Tuning drift in Reason

[keeverw]

So I had reinstalled OSX on my MacBookPro a few weeks ago from scratch (i.e. formatted the hard disk and did a clean install), and then after that I installed the latest Reason, and then started downloading my RE's and Refills, etc.

I opened a blank project and loaded up one of my saved combinators which contains a Radical Piano, a Malstrom and a Thor.
The Malstrom and Thor are being used for soft pad sounds as a foundation for the nice grand piano patch.

And I noticed, that the piano sound seemed out of tune with the pads.
And I tried playing it with other controllers thinking maybe my pitch bend wheel wasn't resetting back to zero or something like that, but it made no difference. I reloaded the patch in radpi and that didn't help. I loaded up another instrument, and it was in tune with the pads in my combinator, so it seemed radpi was the problem.

I had to replace radpi with an NNXT and some FX to get by because I had a gig that weekend.
And that did get me by. I thought maybe Radpi was corrupted, so I deleted and downloaded again. Seemed to be ok, at first. But then the drift happened again.

Yesterday I noticed the same problem in a completely different combinator with a B3 sound from an NNXT.
It would drift in and out of tune, and it ruined the layered sound I was going for. So I had to just leave it out.


What could be causing this?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I'm reporting this as a bug in Reason because I have used MainStage and not experienced this problem at all, even since the clean install of OSX.
So I don't think it's a computer issue.




edit:
Just remembered a detail that might be important. When playing the piano sound, it would start out in tune when I initially struck the key, but then as the sample decayed, it wobbled in and out of tune. As did the NNXT which was a longer sustained sound and it drifted in and out of tune.

[normen]

What audio interface do you use and is there any digital connections or wordclock connections to it?

[keeverw]

What audio interface do you use and is there any digital connections or wordclock connections to it?

I'm currently using a MOTU 896Mk3 via firewire.
The only connections I'm using are analog.

I have another interface, do you think it would be worth trying it to see if that is the problem?

[pushedbutton]

Hi,
If you were on Windows I'd recommend using MIDIOX to identify any unwanted midi messages but you're not so, meh.

[normen]

I'm currently using a MOTU 896Mk3 via firewire.
The only connections I'm using are analog.

I have another interface, do you think it would be worth trying it to see if that is the problem?

Well its worth a shot at least. Sounds like a very strange issue. Also make sure that you don't have your MIDI interface registered twice in Reasons settings.

Hi,
If you were on Windows I'd recommend using MIDIOX to identify any unwanted midi messages but you're not so, meh.

On OSX theres "MIDI Monitor" for that purpose.

[keeverw]

On OSX theres "MIDI Monitor" for that purpose.

But how would a stray midi signal affect two instrument in the same combinator differently?
If it were a random pitch bend, it should bend everything in the combinator the same amount.
That's not what happened.

[normen]

But how would a stray midi signal affect two instrument in the same combinator differently?
If it were a random pitch bend, it should bend everything in the combinator the same amount.
That's not what happened.

Maybe via control messages, instruments react to various CCs for various parameters.

[Dante]

Radpi has a fine tuning knob, I use it to tune the thing to the rest of the arrangement, did you check/fiddle with that ?

[keeverw]

Radpi has a fine tuning knob, I use it to tune the thing to the rest of the arrangement, did you check/fiddle with that ?

If that were it, it would've reset when I re-loaded the preset.

[keeverw]

But how would a stray midi signal affect two instrument in the same combinator differently?
If it were a random pitch bend, it should bend everything in the combinator the same amount.
That's not what happened.

Maybe via control messages, instruments react to various CCs for various parameters.

But where would that random midi signal come from?
I tried two different controllers.

I've been using Reason for live use for a long time, and I've never had this problem before.
It's only since I reinstalled Yosemite clean that I've been experiencing this.

[normen]

But where would that random midi signal come from?
I tried two different controllers.

I've been using Reason for live use for a long time, and I've never had this problem before.
It's only since I reinstalled Yosemite clean that I've been experiencing this.

You try to solve a problem that shouldn't be there in the first place - lamenting why certain causes for that issue would be there won't help much, its better to find out if these causes are actually there. Its like saying "why would that cable be broken, I just bought it" - that doesn't help if its actually broken.

[keeverw]

But where would that random midi signal come from?
I tried two different controllers.

I've been using Reason for live use for a long time, and I've never had this problem before.
It's only since I reinstalled Yosemite clean that I've been experiencing this.

You try to solve a problem that shouldn't be there in the first place - lamenting why certain causes for that issue would be there won't help much, its better to find out if these causes are actually there. Its like saying "why would that cable be broken, I just bought it" - that doesn't help if its actually broken.

But effective troubleshooting means eliminating as many possible causes as you can in order to find the actual cause of the problem.

It's a little less obvious than your analogy.
It would be more like that cable just sprang into existence, but why did it do that?

Midi message have to have a source, correct?
If all midi controllers are disconnected from my laptop, then where would an erroneous midi message come from?

And although it's not impossible, I think it's highly improbable that both of my midi controllers are malfuntioning all of a sudden.

The most obvious thing is what has changed recently?
I did a clean install on the OS recently.

And I haven't been using this interface very long either.

Do word clock settings matter if no cable is connected to the word clock in/out ports?
I think my interface is set for internal clock, but is that correct?

[normen]

Ok, so don't check for stray midi messages and keep on guessing..

Internal sync is correct, yes.

[Olivier]

You did allready test that all this happens even with your control surfaces disconnected right ?
Are your controllers connected via midi through a midi interface, or via midi over usb ?

[edit]
Moved thread from "ReasonTalk Bugs and Suggestions" (its for bugs concerning the forum) to "Propellerhead General".

[keeverw]

Ok, so don't check for stray midi messages and keep on guessing..

Internal sync is correct, yes.

Please don't get upset when trying to help someone if they simply disagree with your suggestion.
It's not personal.
I appreciate your help.

And I may come back to this, but for now it seems pretty unlikely to me.
Unlikely enough that I don't want to waste time pursuing it.
Not yet anyway. I mean random stray midi signals affecting two completely different modules in the same way?

I bought a new larger SSD a week ago, and I have some free time at work today. I think instead of trying to clone my current SSD to the new one I'm just going to do a clean install again, and maybe my problem will just go away. If not, I'll pick this back up again.


Another bit of the story. This Motu 896Mk3 belongs to my church, and I am borrowing it.
It used to be part of our set up and now it's retired. When it was part of our set up (we are a mobile church) it lived in box inside a very hot trailer during the week, and then was setup and used only on Sundays.
At some point it started randomly rebooting itself. I only did it a couple of times, but not long after that it was retired. Maybe the D/A converters sustained a little damage from the heat. And maybe they drift sometimes. Still, if that was it, you'd think everything would drift together, not just certain parts.

[normen]

Please don't get upset when trying to help someone if they simply disagree with your suggestion.

I am not upset. You have a problem - my system runs fine. Just wondering why you spend as much time discussing as it would take to check for random MIDI messages. Especially MOTUs OSX MIDI drivers are known for having such issues - without any device connected. I removed all MOTU MIDI drivers from our computers at the theater when they would randomly start to play takes in the middle of a play.

If different devices react with different pitch changes at the same time its unlikely to be an AD/DA sync issue.

[keeverw]

Please don't get upset when trying to help someone if they simply disagree with your suggestion.

I am not upset. You have a problem - my system runs fine. Just wondering why you spend as much time discussing as it would take to check for random MIDI messages. Especially MOTUs OSX MIDI drivers are known for having such issues - without any device connected. I removed all MOTU MIDI drivers from our computers at the theater when they would randomly start to play takes in the middle of a play.

If different devices react with different pitch changes at the same time its unlikely to be an AD/DA sync issue.

Fair enough.

Why do I spend more time commenting and researching than actual trouble shooting?
Well my job has a lot of down time, so I have lots of time to think about it at work, and ask questions on forums.
But my home life is much busier, with 2 small kiddos and lots of commitments.
So I have a lot less time to futz with my macbook at home.
I did actually take my macbookpro to work with me today, so I could replace the SSD.

Someone (I bought the MBP used) had removed the original hard drive, and the DVD drive.
Then they installed an adapter to put a 2TB hard drive in place of the DVD drive, and a 250GB SSD in place of the original HDD.

I have spend the last couple of hours removing both drives, and the adapter, and installing my new 500GB SSD.

I don't need 2TB of storage, and it's bound to use resources that could be better used for other things. And one day I might want to buy a DVD and put it back in.

So I am doing a clean install of Yosemite right now.

I had to do this anyway, so I wanted to get it out of the way before I started too much troubleshooting. Who knows the problem may take care of it'self.

And to be honest, I am really trying to get away from Reason for live use anyway. I think Mainstage suits me better. I just need to recreate a lot of my sounds in MS before I can completely put Reason aside. I've been using Reason a long time, so this is no impulsive decision. And I'm sure I'll still use it for other stuff.

[Marketblandings]

Just wanted to mention that I have experienced some serious tuning drift in my reason Essentials. A lot of trial and error seemed to point out my Behringer ASIO USB Audio interface. A delete of the driver and a re-install fixed it.
This is in Windows 8.1
Just sayin'... in case it helps.

[keeverw]

Just wanted to mention that I have experienced some serious tuning drift in my reason Essentials. A lot of trial and error seemed to point out my Behringer ASIO USB Audio interface. A delete of the driver and a re-install fixed it.
This is in Windows 8.1
Just sayin'... in case it helps.

Thanks!

I clean installed the OS and wiped the hard drive in the process, so I have redownloaded all software and all drivers now.

And I am digging into Mainstage a little more and I haven't gotten around to Reason yet. But hopefully that will fix it.
I think my interface is flaky too. So I am gonna try and get a new one. Well I have a MOTU Microbook and its working flawlessly, but it only has 2 outputs, and I need 4.

[pauljones699]

Hey man, i am experiencing exactly the same problem. I have used a M AUDIO AXIOM controller with Reason 4 for about 4 years no problem. All of sudden - my piano patches are drifting? Whats strange is some of the instruments, combos etc...are always fine, but my Abbey Road Pianos are going out of tune. Same as you, i haven't changed any tuning settings or anything. I play live and this is just reining my trust in the show! Strange how its always the pianos and not the other instruments? I've tried using Abbey Road Pianos, and Reason Pianos and they both go out of tune. PLEASE tell me you figured out what it was? I haven't swapped my interface yet, but i can't see why it would be that i've had it for 4 years and its been fine?

I'm using a Macbook (snow leopard), reason 4, Alesis interface.

PLEASE HELP if anyone solved this!!

[Aquila]

Hey man, i am experiencing exactly the same problem. I have used a M AUDIO AXIOM controller with Reason 4 for about 4 years no problem. All of sudden - my piano patches are drifting? Whats strange is some of the instruments, combos etc...are always fine, but my Abbey Road Pianos are going out of tune. Same as you, i haven't changed any tuning settings or anything. I play live and this is just reining my trust in the show! Strange how its always the pianos and not the other instruments? I've tried using Abbey Road Pianos, and Reason Pianos and they both go out of tune. PLEASE tell me you figured out what it was? I haven't swapped my interface yet, but i can't see why it would be that i've had it for 4 years and its been fine?

I'm using a Macbook (snow leopard), reason 4, Alesis interface.

PLEASE HELP if anyone solved this!!

Your issue may be unrelated given that Axiom contollers are notorious for having pitch bend problems. You can check if yours is affected by watching the pitch bend value that appears on its blue screen - it should centre on 64 in the middle but if it's another value then you have a faulty controller. I dumped my Axiom 25 controller for this same reason.