Question for folks who also use Cakewalk SONAR

[Social Exodus]

I am trying to reconcile a few concepts in my head, namely busses, Aux tracks, patch points and sends as these relate to Reason.

In SONAR, I wound create a bus for reverb and also create a send from a track to that bus to put reverb on the track. In Reason, you put the reverb into the master section as a send effect and use the sends on the SSL console to control what tracks get reverb. Can you also create a bus, add a reverb and send tracks to it? I ask because there are only so many sends on the master section.

Also, are the parallel channels you can create in Reason analogous to Aux tracks in SONAR?

Finally, are these so called patch points that SONAR has available in Reason by virtue of the rack and the splitter / merger devices? Or am I off base there?

I use both of these DAWS at present to teach myself how to do recording, mixing and mastering but my head prefers Reason even though SONAR seems perhaps more capable because it seems more complex. Reason just feels more approachable to me, even though I do wish it had more variety in guitar effects (I am primarily a guitarist). I have been told that these concepts I am asking about are Recording Engineering 101 items, but due to the distinct differences between these two DAWS, I thought to ask the more qualified people here about them. I guess the bottom line is this; is Reason as capable a DAW as SONAR, Pro Tools or the rest of the big names out there for learning this stuff comprehensively or should I continue to divide my time between the two learning multiple ways of doing things?

[MannequinRaces]

Yep, you can make a bus and send tracks to it. Just right click on the channel strip in the SSL or the mix channel in the rack and go down to Route To -> New Output bus. For other channels you want to add to that bus do the same thing but instead of selecting new output bus you can select the bus you created earlier. Hope that helps!

[Creativemind]

But I'm not sure you can create a new channel in the main mixer just for an effect and then send a track to that effect.
In Reason, you can have 2 tracks (an audio and a Thor for instance) and route them both to a new output bus and then it creates a new channel on the main mixer which is the new bus channel with a red fader. You still have to apply an insert effect onto that channel which will effect both channels routed to it. I just tried it. You click on slot 1 of the FX Return section in the Master Section and then click Create Send FX from the menu. Then add whatever, delay, reverb etc. Then you have to click (on the bus channel) on the number 1 pre (if it was slot 1 you applied the insert effect to in the master section) to highlight it (see attached pic) and thus apply the send effect to the new output bus (which is what the audio and Thor tracks were sent to) if that makes sense.

Hope this helped. Think Reason should up the amount of send FX slots to 10 though and I've just noticed the FX on each channel are Pre, shouldn't there be a Post as well, as in Pre Fader and Post Fader (I think!)?

[MannequinRaces]

You can also create a mixer channel first if you now in advance that you want to use it later for effects and then route other channels to it.

[Social Exodus]

But I'm not sure you can create a new channel in the main mixer just for an effect and then send a track to that effect.
In Reason, you can have 2 tracks (an audio and a Thor for instance) and route them both to a new output bus and then it creates a new channel on the main mixer which is the new bus channel with a red fader. You still have to apply an insert effect onto that channel which will effect both channels routed to it. I just tried it. You click on slot 1 of the FX Return section in the Master Section and then click Create Send FX from the menu. Then add whatever, delay, reverb etc. Then you have to click (on the bus channel) on the number 1 pre (if it was slot 1 you applied the insert effect to in the master section) to highlight it (see attached pic) and thus apply the send effect to the new output bus (which is what the audio and Thor tracks were sent to) if that makes sense.

Hope this helped. Think Reason should up the amount of send FX slots to 10 though and I've just noticed the FX on each channel are Pre, shouldn't there be a Post as well, as in Pre Fader and Post Fader (I think!)?

Thanks for the reply. I think with regard to the Pre/Post fader thing, isn't it setup that if the PRE button is lit, it's a pre fader send and if not it's post fader?

[Social Exodus]

Yep, you can make a bus and send tracks to it. Just right click on the channel strip in the SSL or the mix channel in the rack and go down to Route To -> New Output bus. For other channels you want to add to that bus do the same thing but instead of selecting new output bus you can select the bus you created earlier. Hope that helps!

Great tip, thanks. I'll check it out tonight when I get off work.

[Creativemind]

You can also create a mixer channel first if you now in advance that you want to use it later for effects and then route other channels to it.

Oh yeah so create a mix channel in the rack and you create a channel on the SSL. Can't see anywhere where you can make this an output bus, would other daw's allow this? the creation of a bus without anything being routed to it? one work around would be to route this empty channel to a new output bus perhaps (with send fx on the new output bus) and then route the others to the new output bus as you go along, then you could delete the original that was routed to it couldn't you? would be nice if you could just turn an empty mix channel into an output bus though with a red fader.

and Siberian you are right...if pre is lit it's pre fader and if it's not it's post fader, the button is pre fader on and off. I thought it was just displaying the send effect was pre fader, didn't realise it was selectable lol! doh!

[Soft Enerji]

You can also create a mixer channel first if you now in advance that you want to use it later for effects and then route other channels to it.

As Siberian Khatru has already noted the approach used by each DAW is different. Personally I prefer Sonar's workflow for mixing which I why I tend to rewire and finish most (but not all) my tunes in Sonar. The above tip from MannequinRaces is a good way to use Sonar's approach in Reason if you feel that way inclined. That's the beauty of Reason and it's routing capabilities, you're only limited by you're own imagination. I tend to start most things off in Reason because it's just so intuitive then most often move over to Sonar to finish things off.

When I first got Sonar it was really daunting but I stuck with it and it was probably the X1 version where I really started to get my head around it's workflow. There's so much to learn with any DAW and most likely (if you're anything like me) you don't have the time for study . I've now got Studio One Artist installed because it came with a new keyboard controller..........one of these days I'll try to make something in it

There are some really great tutorials out there with the likes of Groove3 and AskVideo if you're interested.

Cheers

Mark

[Social Exodus]

Thanks for all the tips and help folks, I appreciate it!

[Social Exodus]

You can also create a mixer channel first if you now in advance that you want to use it later for effects and then route other channels to it.

As Siberian Khatru has already noted the approach used by each DAW is different. Personally I prefer Sonar's workflow for mixing which I why I tend to rewire and finish most (but not all) my tunes in Sonar. The above tip from MannequinRaces is a good way to use Sonar's approach in Reason if you feel that way inclined. That's the beauty of Reason and it's routing capabilities, you're only limited by you're own imagination. I tend to start most things off in Reason because it's just so intuitive then most often move over to Sonar to finish things off.

When I first got Sonar it was really daunting but I stuck with it and it was probably the X1 version where I really started to get my head around it's workflow. There's so much to learn with any DAW and most likely (if you're anything like me) you don't have the time for study . I've now got Studio One Artist installed because it came with a new keyboard controller..........one of these days I'll try to make something in it

There are some really great tutorials out there with the likes of Groove3 and AskVideo if you're interested.

Cheers

Mark

So do you find that you don't need as many after market plug-ins with SPLAT? When I say it seems more capable, that is really what I mean -- there is more "out of the box". Now I've collected quite a cadre of rack extensions this past three years, some I use often, some I plan to use and a couple that ended up, well duds at least to me. I have enough now that I feel like I can make Reason my "go to" setup, and use SONAR as well for guitar parts and import them in later, if that makes sense. I realize that trying to learn two DAWS at once is a difficult row to hoe, but Reason being one of those has eased that quite a bit for me. Like you, SONAR was daunting at first, but in the last 6 months or so some concepts have come up (like these I am asking after) that have made some light bulbs pop on for me, and at the same time I wonder "hey, can Reason do this too?". Like I said, I'm a rookie but it sure is fun learning this stuff!

[Grumbleweed]

I use Sonar as Sonar and Reason as Reason and I don't try to carry over/adapt any particular working methods from one to the other - I just do what comes naturally to each DAW. Time spent trying to figure a way to replicate a method from one DAW to another is time wasted when you could just use the original DAW to begin with.
Having said that I realise my opinion is based on having used both Reason and Sonar for around 12 years and so I probably have a different mindset to someone who has just started using them.
It's also worth noting that I've turned from a Reason user who used Sonar for bits and pieces to a Sonar user who uses Reason for certain things. The lure of third party plugins is just too strong .

Grum.

[EdGrip]

It seems to me that simply routing to a new output bus with reverb - reverb bus - doesn't give you control offer the level of the send effect on a particular channel.

To do that, you would need to right-click on the mixer channel you want to add reverb to, let's say vocals, and select "Create parallel channel".
Then rename the newly created parallel channel - "P VOX snd/r" or something - and then right-click on that new parallel channel.
Select "route to new output bus", or select from the list of busses if you've already made one.
Now, the fader on the parallel channel is the Send Level control for your vocals. You can also separately control the EQ and dynamics of the signal being sent, independently of the dry signal, which can be handy if you want to stop the reverb seeing too much bass etc.

[Soft Enerji]

So do you find that you don't need as many after market plug-ins with SPLAT? When I say it seems more capable, that is really what I mean -- there is more "out of the box". Now I've collected quite a cadre of rack extensions this past three years, some I use often, some I plan to use and a couple that ended up, well duds at least to me. I have enough now that I feel like I can make Reason my "go to" setup, and use SONAR as well for guitar parts and import them in later, if that makes sense. I realize that trying to learn two DAWS at once is a difficult row to hoe, but Reason being one of those has eased that quite a bit for me. Like you, SONAR was daunting at first, but in the last 6 months or so some concepts have come up (like these I am asking after) that have made some light bulbs pop on for me, and at the same time I wonder "hey, can Reason do this too?". Like I said, I'm a rookie but it sure is fun learning this stuff!

I don't use half of what comes with Sonar never mind anything outside of the box I've got all the Pro Channel gear, Rapture Pro and Z3ta2 synths. I use these extensively but there is so much that I never touch. The same with Reason. I have a few REs but don't intend getting any more and as for Refills, I've got shitloads of them. Lately I've come to the conclusion that less is more. Too much to choose from seems to be getting in the way of making music. Learning is good for you so keep it up dude!

[Soft Enerji]

I use Sonar as Sonar and Reason as Reason and I don't try to carry over/adapt any particular working methods from one to the other - I just do what comes naturally to each DAW. Time spent trying to figure a way to replicate a method from one DAW to another is time wasted when you could just use the original DAW to begin with.
Having said that I realise my opinion is based on having used both Reason and Sonar for around 12 years and so I probably have a different mindset to someone who has just started using them.
It's also worth noting that I've turned from a Reason user who used Sonar for bits and pieces to a Sonar user who uses Reason for certain things. The lure of third party plugins is just too strong .

Grum.

All of the above

[Social Exodus]

So do you find that you don't need as many after market plug-ins with SPLAT? When I say it seems more capable, that is really what I mean -- there is more "out of the box". Now I've collected quite a cadre of rack extensions this past three years, some I use often, some I plan to use and a couple that ended up, well duds at least to me. I have enough now that I feel like I can make Reason my "go to" setup, and use SONAR as well for guitar parts and import them in later, if that makes sense. I realize that trying to learn two DAWS at once is a difficult row to hoe, but Reason being one of those has eased that quite a bit for me. Like you, SONAR was daunting at first, but in the last 6 months or so some concepts have come up (like these I am asking after) that have made some light bulbs pop on for me, and at the same time I wonder "hey, can Reason do this too?". Like I said, I'm a rookie but it sure is fun learning this stuff!

I don't use half of what comes with Sonar never mind anything outside of the box I've got all the Pro Channel gear, Rapture Pro and Z3ta2 synths. I use these extensively but there is so much that I never touch. The same with Reason. I have a few REs but don't intend getting any more and as for Refills, I've got shitloads of them. Lately I've come to the conclusion that less is more. Too much to choose from seems to be getting in the way of making music. Learning is good for you so keep it up dude!

Less is more, no doubt. I've known this for years really, yet the allure of new and shiny always seems to beckon. My New Year's resolution is to actually be more of a minimalist -- learn to get the most out of what I have now. So of course, I've been on a bit of a spending spree in preparation for minimizing

But seriously -- I've reached the point now where I believe Reason is roughly equivalent to SONAR in terms of what I can do IF I have the knowledge, the drive, determination and the inspiration. This stuff truly interests the hell out of me and I can sit and fiddle with knobs, dials and sliders endlessly. Lately, I've begun to actually HEAR the differences in fairly minute changes made in a given parameter -- they say your ears need to be trained after all. I am actually happy chasing two muses right now, even though I know I;'ll never make a dime doing this stuff. I'm almost 58 and a database administrator in my prime and changing careers now makes no sense. I do this strictly because it's fun and rewarding. I once loved to program computers -- then I made it my career and it's been work ever since. Not going to do that to my music which is (besides my family) my one true love in this world.

Probably more than you wanted to know, but there it is anyway.

[Soft Enerji]

Well at 52 I thought I'd be one of the oldest on here . I'm the same, I do this for the creative outlet..........but if someone wanted to pay for something I'd take it

[Grumbleweed]

I'm sat in the middle - 55 in 5 days time. There must be something about Sonar and old(ish) farts .
Still no signs of maturing though.....

Grum.

[Soft Enerji]

I'm sat in the middle - 55 in 5 days time. There must be something about Sonar and old(ish) farts .
Still no signs of maturing though.....

Grum.

That's exactly what my wife says.......

Happy noo year to all!!

And happy birthday Grum

[Grumbleweed]

I'm sat in the middle - 55 in 5 days time. There must be something about Sonar and old(ish) farts .
Still no signs of maturing though.....

Grum.

That's exactly what my wife says.......

Happy noo year to all!!

And happy birthday Grum

Thanks Mr Softy .

For my birthday (due to my immaturity) I have a HJC Ironman motorcycle crash helmet coming, and due to wear and tear taking out my Sennheiser HD 280s, I'm getting some HD 6 MIX headphones. Got to love Mrs Grumbleweed .

[Social Exodus]

Still no signs of maturing though.....Grum.

Nope, none here either. Heck, I actively fight it lol

[Social Exodus]

I'm sat in the middle - 55 in 5 days time. There must be something about Sonar and old(ish) farts .
Still no signs of maturing though.....

Grum.

That's exactly what my wife says.......

Happy noo year to all!!

And happy birthday Grum

Same to you sir...you are already in the new year if I'm not mistaken!

[Soft Enerji]

I was and I believe you are now too.........not many places left in 16 now......

[Italophile]

Siberian Khatru wrote:
In SONAR, I wound create a bus for reverb and also create a send from a track to that bus to put reverb on the track. In Reason, you put the reverb into the master section as a send effect and use the sends on the SSL console to control what tracks get reverb. Can you also create a bus, add a reverb and send tracks to it? I ask because there are only so many sends on the master section.

Yes you can achieve the above in Reason though it requires some lateral thinking.

Reason Rack.jpg

Add a Line Mixer into the Insert Effects of the instruments Mix Channel. Make sure that the volume levels remain at 100. In the Mix Channel programmer assign Rotary 1 to the Send level for Channel 1. Route the Send Out to the Spider Audio Merger.
Create a Mix Channel and add your send effect device below it. Route the audio from the Spider into the input of the Effect device and route the output of the effect device into the Mix Channel input.
You can now control the send level for the instrument from Rotary 1 in the Inserts section on the Main Mixer, and control the return using the channel for the send device (which you will need to rename). The one thing I haven't figured out is a means of making the send post fader.
This method enables you to use the same effect as a send for several devices.

PS: I too am an old(ish) fart, though I don't use Sonar!
BTW: In UK English "trump" is used as an euphemism for fart, so it could be said that 2017 is the Year of the Old(ish) Fart!