Unknown Waveforms and Values in Reason

[Captain Boyfriend]

I'm not sure how to measure LFO waveforms in an instance when you don't know what a particular one is--in this case what the LFO on the CF-101 and the LFO in the Chorus module in Thor are. Has anyone determined what these LFOs actually are? I always assumed they were triangle or maybe sine waves, but doing a weird experiment in another thread led me to believe Thor's is a 4-step pyramid LFO's (I'm not sure what their actual name is, I mean like like #14 in Thor's LFO banks).

Another question I have about the CF-101 is what the delay values actually correspond to in milliseconds.

I've been trying to build some delay line-based. multi-voice spatial effect combis so it helps to know what I'm working with.

[orthodox]

I believe the LFO waveform of CF-101 is triangle. It can be chopped when the modulated delay value reaches its boundaries.

The delay values for CF-101 can be calculated as: delay_in_ms = 1/28 + 3/19 * a, where 'a' is the delay automation value from 1 to 127.
When a==0, the delay is exactly 5 audio samples, i.e. it is dependent on the current sample rate.

Haven't tested Thor yet.

[Raveshaper]

Excellent work as always, orthodox.

But I don't feel alone in begging the question of why we need to use mathematic and scientific genius gifted to the very few just to know what the hell different settings mean. I mean, seriously. Why is this how it is? What happened, was Sweden embargoed from receiving computers of any kind until 1999? I know this is an unproductive line of discussion but if people like you didn't exist, we would all be SOL.

[RandomSkratch]

What happened, was Sweden embargoed from receiving computers of any kind until 1999?

Maybe they're all just really really smart over there and to them it's like how we know you need to put your underwear on before your pants...

[Raveshaper]

I have no doubt they are very smart. I know that. But this whole situation is just bonkers to me when I think about it for more than a second.

Imagine if someone printed a newspaper or published a magazine but all of the stories were simply made up of various numbers spaced apart instead of words. If you were smart enough to factor out and reduce each number to discover what letter or word they represented, you would know what the article said, but because it's hidden behind this abstract numeric barrier the information is ultimately lost. Nice large pictures with a few numbers underneath. Not much information there unless you are lucky enough to know how to burn up valuable time cataloging what should be made obvious.
(The ironic hypocrisy that I am burning up valuable time complaining rather than creating is not lost on me.)

Or what about a car whose dials displayed some sort of arbitrary information that you needed to study a specific science to be able to read.
Or a door knob on your house that worked like a safe, but you couldn't tell what any position was in reference to any other position, so it was virtually impossible to get into your house.

The point is that if anything else of any other kind was designed with this approach it would be unacceptable. In context, the information is simply not negotiable. Period.

[RandomSkratch]

[Yonatan]

Im swede but dont get a sht about what you talking about. I can understand EQ or compressor etc. ..but when it comes to lfo and all synth details, I get lost.

Is it constructed simpler in other DAWs ? PH is known to try to simplify but in this case it might be the opposite?

[Puniho]

What happened, was Sweden embargoed from receiving computers of any kind until 1999?

Maybe they're all just really really smart over there and to them it's like how we know you need to put your underwear on before your pants...

This is a funny answer, but just going by all the recent marketing hype from Props, emphasizing that their philosophy is to make music software for musicians, rather than say, geeks, it kind of invalidates your point. :O)

[afrodude]

I think this is to the "musical" nature that we find in reason.
Most if not all devices by propellerhead use the number system since i think they want you to to create anf mix music using your ear. That is why a lot of devices also dont let you input dB number e.g the SSL mixer.
And it makes perfect sense in Reason since they come with the analog modular rack interpretation.
Back in the day you couldnt set your equipment to exactly any value unless it was a stepped device. You had to use your ears to hear if they outcome was the way you wanted.
The same reason why API plugin emulations keep there stepped behaviour, sonce they are stayong true to the original.

[Captain Boyfriend]

I believe the LFO waveform of CF-101 is triangle. It can be chopped when the modulated delay value reaches its boundaries.

The delay values for CF-101 can be calculated as: delay_in_ms = 1/28 + 3/19 * a, where 'a' is the delay automation value from 1 to 127.
When a==0, the delay is exactly 5 audio samples, i.e. it is dependent on the current sample rate.

Haven't tested Thor yet.

Brilliant, thank you so much!

[Captain Boyfriend]

Is there a trick to phase invert CF-101's internal LFO, or is that strictly off limits?

I guess what all my questions boil down to is I need to learn how to build basic delay lines in Reason that are as modulatable as possible. I'm mostly trying to program some multi-voiced, delay-based, dimensional modulation patches but have found it surprisingly challenging. I suppose I could just buy the Chenille RE but I find it's usually more rewarding to build something myself with the core Reason tools.

[8cros]

Is there a trick to phase invert CF-101's internal LFO, or is that strictly off limits?

I guess what all my questions boil down to is I need to learn how to build basic delay lines in Reason that are as modulatable as possible. I'm mostly trying to program some multi-voiced, delay-based, dimensional modulation patches but have found it surprisingly challenging. I suppose I could just buy the Chenille RE but I find it's usually more rewarding to build something myself with the core Reason tools.

If you connect mono input (one wire), you get a stereo LFO in CF101.

And do not forget about the phase inversion when using CF101 for the delay.

[Captain Boyfriend]

Is there a trick to phase invert CF-101's internal LFO, or is that strictly off limits?

I guess what all my questions boil down to is I need to learn how to build basic delay lines in Reason that are as modulatable as possible. I'm mostly trying to program some multi-voiced, delay-based, dimensional modulation patches but have found it surprisingly challenging. I suppose I could just buy the Chenille RE but I find it's usually more rewarding to build something myself with the core Reason tools.

If you connect mono input (one wire), you get a stereo LFO in CF101.

And do not forget about the phase inversion when using CF101 for the delay.

Ah, does that mean when I'm running a mono input to CF101, two CVs are generated that have an inverse phase relationship, sent to its stereo outputs respectively?

edit: also, total beginner question, but if I run the audio output of a CF-101 (send mode on/fully wet) into Thor to flip the phase of the audio signal, does that also flip the CV phase? I'm guessing that it does but just want to make sure.

[orthodox]

edit: also, total beginner question, but if I run the audio output of a CF-101 (send mode on/fully wet) into Thor to flip the phase of the audio signal, does that also flip the CV phase? I'm guessing that it does but just want to make sure.

Send mode means there is no subtracting of the original signal ("comb-" filter), just the delay.
The internal CF-101 LFO is applied to stereo output channels in the opposite phase, that is when the left channel delay is at the maximum, the right is at the minimum. This is not the same as flipping the audio signal phase.

[8cros]

edit: also, total beginner question, but if I run the audio output of a CF-101 (send mode on/fully wet) into Thor to flip the phase of the audio signal, does that also flip the CV phase? I'm guessing that it does but just want to make sure.

Send mode means there is no subtracting of the original signal ("comb-" filter), just the delay.
The internal CF-101 LFO is applied to stereo output channels in the opposite phase, that is when the left channel delay is at the maximum, the right is at the minimum. This is not the same as flipping the audio signal phase.

Send mode - which means that the signal is subtracted from the main signal in the send mode.
Those. phase inverted delay.

[kloeckno]

Excellent work as always, orthodox.

But I don't feel alone in begging the question of why we need to use mathematic and scientific genius gifted to the very few just to know what the hell different settings mean. I mean, seriously. Why is this how it is? What happened, was Sweden embargoed from receiving computers of any kind until 1999? I know this is an unproductive line of discussion but if people like you didn't exist, we would all be SOL.

Huh? People have been using those FX since they were introduced with no problems. Orthodox simply enjoys understanding how things work, but it is not necessary to know those details to use those devices in a musical context. I've never absolutely needed to know the delay time of a flanger, you set it so it sounds cool, and that's it.

Some people like to know how things work at a higher level, that is why I use Linux and build my own MIDI devices with microcontrollers. But to imply that Propellerheads are behind the times because they don't reveal all the nerdy math and details behind their devices is a bit of an over exaggeration. Reason is a musical product, not a spreadsheet!

[8cros]

Reason is a musical product, not a spreadsheet!

I have heard it many times. So what you're saying like a call to kill the astronauts, because they climb up to heaven. And it is does not like God..

[RandomSkratch]

Some people like to know how things work at a higher level, that is why I use Linux and build my own MIDI devices with microcontrollers. But to imply that Propellerheads are behind the times because they don't reveal all the nerdy math and details behind their devices is a bit of an over exaggeration. Reason is a musical product, not a spreadsheet!

It's not that they need to reveal all the nerdy math but rather change the way feedback is provided. Some things actually specify ms for example (Thor envelope settings) but others show an arbitrary value (Subtractor envelope values). Why not be consistent with showing a value of the actual unit. Additionally providing the means of finding out these values on our own (CV levels and shapes) without guessing or requiring advanced math degrees is very beneficial to those who want to know either just because or it helps in creation. I want to know much more than what's presented because I work better when I can see exactly what I'm working with.

[kloeckno]

It's not that they need to reveal all the nerdy math but rather change the way feedback is provided. Some things actually specify ms for example (Thor envelope settings) but others show an arbitrary value (Subtractor envelope values). Why not be consistent with showing a value of the actual unit. Additionally providing the means of finding out these values on our own (CV levels and shapes) without guessing or requiring advanced math degrees is very beneficial to those who want to know either just because or it helps in creation. I want to know much more than what's presented because I work better when I can see exactly what I'm working with.

You can get feedback, very easily. Just use an external LFO and connect an RE like Skope. If the program uses a hardware paradigm, they're not going to have a display like Massive or some modern plugin. But the option is there.
Like I said, in my opinion things like a flanger don't necessarily need more info about the delay time in MS, you set them by ear. If you want more options, there are tons of more advanced ones in the RE shop that let you see the MS and you can get an external LFO. That can all be viewed on Skope!
I just don't see why it's an issue...

[Captain Boyfriend]

edit: also, total beginner question, but if I run the audio output of a CF-101 (send mode on/fully wet) into Thor to flip the phase of the audio signal, does that also flip the CV phase? I'm guessing that it does but just want to make sure.

Send mode means there is no subtracting of the original signal ("comb-" filter), just the delay.
The internal CF-101 LFO is applied to stereo output channels in the opposite phase, that is when the left channel delay is at the maximum, the right is at the minimum. This is not the same as flipping the audio signal phase.

Nice, I can flip the audio phase of one of CF-101s outputs without flipping its LFO. I actually got too excited by this info and made a combi instead of replying. Thank you for the help!

I don't think it's a big deal that this info isn't readily available. I've been using Reason for a few years and have only now needed to find out, after all.

[Captain Boyfriend]

I believe the LFO waveform of CF-101 is triangle. It can be chopped when the modulated delay value reaches its boundaries.

The delay values for CF-101 can be calculated as: delay_in_ms = 1/28 + 3/19 * a, where 'a' is the delay automation value from 1 to 127.
When a==0, the delay is exactly 5 audio samples, i.e. it is dependent on the current sample rate.

Haven't tested Thor yet.

Just another quick question about this, to make sure I understand the correct order of operations... Is the "1/28 + 3/19" part of the equation calculated before multiplying it with a (MIDI value of delay time knob), or am I following PEMDAS here by multiplying 3/19 by a and then adding that value with 1/28?

[orthodox]

I believe the LFO waveform of CF-101 is triangle. It can be chopped when the modulated delay value reaches its boundaries.

The delay values for CF-101 can be calculated as: delay_in_ms = 1/28 + 3/19 * a, where 'a' is the delay automation value from 1 to 127.
When a==0, the delay is exactly 5 audio samples, i.e. it is dependent on the current sample rate.

Haven't tested Thor yet.

Just another quick question about this, to make sure I understand the correct order of operations... Is the "1/28 + 3/19" part of the equation calculated before multiplying it with a (MIDI value of delay time knob), or am I following PEMDAS here by multiplying 3/19 by a and then adding that value with 1/28?

Of course, the addition is done last in accordance with the precedence of operations.

[Captain Boyfriend]

I believe the LFO waveform of CF-101 is triangle. It can be chopped when the modulated delay value reaches its boundaries.

The delay values for CF-101 can be calculated as: delay_in_ms = 1/28 + 3/19 * a, where 'a' is the delay automation value from 1 to 127.
When a==0, the delay is exactly 5 audio samples, i.e. it is dependent on the current sample rate.

Haven't tested Thor yet.

Just another quick question about this, to make sure I understand the correct order of operations... Is the "1/28 + 3/19" part of the equation calculated before multiplying it with a (MIDI value of delay time knob), or am I following PEMDAS here by multiplying 3/19 by a and then adding that value with 1/28?

Of course, the addition is done last in accordance with the precedence of operations.

Thanks. I was very, very bad at algebra, as you can see. I appreciate it.