Fighting with Reason

[WongoTheSane]

Nope. Missed the point. It has nothing to do with how I go about making music and everything to do with what I was trying to communicate in the thread. I was communicating feeling because I'm a musician. I was not making a scientific assertion because I'm not a scientist.

Yeah, but you're using a computer, and the computer only knows 1's and 0's, and only knows logic. There is no "feeling" in the computer. Which is why this "Reason sound myth" has been disproven time and again already.

But I'm speaking about my personal frustration which may have to do with master plugins, with harshness of Reason eq, or master bus compression, or a whole host of bloody reasons which have nothing to do with what people are arguing against. It's a straw man argument.
I never came on here and said
"Reason handle's audio differently and I can prove it"
I said "I feel like I'm always fighting with Reason to get a mix, and when I import into ProTools it starts sounding better immediately".
That has nothing to do with 0's and 1's or science or anything else.

What do you people all do all day? Are you all scientist or engineers or something?
Because this is quite literally insane and completely different to any other professional music creating forum or group I'm part of.
Point completely missed even after I've spelled out my intent, why I gave examples, and what solution I was hoping for: HELP
Help does not equal being told you're psychosomatic or that there is no problem.
Help involves suggestions to try different plugins or chains or processes or a host of other suggestions completely unrelated to the rubbish being posted here.
Are you really all that insecure?
That a person struggling with how to use Reason is being interpreted as being told your instrument sucks?
Get over it guys, really.

Your original question was:

> I love creating music in Reason, but man, I always feel like I'm fighting to get a mixdown working. Especially getting vocals to sit in the mix. I bounce out stems and import them into ProTools and bam. Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together. Why?

The answer, given to you several times in this thread, is: because you have a compressor/limiter in PT's mastering chain which you don't have in Reason. The suggestion was to do the same in Reason to get the same sound as in PT. Help was provided.

Then you insisted on "summing" being the cause of your troubles, and that's just silly, so you were explained. When you persisted, you were laughed at. How is this different from any other forum? Or IRL for that matter?

[Riverman]

Your original question was:

> I love creating music in Reason, but man, I always feel like I'm fighting to get a mixdown working. Especially getting vocals to sit in the mix. I bounce out stems and import them into ProTools and bam. Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together. Why?

The answer, given to you several times in this thread, is: because you have a compressor/limiter in PT's mastering chain which you don't have in Reason. The suggestion was to do the same in Reason to get the same sound as in PT. Help was provided.

Then you insisted on "summing" being the cause of your troubles, and that's just silly, so you were explained. When you persisted, you were laughed at. How is this different from any other forum? Or IRL for that matter?

I offered the summing explanation for LOGIC, not for Reason, offered by Logic experts who suggested a workaround to getting the same sort of level gain structure as in ProTools. Different DAWs do sound different to so many people when they're working in them. The overwhelming amount of professional testimony on this is freely available. Either you're telling professionals who rely on their ears that they are deluded, or you're misunderstanding the process as evidenced here.

[Riverman]

Don't know where the post went.. . but here, i took time out of the day to compose a "test"

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... Reason.aif

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... oTools.aif

There you go, no plugins on the ProTools import, no master bus processing in either.

But that's not replicating my process. I do not work like that, so that's not helping me at all.

But I'm sure you can pat yourself on the back and say "see there's nothing wrong with Reason" even though I never said there was.

PS. and also the mixed aiff in Reason sounds different to the working sound as I'm mixing. The mixdown has softened and fattened the snare in the upper midrange. Consequently the ProTools stem is also fatter.
But of course, I can't play you the session to AB can I? There's only a stereo mix to listen to, which isn't the same thing.

[8cros]

OK all you null test fans, here's an example of a null test that's obviously failed. What can you tell me about the original files?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/147 ... xample.aif

Perhaps the delay is 1 sample.

[8cros]

Don't know where the post went.. . but here, i took time out of the day to compose a "test"

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... Reason.aif

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... oTools.aif

There you go, no plugins on the ProTools import, no master bus processing in either.

But that's not replicating my process. I do not work like that, so that's not helping me at all.

But I'm sure you can pat yourself on the back and say "see there's nothing wrong with Reason" even though I never said there was.

PS. and also the mixed aiff in Reason sounds different to the working sound as I'm mixing. The mixdown has softened and fattened the snare in the upper midrange. Consequently the ProTools stem is also fatter.
But of course, I can't play you the session to AB can I? There's only a stereo mix to listen to, which isn't the same thing.

You laugh at us?

These two files are different, but they have an identical guitar solo.

[selig]

Don't know where the post went.. . but here, i took time out of the day to compose a "test"

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... Reason.aif

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... oTools.aif

There you go, no plugins on the ProTools import, no master bus processing in either.

But that's not replicating my process. I do not work like that, so that's not helping me at all.

But I'm sure you can pat yourself on the back and say "see there's nothing wrong with Reason" even though I never said there was.

PS. and also the mixed aiff in Reason sounds different to the working sound as I'm mixing. The mixdown has softened and fattened the snare in the upper midrange. Consequently the ProTools stem is also fatter.
But of course, I can't play you the session to AB can I? There's only a stereo mix to listen to, which isn't the same thing.

How can you say it's not helping you - have you learned anything? If the files are the same, you learned that mixing in Reason is no different than any other DAW. If they are different, you learned that one app is doing something the other is not - and since you prefer PT I'd suggest ditching Reason and working in PT.

Not sure why you even asked "why" in the first place. It's not like you don't have a choice - just do what works best for you: make music in Reason, bounce stems, and mix in PT and you're golden!



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[8cros]

Don't know where the post went.. . but here, i took time out of the day to compose a "test"

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... Reason.aif

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... oTools.aif

There you go, no plugins on the ProTools import, no master bus processing in either.

But that's not replicating my process. I do not work like that, so that's not helping me at all.

But I'm sure you can pat yourself on the back and say "see there's nothing wrong with Reason" even though I never said there was.

PS. and also the mixed aiff in Reason sounds different to the working sound as I'm mixing. The mixdown has softened and fattened the snare in the upper midrange. Consequently the ProTools stem is also fatter.
But of course, I can't play you the session to AB can I? There's only a stereo mix to listen to, which isn't the same thing.

I'd rather just show and I will not comment on it. In order not to spoil the transfer.

[Riverman]

Don't know where the post went.. . but here, i took time out of the day to compose a "test"

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... Reason.aif

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... oTools.aif

There you go, no plugins on the ProTools import, no master bus processing in either.

But that's not replicating my process. I do not work like that, so that's not helping me at all.

But I'm sure you can pat yourself on the back and say "see there's nothing wrong with Reason" even though I never said there was.

PS. and also the mixed aiff in Reason sounds different to the working sound as I'm mixing. The mixdown has softened and fattened the snare in the upper midrange. Consequently the ProTools stem is also fatter.
But of course, I can't play you the session to AB can I? There's only a stereo mix to listen to, which isn't the same thing.

How can you say it's not helping you - have you learned anything? If the files are the same, you learned that mixing in Reason is no different than any other DAW. If they are different, you learned that one app is doing something the other is not - and since you prefer PT I'd suggest ditching Reason and working in PT.

Not sure why you even asked "why" in the first place. It's not like you don't have a choice - just do what works best for you: make music in Reason, bounce stems, and mix in PT and you're golden!



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Of course it's different. Obviously the plugins are different. There's no Waves Gold bundle RE. The experience is completely different. Though I love creating in it, when I'm mixing - especially with say a 20 vocal channels group - I feel like I'm fighting Reason to get a good sound. Constantly going back and needing to tweak the eq or compression or reverb levels again & again. In Pro Tools that's just not the case. It's very frustrating.

[Riverman]

Don't know where the post went.. . but here, i took time out of the day to compose a "test"

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... Reason.aif

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... oTools.aif

There you go, no plugins on the ProTools import, no master bus processing in either.

But that's not replicating my process. I do not work like that, so that's not helping me at all.

But I'm sure you can pat yourself on the back and say "see there's nothing wrong with Reason" even though I never said there was.

PS. and also the mixed aiff in Reason sounds different to the working sound as I'm mixing. The mixdown has softened and fattened the snare in the upper midrange. Consequently the ProTools stem is also fatter.
But of course, I can't play you the session to AB can I? There's only a stereo mix to listen to, which isn't the same thing.

You laugh at us?


These two files are different, but they have an identical guitar solo.

What are you talking about?

[8cros]

Why did you do it?
Your examples

I do not see any sense in your questions.
Everyone can watch the video. Your examples of a conscious attempt to enter other people astray.

And of course you're not a Fighting with Reason, because you're lying.

[8cros]

There is no difference, except your indiscriminate manipulation.

[drloop]

OK all you null test fans, here's an example of a null test that's obviously failed. What can you tell me about the original files?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/147 ... xample.aif

When we did the summing test years back there was one DAW that did not null, that was Harrison mixbus, the analogue thing it does is always on.
And there was one other DAW that added one sample in the beginning of track, don´t remember which one.

Could it be one of these things happening?

[Gulale]

Ok guys why do you want the comparison to be similar? Isn't that boaring if they are similar? We change a DAW for a change. I for once have done this comparison by ears about the SSL EQ vs the Studio One EQ the curve is not similar. That means I will get different sound than Studio One. That's not a bad thing from my test I loved the Reason SSL on drum but it all depends on test. Which one you like? there is no need to fighting. It is good to identify which one you like and chose. So my advice is. Choose.

It is not about which one is the best. It's about which one you like and use what works best for you. My advice is compose write your music in Reason and mix it in Protools. You will have a vast collection of high class VST in your disposal with a cheaper price and even free.

One thing we shouldn't under estimate is the power of inspiration. Which one inspire you to mix a song? Writing a song and mixing is two totally different things.

To me more or less Reason is made for beginners with a limited band EQ with fixed Q value of choices which enables users not to make a mistakes. it doesn't get too narrow and you won't be too critical. It is very hard to make huge mistakes in Reason than other DAWs with unlimited choice of bands and Q values.

When you don't like the sound of signal processors in any DAWs, you are not criticizing the DAW IMHO. We are criticizing the engineer behind the development. So, when someone is not happy with a sound of a specific DAW which means he hasn't agreed how the engineer implemented the idea in that DAW.

I believe when I use a DAW I'm using the contribution of an engineer behind the scene and its up to me to chose the implementation of that engineer. And my advice to the user, use what works for you rather than looking for a solution. Deep down you are using the test of the engineer behind the development of Reason.

[Gorgon]

I said "I feel like I'm always fighting with Reason to get a mix, and when I import into ProTools it starts sounding better immediately".
That has nothing to do with 0's and 1's or science or anything else.

You're completely hopeless.

[Logismos]

Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

The purpose of a null test is to separate the hard data from the possible audio 'deceptions'.
If you have imported like 10stems into reason and not touched a single fader or plugin/rack unit then in theory they should be identical on playback to protools.
Maybe close your eyes 1st,and then listen,because even visual elements can cause a distortion in perception.
When I 1st started using reason,I had similar thoughts about the internal sound and exporting-but I just use it,and can get a competitive mix from it,just as well as anything else I use now.
I think some others just like to beat this topic up and those that start them.
If there is no hard data to compare then this is why others may say "it's all in your head" type of comments... sigh.

[Djstarski]

Don't know where the post went.. . but here, i took time out of the day to compose a "test"

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... Reason.aif

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... oTools.aif

There you go, no plugins on the ProTools import, no master bus processing in either.

But that's not replicating my process. I do not work like that, so that's not helping me at all.

But I'm sure you can pat yourself on the back and say "see there's nothing wrong with Reason" even though I never said there was.

PS. and also the mixed aiff in Reason sounds different to the working sound as I'm mixing. The mixdown has softened and fattened the snare in the upper midrange. Consequently the ProTools stem is also fatter.
But of course, I can't play you the session to AB can I? There's only a stereo mix to listen to, which isn't the same thing.

I'd rather just show and I will not comment on it. In order not to spoil the transfer.

I do not understand this test . I thought only two files were needed , one from Reason and one from Pro Tools . Are all these files necessary ?

[8cros]

Don't know where the post went.. . but here, i took time out of the day to compose a "test"

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... Reason.aif

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... oTools.aif

There you go, no plugins on the ProTools import, no master bus processing in either.

But that's not replicating my process. I do not work like that, so that's not helping me at all.

But I'm sure you can pat yourself on the back and say "see there's nothing wrong with Reason" even though I never said there was.

PS. and also the mixed aiff in Reason sounds different to the working sound as I'm mixing. The mixdown has softened and fattened the snare in the upper midrange. Consequently the ProTools stem is also fatter.
But of course, I can't play you the session to AB can I? There's only a stereo mix to listen to, which isn't the same thing.

I'd rather just show and I will not comment on it. In order not to spoil the transfer.

I do not understand this test . I thought only two files were needed , one from Reason and one from Pro Tools . Are all these files necessary ?

You did not understand?

It is only 2 files. There's a part of the mix sounds PT invert the phase. And louder by more than 9 dB.

[Djstarski]

Maybe its me and if i`m wrong please forgive me . I thought

1 You import an audio file into Pro Tools .
2 You import the same file into Reason .
3 Export both files out with no added adjustments
4 Put both files in either DAW PT or Reason .
5 Flip the phase on one of the files .
6 Observe your result .

If this is wrong please let me know so i have the correct way of doing a null test .

[8cros]

Maybe its me and if i`m wrong please forgive me . I thought

1 You import an audio file into Pro Tools .
2 You import the same file into Reason .
3 Export both files out with no added adjustments
4 Put both files in either DAW PT or Reason .
5 Flip the phase on one of the files .
6 Observe your result .

If this is wrong please let me know so i have the correct way of doing a null test .

I was also surprised.

[selig]

Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

The purpose of a null test is to separate the hard data from the possible audio 'deceptions'.
If you have imported like 10stems into reason and not touched a single fader or plugin/rack unit then in theory they should be identical on playback to protools.
Maybe close your eyes 1st,and then listen,because even visual elements can cause a distortion in perception.
When I 1st started using reason,I had similar thoughts about the internal sound and exporting-but I just use it,and can get a competitive mix from it,just as well as anything else I use now.
I think some others just like to beat this topic up and those that start them.
If there is no hard data to compare then this is why others may say "it's all in your head" type of comments... sigh.

You just made an "it's all in you head" type comment above, then appear to criticize others for their "it's all in your head" type comments. Maybe it's time to wind down or even close this thread?

To review:
The OP stated he heard a difference between Reason and PT when nothing at all was done, others provided evidence to the contrary and pointed out where his original comparison was flawed. Now we have folks calling each other liars.

I believe everyone has enough evidence to make up their own minds. If anyone has anything more to offer on topic and on a positive note, say it now. Otherwise I feel we should all agree to disagree.

BTW, the answer to my question: "What can you tell me about the original files" is (in an absolute way) "NOTHING". In a more specific way all you can know is that there is "some" difference in timing, level, EQ/phase, distortion, FX, etc. You can't even draw reliable conclusions from the level of the resultant audio after a null test - if it's caused by a delay then how much delay will create how much level resulting from a null test?

In the test in question you may be able to narrow it down to an EQ/phase, delay, or any tonal change. And that's my point: Drawing any conclusion from a null test is fraught with problems.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Riverman]

Why did you do it?
Your examples

I do not see any sense in your questions.
Everyone can watch the video. Your examples of a conscious attempt to enter other people astray.

And of course you're not a Fighting with Reason, because you're lying.

Lying? What about? Using Reason? The example I last posted is using Reason drums, Reason pianos, Reason basses, and Soundcell's Bitbumper, (plus a factory shaker). If you had those refills you'd recognize the sounds.

Did anyone null test the last example I posted btw?

[Riverman]

Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

The purpose of a null test is to separate the hard data from the possible audio 'deceptions'.
If you have imported like 10stems into reason and not touched a single fader or plugin/rack unit then in theory they should be identical on playback to protools.
Maybe close your eyes 1st,and then listen,because even visual elements can cause a distortion in perception.
When I 1st started using reason,I had similar thoughts about the internal sound and exporting-but I just use it,and can get a competitive mix from it,just as well as anything else I use now.
I think some others just like to beat this topic up and those that start them.
If there is no hard data to compare then this is why others may say "it's all in your head" type of comments... sigh.

You just made an "it's all in you head" type comment above, then appear to criticize others for their "it's all in your head" type comments. Maybe it's time to wind down or even close this thread?

To review:
The OP stated he heard a difference between Reason and PT when nothing at all was done, others provided evidence to the contrary and pointed out where his original comparison was flawed. Now we have folks calling each other liars.

I believe everyone has enough evidence to make up their own minds. If anyone has anything more to offer on topic and on a positive note, say it now. Otherwise I feel we should all agree to disagree.

BTW, the answer to my question: "What can you tell me about the original files" is (in an absolute way) "NOTHING". In a more specific way all you can know is that there is "some" difference in timing, level, EQ/phase, distortion, FX, etc. You can't even draw reliable conclusions from the level of the resultant audio after a null test - if it's caused by a delay then how much delay will create how much level resulting from a null test?

In the test in question you may be able to narrow it down to an EQ/phase, delay, or any tonal change. And that's my point: Drawing any conclusion from a null test is fraught with problems.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Why are you persisting with this straw man?
Are you even trying to understand what I've been saying?
You're arguing against a position I never had.
You're speaking past me and ignoring my repeated attempts to correct a misunderstanding.
Why?

[8cros]

Why did you do it?
Your examples

I do not see any sense in your questions.
Everyone can watch the video. Your examples of a conscious attempt to enter other people astray.

And of course you're not a Fighting with Reason, because you're lying.

Lying? What about? Using Reason? The example I last posted is using Reason drums, Reason pianos, Reason basses, and Soundcell's Bitbumper, (plus a factory shaker). If you had those refills you'd recognize the sounds.

Did anyone null test the last example I posted btw?

I have tested your files.

[Riverman]

Don't know where the post went.. . but here, i took time out of the day to compose a "test"

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... Reason.aif

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... oTools.aif

There you go, no plugins on the ProTools import, no master bus processing in either.

But that's not replicating my process. I do not work like that, so that's not helping me at all.

But I'm sure you can pat yourself on the back and say "see there's nothing wrong with Reason" even though I never said there was.

PS. and also the mixed aiff in Reason sounds different to the working sound as I'm mixing. The mixdown has softened and fattened the snare in the upper midrange. Consequently the ProTools stem is also fatter.
But of course, I can't play you the session to AB can I? There's only a stereo mix to listen to, which isn't the same thing.

I'm not getting silence when I flip the phase on one of these files btw

Kick disappears but snare and reverbs and some other stuff are still there.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... Reason.aif

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... oTools.aif

[Riverman]

Why did you do it?
Your examples

I do not see any sense in your questions.
Everyone can watch the video. Your examples of a conscious attempt to enter other people astray.

And of course you're not a Fighting with Reason, because you're lying.

Lying? What about? Using Reason? The example I last posted is using Reason drums, Reason pianos, Reason basses, and Soundcell's Bitbumper, (plus a factory shaker). If you had those refills you'd recognize the sounds.

Did anyone null test the last example I posted btw?

I have tested your files.

And?