ReWire Master: 15 years of silence

[JustSomeGuy]

must defend my DAW's honor and fight the critics!

[joeyluck]

Sorry for playing into this, but was just trying to put things into perspective...
You defend and boast this, someone else defends this. I see no difference. Except only this is a Reason forum. And with a username of 'JustSomeGuy' I'm starting to think you are just here to cause problems? This stops here please.

[selig]

Myself, I've been using plugins since DAY ONE back when Pro Tools first introduced the concept, and I have NEVER purchased or used a single VST in all those years. OTOH, I've used (and spent THOUSANDS of dollars on) TDM, RTAS, AAX, AU, and RE plugins through all this time, so I'm not one that believes VSTs rule the world or are in any way spell the "end" of all the other formats for any reason.

Everything I've said about "VST", I mean about RTAS, AAX, and AU too. All in a different league from RE. You didn't need "VST" in particular to get convolution reverb ten years ago. RTAS, AAX, and AU did it too. Everyone did convolution reverb ten years ago -- except Propellerhead's awesome proprietary format.

As for hosts adopting VST, the two other DAWs I've used the most (and actually owned myself) over the years have never directly supported VSTs, and like Reason probably NEVER WILL! These two apps, Pro Tools and Logic, are arguably at the top of the DAW list for many folks, and their lack of VST support has not destroyed them in any way I can see (so far, at least).

I don't see RTAS, AAX, AU as lesser than VST. With that cleared up, though, my points about Propellerhead still stand.

OK, we seem to be talking past each other here, but no worries. We all have our opinions!

[selig]

if he doesn't, you don't have to keep using them.

lol, thats just like saying "if it doesn't work in Reason you don't have to keep using it" xD

I'll give Propellerhead credit where it's due: No Reason user ever had a convolution-reverb crash on in him from 2005 - 2014, a period when VST users may have had occasional crashes from convolution reverbs.

This intentionally doesn't make sense, I know, but come on - what's your point? What are you trying to communicate here? The facts are that yes Reason has totally dropped the ball in some ways over the years, and ALSO that it's a very popular music making platform. You seem to be saying it CAN'T be successful with it's approach, and yet the facts say otherwise. Am I missing something here?

Not every DAW needs to cover every angle, and not every DAW is for every user.

[Dante]

What about this Scenario : Through the current growth of Rack Extensions and their inherent stability, market share of RE vs VSTi grows to a point where Prop Shop return on investment (time) becomes more attractive to developers.

Therefore more and more VST developers build RE - either new, or ports of their VST - would not Project SAM and TubeTech already be examples of this ?

I see more RE being added to market faster than any other single VST line !

I say propheads stick to what they are doing - if it ain't broke, why fix it ?

[EnochLight]

That said, I don't exactly know what we're talking about anymore, you seem to jump back and forth between your own and the Props reasoning. I am not talking about the Props reasoning but my own - it may well be that what you stated now is the Props reasoning, I don't know. To me adding ReWire master would only do good for both Reason and the Props.

As far as I am concerned, my reasoning is what I perceive to be Props reasoning; not jumping back and forth between anything. Anyway, we have a fundamental disagreement on the validity of Reason as a ReWire Master, is all.

[EnochLight]

Reaper's Justin (CEO) once made an often-quoted statement that Reaper would never support VST3. He worded it more strongly than Propellerheads ever did (Propellerheads has said VST "sucks" but they've never said they won't support it in the future). And now Reaper supports VST3.

Does Justin/Cockos have a proprietary plugin format and shop distribution to protect? Last time I checked, no.. no they don't. Their only source of income is selling Reaper licenses.

To be worth anything, Propellerhead's proprietary plugin format would have to have advantages over VST's, but you've only suggested it has "very little" advantage over VST:

... if Reason did ReWire Master, VST devs would have very little reason to port to Reason,

You're assuming that RE-technology's supposed advantages over VST-technology are "very little reason" for VST devs to port to RE?

Not only do we seem to be talking past each other, you seem to be grossly misinterpreting what I am writing. I never suggested RE has "very little" advantage over VST; what I said is:

I don't buy RE because it's a "superior technology". I don't really care, in fact. I buy them because they are available in Reason. Now.

Let me say that again: I buy RE because they are available in Reason now. Also, to be worth anything, it has to be available in Reason now and people need to be willing to pay money for the plugins. I'm not sure if it's a newsflash to you or not, but things seem to be going swimmingly for Propellerhead since their (RE) introduction years ago. Would you not equate that success as being worth something?

Anyway, getting back to the point: there's no ReWire Master in Reason because Propellerhead don't want to give VST devs a reason to not port their shit as an RE. Simples. You don't have to agree with it, you don't have to like it, but there it is.

[Tincture]

I'm sure somebody must have said this... Apologies if so... REs work to props formula / shell so don't make the program crash. Reason could crash if used as Rewire master I'm guessing.

Reason's stability and intuitive nature (would also be stretched/lost using VSTs) are its biggest selling point for me.

[ljekio]

Reason could crash if used as Rewire master I'm guessing.

Simple answer - it could not.
For example, I can easily remove the Rebirth through Task Manager when it is together with Reason and nothing bad will happen. Try it yourself.
And by the way why no one is worried about the possibility of a crash at the rewire slave?

[normen]

As far as I am concerned, my reasoning is what I perceive to be Props reasoning; not jumping back and forth between anything. Anyway, we have a fundamental disagreement on the validity of Reason as a ReWire Master, is all.

This is the disparity I was wondering about:

You're not making a compelling argument as to why I wouldn't want Reason as a ReWire Master. The fact that various instruments in VST-land have different ideology has nothing to do with one being able to utilize it, at least it doesn't stop me from using them.

I stand firm in the stance that the vast majority of VST devs would completely disregard any product porting, and for good reason. I've not read a compelling reason from anyone to convince me otherwise, sorry.

But its all good, you clarified what you meant about the last part of our discussion now, thanks

[Tincture]

Reason could crash if used as Rewire master I'm guessing.

Simple answer - it could not.
For example, I can easily remove the Rebirth through Task Manager when it is together with Reason and nothing bad will happen. Try it yourself.
And by the way why no one is worried about the possibility of a crash at the rewire slave?

Ahh ok, thanks for setting me straight.

[chimp_spanner]

Hey, I wish my PC would run Mac applications. I wish Logic was cross platform. I wish that my iPhone could access the Google Play store. I wish that my Xbox played Playstation games. But there are perfectly understandable, commercially sound reasons why those things won't happen. No-one is obliged to make those things possible and companies are free to look after their interests as they see fit, as we're free to vote with our wallets and change DAW if these limitations are really an obstacle to making music.

My idea, and I've suggested it elsewhere, is to make the Reason Rack a VST/AU plugin, with audio I/O and a means of converting host automation data into CV (and CV as MIDI out). That way you could use Reason's plugins and all your third party Re's in your sequencer alongside your VST's, run audio through it, do whatever you want. It wouldn't in any way hurt Re development because it would still be a semi-closed system of sorts, and there would be advantages to writing plugins designed for the rack over VST/AU (specifically in terms of CV modulation, sequencing, the modular nature of it, etc.).

I think that would be a hugely successful move for PH. It'd bypass the need for ReWire entirely (who's gonna tell me they enjoy R8's sequencer over Cubase 8?). It'd generate heaps of new revenue. And it'd kick all the ass.

[KEVMOVE02]

The pursuit of "one size fits all" or "the swiss army knife" of DAWS will only result in a perpetual cycle of disappointment and unfulfilled dreams. Why expect one company to make "a DAW to rule them all", when you can just build a system that incorporates all the tools you think you need to make music? While there are creative disciplines that benefit from a single platform approach, audio production is not one of them. I think Propellerhead spoke clearly on what they want to provide to their customers. You can use Reason as a standalone platform that is capable of "concept to creation" audio production, or you can use Reason as a sound source in another environment. If this doesn't fit your design paradigm, I don't think Propellerhead harbors any ill will; they would prefer that you use something that inspires and supports your musical endeavors. The insistence that a particular product become all things to all people is not only unrealistic, its unachievable. I guess the beauty of the "global economy" is that anyone that discovers an unfulfilled need has the opportunity to finance and create a product that fills that need, then pray that enough consumers agree with you that your company is profitable. I'm sure there is no shortage of entrepreneurs who discovered that while many people are more than willing to tell you what type of products you should make, very few affirm their advice with a purchase.

[TheFesta]

I'll just go on record and state: it is very likely that you will never, ever, see ReWire Master nor native VST support in Reason.

Your predictions about what the Propellerhead CEO will decide in the future.

Truth be told, I've been called worse things than soothsayer.

Reaper's Justin (CEO) once made an often-quoted statement that Reaper would never support VST3. He worded it more strongly than Propellerheads ever did (Propellerheads has said VST "sucks" but they've never said they won't support it in the future). And now Reaper supports VST3.

Does Justin/Cockos have a proprietary plugin format and shop distribution to protect? Last time I checked, no.. no they don't. Their only source of income is selling Reaper licenses.

In fact I did the opposite - make a point about why making Reason a ReWire master would make sense. You said it would somehow "cannibalize" REs, I said it wouldn't because for these instruments that could be integrated via ReWire its very improbable they'd ever become REs. My first post in this thread was "+1 for ReWire master"...?

Let's perform a thought experiment. Let's assume that instead of doing one RE as a pet project, you don't have a day-job. Instead, your entire source of income is derived by creating/selling VST, and you do quite well at it.

Then there's Reason, and you have products that users of that DAW keep asking you to port, and you've been mulling over doing it or not because you just weren't sure the return on investment would be worth your time, despite the fact that - so you hear - your plugins will be "un-piratable" if ported to RE. Still, it's a shitload of work for you and then you have to part with a good percentage of your potential sales just to have it sold through the Prop Shop.

Then suddenly, Propellerhead introduce ReWire Master!

For every Reason user that now contacts you for your VST as an RE, your logical answer is to say: you can already have "Bang'n Synth Pro" in Reason via ReWire Master and a variety of free VST hosts out there. Buy it from me direct!

So again, please tell me why on earth Propellerhead would want to invite all of the well-known and unknown VST devs alike to say "forget RE's" instead, when they can get their products in Reason - for free - via ReWire Master - without ever paying a dime to Propellerhead? In this scenario, realize that there will still be some people/devs who create and release RE's, but I stand firm in the stance that the vast majority of VST devs would completely disregard any product porting, and for good reason. I've not read a compelling reason from anyone to convince me otherwise, sorry.

Well said, couldnt agree more.

[EpiGenetik]

forgive me if I'm not getting what you are saying but how does the emi carry audio ???

It doesn't make any attempt to do so - there is recognition that this is not essential for synchronisation, or for using the Reason sequencer to play external instruments.

The idea that the audio must be piped has been ditched as a redundant design.

[EpiGenetik]

"near real-time"

.....and there be those rose tinted spectacles I was talking about.

ReWire was the best design in 2001, considering the DAW landscape at that point, this is far from being the case now. The whole concept of streaming 64 tracks of audio has been outdated by the concept of "why bother?".

Entertain me though - give me a realistic scenario for why this is good for you, and we'll see if I can come up with an obvious better set-up.

Ta

[submonsterz]

Hey, I wish my PC would run Mac applications. I wish Logic was cross platform. I wish that my iPhone could access the Google Play store. I wish that my Xbox played Playstation games. But there are perfectly understandable, commercially sound reasons why those things won't happen. No-one is obliged to make those things possible and companies are free to look after their interests as they see fit, as we're free to vote with our wallets and change DAW if these limitations are really an obstacle to making music.

My idea, and I've suggested it elsewhere, is to make the Reason Rack a VST/AU plugin, with audio I/O and a means of converting host automation data into CV (and CV as MIDI out). That way you could use Reason's plugins and all your third party Re's in your sequencer alongside your VST's, run audio through it, do whatever you want. It wouldn't in any way hurt Re development because it would still be a semi-closed system of sorts, and there would be advantages to writing plugins designed for the rack over VST/AU (specifically in terms of CV modulation, sequencing, the modular nature of it, etc.).

I think that would be a hugely successful move for PH. It'd bypass the need for ReWire entirely (who's gonna tell me they enjoy R8's sequencer over Cubase 8?). It'd generate heaps of new revenue. And it'd kick all the ass.

Exactly what fl studio does it runs lovely inside reaper for me as the 32 bit or 64bit plugging or both at the same time . Have had one crash so far and only cause I pushed my dsp to the top by having a project loaded into reaper and two instances of fl as a pluggin into thst project both with hefty demo tracks loaded with 32 bit and 64 bit versions being tested at once . Simply closed the one instance of the last vst I placed onto reaper on top of it all and I was able to continue with the testing no program crash just the pluggin.
Fls answer to being rewire slave . So reason would be once again catching up to what's tried and tested and known to work and is yet another solution.

[chimp_spanner]

Hey, I wish my PC would run Mac applications. I wish Logic was cross platform. I wish that my iPhone could access the Google Play store. I wish that my Xbox played Playstation games. But there are perfectly understandable, commercially sound reasons why those things won't happen. No-one is obliged to make those things possible and companies are free to look after their interests as they see fit, as we're free to vote with our wallets and change DAW if these limitations are really an obstacle to making music.

My idea, and I've suggested it elsewhere, is to make the Reason Rack a VST/AU plugin, with audio I/O and a means of converting host automation data into CV (and CV as MIDI out). That way you could use Reason's plugins and all your third party Re's in your sequencer alongside your VST's, run audio through it, do whatever you want. It wouldn't in any way hurt Re development because it would still be a semi-closed system of sorts, and there would be advantages to writing plugins designed for the rack over VST/AU (specifically in terms of CV modulation, sequencing, the modular nature of it, etc.).

I think that would be a hugely successful move for PH. It'd bypass the need for ReWire entirely (who's gonna tell me they enjoy R8's sequencer over Cubase 8?). It'd generate heaps of new revenue. And it'd kick all the ass.

Exactly what fl studio does it runs lovely inside reaper for me as the 32 bit or 64bit plugging or both at the same time . Have had one crash so far and only cause I pushed my dsp to the top by having a project loaded into reaper and two instances of fl as a pluggin into thst project both with hefty demo tracks loaded with 32 bit and 64 bit versions being tested at once . Simply closed the one instance of the last vst I placed onto reaper on top of it all and I was able to continue with the testing no program crash just the pluggin.
Fls answer to being rewire slave . So reason would be once again catching up to what's tried and tested and known to work and is yet another solution.

Yeah I seem to remember seeing that FL had that functionality. PH need to do this like, yesterday!

[submonsterz]

Hey, I wish my PC would run Mac applications. I wish Logic was cross platform. I wish that my iPhone could access the Google Play store. I wish that my Xbox played Playstation games. But there are perfectly understandable, commercially sound reasons why those things won't happen. No-one is obliged to make those things possible and companies are free to look after their interests as they see fit, as we're free to vote with our wallets and change DAW if these limitations are really an obstacle to making music.

My idea, and I've suggested it elsewhere, is to make the Reason Rack a VST/AU plugin, with audio I/O and a means of converting host automation data into CV (and CV as MIDI out). That way you could use Reason's plugins and all your third party Re's in your sequencer alongside your VST's, run audio through it, do whatever you want. It wouldn't in any way hurt Re development because it would still be a semi-closed system of sorts, and there would be advantages to writing plugins designed for the rack over VST/AU (specifically in terms of CV modulation, sequencing, the modular nature of it, etc.).

I think that would be a hugely successful move for PH. It'd bypass the need for ReWire entirely (who's gonna tell me they enjoy R8's sequencer over Cubase 8?). It'd generate heaps of new revenue. And it'd kick all the ass.

Exactly what fl studio does it runs lovely inside reaper for me as the 32 bit or 64bit plugging or both at the same time . Have had one crash so far and only cause I pushed my dsp to the top by having a project loaded into reaper and two instances of fl as a pluggin into thst project both with hefty demo tracks loaded with 32 bit and 64 bit versions being tested at once . Simply closed the one instance of the last vst I placed onto reaper on top of it all and I was able to continue with the testing no program crash just the pluggin.
Fls answer to being rewire slave . So reason would be once again catching up to what's tried and tested and known to work and is yet another solution.

Yeah I seem to remember seeing that FL had that functionality. PH need to do this like, yesterday!

A really great feature with fl using itself as a pluggin means it can be opened within itself.
Which gives the benefit of say you are 64bit version and have pluggs that will only run or cannot be bridged into the 64bit platform , you can open the 32 bit plugg of fl into fl and use any 32 bit pluggs like that good way to get old non bridgeable or or 64bit compatable pluggs to run in a native environment and still be fully integrated .

[Ostermilk]

"near real-time"

.....and there be those rose tinted spectacles I was talking about.

ReWire was the best design in 2001, considering the DAW landscape at that point, this is far from being the case now. The whole concept of streaming 64 tracks of audio has been outdated by the concept of "why bother?".

Entertain me though - give me a realistic scenario for why this is good for you, and we'll see if I can come up with an obvious better set-up.

Ta

If that's so why does Kontakt, Superior or any other multi-channel VST instrument bother to transmit simultaneaous multiple audio channels to it's host DAW? Alternatively ask yourself why anyone would invest in the best part of a grand for a little add-on like this if there were no application for moving 64 channels around, in this case outside of the box.

http://www.lynxstudio.com/product_detail.asp?i=55

I'll let you entertain yourself as to what to you a 'realistic scenario' for that would be though, I'd already taken heed of your username...

[normen]

This is digital audio.. "moving channels around" is a copy in memory or ideally just passing a pointer...

[Yonatan]

I agree with Normen about that what is most needed and wanted by Reason users are the ability to use Kontakt and other stand-alone software as easydrums etc. Why? Because today it is so limited in the Reason environment. we have seen some efforts to make IDT RE-instruments, but it is slow indeed and JP mentioned somewhere that he probably wont make another one. So, something is not working as supposed on that front. When it comes to eqs, compressors, reverbs, synths etc, RE-shop is a garden of blossom. But with instruments, many still prefer doing Refills because of some limitations with REs. And many ppl do try find other ways to use standalone anyway through some workaround. Better make it better with ReWire Master. It would open up for far more potential Reason users. And I believe we would still buy a quality RE-Instrument in the shop. But those invested or really need the NI stuff would have more options and arguments to using Reason instead of other DAWs. Now this limitation makes many go to other platforms who do allow standalone software as slaves to their DAWs. We would still use refills, RE-instruments and also some use NI etc. I dont see this as making Reason worse, it would make Reason more attractive. And some standalone software can be quite pricey and also need their upgrades, and REs would still attract our attention if they are good enough and at a competitive price. I hope PH is looking into this and only that they try finding a stable way of doing it.

[EpiGenetik]

This is digital audio.. "moving channels around" is a copy in memory or ideally just passing a pointer...

Indeed

[Ostermilk]

This is digital audio.. "moving channels around" is a copy in memory or ideally just passing a pointer...

Indeed

Indeed, such as is provided by Rewire in either direction and why Rewire doesn't suffer the same latency issues that looping back through hardware does despite your earlier claim that Rewire introduces unacceptable latency along with your completely irrational observation that a single midi channel router such as the EMI was somehow an enhanced version of Rewire..

Here's a measure of the latency involved with Rewire with the rose tinted specs removed and measured Rewiring, the same audio sample bounced directly out of Reason then bounced out of Studio One via Rewire and no latency compensation in the host and measuring the difference with AudioDiffMaker. The first parameter shows the figure needed to perfectly align the two!

parameters: -666.7usec, 0.008dB (L), 0.010dB (R)..Corr Depth: 62.3 dB (L), 61.3 dB (R).

Yup, less than a millisecond which hardly constitutes the unacceptable latency figure you were talking about earlier.

[EpiGenetik]

Indeed, such as is provided by Rewire in either direction and why Rewire doesn't suffer the same latency issues that looping back through hardware does despite your earlier claim that Rewire introduces unacceptable latency along with your completely irrational observation that a single midi channel router such as the EMI was somehow an enhanced version of Rewire..

Here's a measure of the latency involved with Rewire with the rose tinted specs removed and measured Rewiring, the same audio sample bounced directly out of Reason then bounced out of Studio One via Rewire and no latency compensation in the host and measuring the difference with AudioDiffMaker. The first parameter shows the figure needed to perfectly align the two!

parameters: -666.7usec, 0.008dB (L), 0.010dB (R)..Corr Depth: 62.3 dB (L), 61.3 dB (R).

Yup, less than a millisecond which hardly constitutes the unacceptable latency figure you were talking about earlier.

I can only assume that either your figures are incorrect, or that modern technology has allowed the gap to close since I last tried Rewire, which admittedly was years ago. How does the test you're doing stand up to 64 tracks?