

[mguh22]

It's been like this for years.

For Reason 6 users there was a period of time where both Radical Piano and Parsec worked fine but once the SDK was updated to V2 and subsequent new versions were pushed for these two Instruments, they became Reason 7 only.

It was this and the fact the A-Lists were released as Reason 7 only from the beginning that forced me to upgrade from Reason 6.

There's an argument that they should detach the SDK from the main app, and allow all versions of Reason 6+ to load all Rack Extensions. The backwards compatibility is pretty disappointing given how good Reason has been in the past with allowing old versions to still load newer stuff (i.e. ReFills with newer content in aren't completely locked out from even loading in older versions).

[deepndark]

Which one is better:
A) Props and Re devs working shitloads of hours more
B) The customers upgrade to latest Reason which actually is an option to solve the A)

[rcbuse]

Really? As a developer, I'd feel undercut as well. PH really can't auto detect the reason version I have and sell me the last compatible version? So now I'm pissed feeling cut off from a market that prides itself on continuous support. How have developers not made any statements supporting their customers who would like to purchase their product who aren't on 9.2? Don't you want a bigger the piece of the pie?

I can't speak for the other developers, but I can tell our perspective on this. All developers are aware of the consequences of using the new SDK to update their products. I don't feel as if any undercutting has taken place. The older SDK is still available and fully supported, and if a developer chooses to build with it, their produces are still available to R7 & R8 users. So, its fully up to the developers to make the jump to SDK 2.5 and 9.2+ only products or not. For myself, it comes down to new features. What features are going to make a better product and user experience? Yea, its not available to R7 and R8 users, but just like R6 users and the SDK 2.0 update, time marches forward and that user base gets smaller and smaller.

[ejanuska]

I don't get it. Why not just upgrade if you have the money and you can afford it?

Why purposely handicap yourself?

Holding on to those Line6 amps?

[sdst]

If there was a version of RE compatible with Reason 8

Why not keep it in the shop? for Reason 8 user, They are going to lose sales.

[rcbuse]

If there was a version of RE compatible with Reason 8

Why not keep it in the shop? for Reason 8 user, They are going to lose sales.

These are my guesses:
1) You have to write and test all the code to support that, including all the backend for RE developers to maintain multiple versions.
2) There is a large overlap in people that buy rack extensions and people that have already updated to R9.
3) The RE sales from users that are still on R7 and R8 would never cover #1
4) They want people to have reasons to upgrade to R9.
Added:
5) There are going to be very few rack extensions that make the SDK2->SDK2.5 update that this would apply to. I think most 2.5 SDK devices are going to be new.

[normen]

If there was a version of RE compatible with Reason 8

Why not keep it in the shop? for Reason 8 user, They are going to lose sales.

These are my guesses:
1) You have to write and test all the code to support that, including all the backend for RE developers to maintain multiple versions.
2) There is a large overlap in people that buy rack extensions and people that have already updated to R9.
3) The RE sales from users that are still on R7 and R8 would never cover #1
4) They want people to have reasons to upgrade to R9.
Added:
5) There are going to be very few rack extensions that make the SDK2->SDK2.5 update that this would apply to. I think most 2.5 SDK devices are going to be new.

But they could easily do it like in Apples App Store where you automatically get the latest compiled version that works for your computer, even if its a few years old. Not allow updates to old versions but allow DOWNLOADING them!

I completely understand that people are pissed off when suddenly they can't install a plugin they used anymore just because theres a new version of Reason out and the plugin got some update. REs are supposed to be much more convenient than VST in many regards, THIS IS NOT! If you buy a VST you at least keep that version in that state forever and could in 20 years build a "Retro music PC". With REs - not so.

[sdst]

These are my guesses:

That's a very good explanation, Thank

4) They want people to have reasons to upgrade to R9.

[rcbuse]

e]

But they could easily do it like in Apples App Store where you automatically get the latest compiled version that works for your computer, even if its a few years old.

I completely understand that people are pissed off when suddenly they can't install a plugin they used anymore just because theres a new version of Reason out and the plugin got some update. REs are supposed to be much more convenient than VST in many regards, THIS IS NOT! If you buy a VST you at least keep that version in that state forever and could in 20 years build a "Retro music PC". With REs - not so.

That is exactly how it works. If you purchased a version that was built with SDK 2.0 on R8, it will continue to work forever. You can continue to install that version on R8 going forward. They would be insane to break that.

What you can't do it purchase the old version anymore.

[mreese80]

PH has been getting over on their customers for years. I'm fine with 8.3. The new features are no use to me. I know a lot of people are pissed after the new update.

[househoppin09]

Developers, how about this as a compromise, since we all know that the Props aren't going to help out here: when you've got a popular RE, and you upgrade it to use the new SDK, there's technically nothing stopping you from releasing it as a new RE instead. So, for example, instead of releasing an updated SDK 2.5-only version of Expanse, Blamsoft could have released an "Expanse II" or "Expanse Deluxe" or whatever, and both versions could be sold side-by-side. If there's a concern about having to maintain two parallel codebases, just abandon the older one, refuse to maintain or update it, but for god's sake please leave it in your store so that those of us who aren't upgrading can still buy it. I see absolutely no reason for developers not to do this. I mean, yes, it's clunky and awkward, but what price are you willing to put on avoiding that bit of clumsiness? We're talking lost sales here, and not a few. There's real money being left on the table.

For example, since Lectric Panda is so generously popping in here, let's take the excellent PSQ-1684. That was very much on my to-buy list, but now it's off limits to me. I know, I know, "upgrade your Reason". Sorry, but I simply won't be doing that anytime soon, so that's off the table. As such, that's $70 I was going to give to Lectric Panda (well, less the Props' cut), that will now just stay in my bank account. Of course, I'm not the only one in this boat. How many others are there in the specific case of PSQ-1684? Who knows, but probably a decent handful. Perhaps a dozen (I have no idea what kind of numbers are involved here, but that seems plausible). To Lectric Panda, I would ask: you may not like the idea of having two versions of PSQ-1684 in your shop, but is avoiding that really worth losing out on nearly $1000? I'm struggling to see the reasoning here.

Edited to add: Obviously I realize that you don't want existing users to have to pay full price for the new version, but that's no problem at all. What you do is this: the original shop entry gets upgraded, and the previous version is uploaded as though it were a fresh item in the store. So, continuing with the PSQ-1684 example, it would be a matter of just upgrading the main PSQ-1684 to the latest version, as has now been done, and then uploading a new entry to the store called "PSQ-1684 for Reason 7 and 8", or whatever. People who bought the RE originally have the option to do the free or cheap upgrade to the latest version, and people who need the older version have the option to buy that at its original price.

[normen]

That is exactly how it works. If you purchased a version that was built with SDK 2.0 on R8, it will continue to work forever. You can continue to install that version on R8 going forward. They would be insane to break that.

What you can't do it purchase the old version anymore.

Huh? No it doesn't. If I was to publish a new version of VMG-01 now then Reason 6.5 users wouldn't get the previous version, they simply couldn't download it anymore. I would have to publish "VMG-01 v2" (basically a completely separate RE) and then have the issue of no real upgrade path in the Props Store. Sure they could keep an actual copy of their RE folder and copy that over to a new install but they couldn't download the older version.

And the other thing isn't true either, you can very well purchase a RE that isn't compatible to 6.5 while you only have Reason 6.5 in your Props account.

[househoppin09]

Normen, I think LP is saying that for people who already have the RE license in their account, they can sync to whichever version the license is for. For example, I have VMG-01 v1.0.4, and if you update it, my license will remain at 1.0.4 until I actually go ahead and click the upgrade button. Newcomers, however, will have no choice but to purchase a license for the latest version.

[normen]

Normen, I think LP is saying that for people who already have the RE license in their account, they can sync to whichever version the license is for. For example, I have VMG-01 v1.0.4, and if you update it, my license will remain at 1.0.4 until I actually go ahead and click the upgrade button. Newcomers, however, will have no choice but to purchase a license for the latest version.

Yeah but you can't download 1.0.4 anymore. And what "upgrade button"? You just get the update when a RE is updated, right? No button to press except "sync all". Sure you won't get that update if its not compatible but again with a new install of Reason you can't install 1.0.4 anymore unless you kept a local backup.

[househoppin09]

No, REs don't auto-update. At least, not for me. You have to specifically pull the trigger on the update by clicking the button for that. Until then, it syncs you to the version you originally purchased.

[Kaosis]

Developers, how about this as a compromise, since we all know that the Props aren't going to help out here: when you've got a popular RE, and you upgrade it to use the new SDK, there's technically nothing stopping you from releasing it as a new RE instead. So, for example, instead of releasing an updated SDK 2.5-only version of Expanse, Blamsoft could have released an "Expanse II" or "Expanse Deluxe" or whatever, and both versions could be sold side-by-side. If there's a concern about having to maintain two parallel codebases, just abandon the older one, refuse to maintain or update it, but for god's sake please leave it in your store so that those of us who aren't upgrading can still buy it. I see absolutely no reason for developers not to do this. I mean, yes, it's clunky and awkward, but what price are you willing to put on avoiding that bit of clumsiness? We're talking lost sales here, and not a few. There's real money being left on the table.

For example, since Lectric Panda is so generously popping in here, let's take the excellent PSQ-1684. That was very much on my to-buy list, but now it's off limits to me. I know, I know, "upgrade your Reason". Sorry, but I simply won't be doing that anytime soon, so that's off the table. As such, that's $70 I was going to give to Lectric Panda (well, less the Props' cut), that will now just stay in my bank account. Of course, I'm not the only one in this boat. How many others are there in the specific case of PSQ-1684? Who knows, but probably a decent handful. Perhaps a dozen (I have no idea what kind of numbers are involved here, but that seems plausible). To Lectric Panda, I would ask: you may not like the idea of having two versions of PSQ-1684 in your shop, but is avoiding that really worth losing out on nearly $1000? I'm struggling to see the reasoning here.

Edited to add: Obviously I realize that you don't want existing users to have to pay full price for the new version, but that's no problem at all. What you do is this: the original shop entry gets upgraded, and the previous version is uploaded as though it were a fresh item in the store. So, continuing with the PSQ-1684 example, it would be a matter of just upgrading the main PSQ-1684 to the latest version, as has now been done, and then uploading a new entry to the store called "PSQ-1684 for Reason 7 and 8", or whatever. People who bought the RE originally have the option to do the free or cheap upgrade to the latest version, and people who need the older version have the option to buy that at its original price.

At which point the dev gets slandered for gouging their customers wallets for "minor" updates.

I'm still on 8.3 but there's no real justifiable reason to maintain an old version. Everything out there is about the bottom line and in the grand scheme of things PH is less so than most others. Which is why use the rack and created their own SDK to compliment it vs. giving in to unstable VST cries. But they do want you to upgrade, money is how they go from 8 to 9 to 10, the SDK adds another reason to upgrade and they probably wanted that ready for r9, but it wasn't so they chose to hold off until ready.

[normen]

No, REs don't auto-update. At least, not for me. You have to specifically pull the trigger on the update by clicking the button for that. Until then, it syncs you to the version you originally purchased.

Funny, when I press "sync all" I get all updates for all REs I have. I never pressed the "update" button on single REs. Theres an "Upgrade" option, yes, for PAID upgrades. That obviously doesn't happen automatically but its a different thing, you're actually paying money then.

[househoppin09]

No, REs don't auto-update. At least, not for me. You have to specifically pull the trigger on the update by clicking the button for that. Until then, it syncs you to the version you originally purchased.

Funny, when I press "sync all" I get all updates for all REs I have. I never pressed the "update" button on single REs. Theres an "Upgrade" option, yes, for PAID upgrades. That obviously doesn't happen automatically but its a different thing, you're actually paying money then.

Actually, you might be right about that, as I don't think I've ever done "Sync all" when I had non-paid updates waiting to be accepted. In any case, updates from an older SDK to a newer one will generally be consequential enough to be paid upgrades, so that probably won't come into play here.

[househoppin09]

Developers, how about this as a compromise, since we all know that the Props aren't going to help out here: when you've got a popular RE, and you upgrade it to use the new SDK, there's technically nothing stopping you from releasing it as a new RE instead. So, for example, instead of releasing an updated SDK 2.5-only version of Expanse, Blamsoft could have released an "Expanse II" or "Expanse Deluxe" or whatever, and both versions could be sold side-by-side. If there's a concern about having to maintain two parallel codebases, just abandon the older one, refuse to maintain or update it, but for god's sake please leave it in your store so that those of us who aren't upgrading can still buy it. I see absolutely no reason for developers not to do this. I mean, yes, it's clunky and awkward, but what price are you willing to put on avoiding that bit of clumsiness? We're talking lost sales here, and not a few. There's real money being left on the table.

For example, since Lectric Panda is so generously popping in here, let's take the excellent PSQ-1684. That was very much on my to-buy list, but now it's off limits to me. I know, I know, "upgrade your Reason". Sorry, but I simply won't be doing that anytime soon, so that's off the table. As such, that's $70 I was going to give to Lectric Panda (well, less the Props' cut), that will now just stay in my bank account. Of course, I'm not the only one in this boat. How many others are there in the specific case of PSQ-1684? Who knows, but probably a decent handful. Perhaps a dozen (I have no idea what kind of numbers are involved here, but that seems plausible). To Lectric Panda, I would ask: you may not like the idea of having two versions of PSQ-1684 in your shop, but is avoiding that really worth losing out on nearly $1000? I'm struggling to see the reasoning here.

Edited to add: Obviously I realize that you don't want existing users to have to pay full price for the new version, but that's no problem at all. What you do is this: the original shop entry gets upgraded, and the previous version is uploaded as though it were a fresh item in the store. So, continuing with the PSQ-1684 example, it would be a matter of just upgrading the main PSQ-1684 to the latest version, as has now been done, and then uploading a new entry to the store called "PSQ-1684 for Reason 7 and 8", or whatever. People who bought the RE originally have the option to do the free or cheap upgrade to the latest version, and people who need the older version have the option to buy that at its original price.

At which point the dev gets slandered for gouging their customers wallets for "minor" updates.

I'm still on 8.3 but there's no real justifiable reason to maintain an old version. Everything out there is about the bottom line and in the grand scheme of things PH is less so than most others. Which is why use the rack and created their own SDK to compliment it vs. giving in to unstable VST cries. But they do want you to upgrade, money is how they go from 8 to 9 to 10, the SDK adds another reason to upgrade and they probably wanted that ready for r9, but it wasn't so they chose to hold off until ready.

I'm sure you're entirely right about PH's motivations, but I'm talking about what developers can do here, to provide their products to customers who very much want them and make more money all at once. There wouldn't be any "gouging for minor updates" in the scenario I'm proposing. Upgrades that involve new SDK features are rarely if ever going to be free updates. If they are, maybe they shouldn't be! Charging at least a token $9 or whatever for the upgrade seems fair in that case. Anyway, the devs wouldn't get any flak for what I'm proposing, because it wouldn't infringe on their ability to do their pricing exactly the same way they do it now. They can make the update to the SDK 2.5 version free, or $9, or any amount, on the original shop item. The "Reason 7 & 8 version" can just be added as a separate item that people like me can buy and everyone else can ignore. No one is inconvenienced in any way.

[normen]

Actually, you might be right about that, as I don't think I've ever done "Sync all" when I had non-paid updates waiting to be accepted. In any case, updates from an older SDK to a newer one will generally be consequential enough to be paid upgrades, so that probably won't come into play here.

Doesn't have to be. Take VMG-01 for example, I know of a very minor UI bug in the plugin (display doesn't light up after bypassing and re-enabling the RE) but I cannot fix it while maintaining compatiblity for Reason 6.5 users. As I have to use the newer SDK now, as soon as I post the update there is no way for people with a fresh 6.5 install to download my plugin anymore. (Again, unless I make it "VMG-01 v2" which would technically be a new RE with a new full price for a bug fix O_O)

[househoppin09]

Actually, you might be right about that, as I don't think I've ever done "Sync all" when I had non-paid updates waiting to be accepted. In any case, updates from an older SDK to a newer one will generally be consequential enough to be paid upgrades, so that probably won't come into play here.

Doesn't have to be. Take VMG-01 for example, I know of a very minor UI bug in the plugin (display doesn't light up after bypassing and re-enabling the RE) but I cannot fix it while maintaining compatiblity for Reason 6.5 users. As I have to use the newer SDK now, as soon as I post the update there is no way for people with a fresh 6.5 install to download my plugin anymore. (Again, unless I make it "VMG-01 v2" which would technically be a new RE with a new full price for a bug fix O_O)

If this is true, it's even worse than I thought. Are there any examples of REs that have been given free updates under such circumstances, and are therefore now inaccessible to paid customers? I've never seen a single such complaint, and I'd expect them to be shouting from the rooftops! And btw, why can't you just fix the bug and push the update, all still using the original SDK version?