Do you think we over-reacted?

[Jagwah]

...i'll chime in for a bit since I use a multi screen and a single screen set up. The most "annoying" thing I find with the single screen set up is that the browser usually takes to much space and is always in your "face".

I can't believe that once I upgrade I will be forever looking at this stupid bar taking up valuable screen real estate!

[gak]

Well, from a "new" persons perspective, I really like 8.1. I like the browser, and I do think that there are many aspects that are kinda strange, but for me, it fits the bill. (long-time wait)

[EnochLight]

I'm left handed too. So your point being? Reason is for right handed persons?Personally, I do lot of sound design. And for me sound design is "better" in Reason 7 then in Reason 8. Meaning, I don't get the "sequencer gets focus" fuzz when I am tweaking thing here and there. In  R8, I often feel like "R8 isn't a sound designer tool, its a sequencer tool".Being left handed has nothing to with that IMHO.

 
Huh??  My point being - when you use DUAL monitors and have things setup like I do, it's not an issue for me.  I just said that I never realized how awkward it must be for you guys on single monitors.  

I'm left-handed and since the browser always opens on my left monitor, on the left side, it works for ME. 

YMMV. 

 

[EnochLight]

It's been so long since I've worked on a single-monitor setup, I never realized how much of a hassle you guys have with multi screens. On multiple monitors it rocks, but I'm left handed and my browser window opens on my left monitor all of the time. My mixer occupies the right monitor, so no issues. Hopefully Props will make the browser window detachable someday. :frown:

Eh?  I'm not sure anyone has hassles with multi-screens it's just that the Browser stays on a different screen to the Mixer or worse the Rack if you decide to put them on another scree.  It's even worse with detached windows on the same screen as short of the devices file selector turning orange when you want to load a patch nothing else visibly happens.

I'm left-handed too and it hasn't made things easier, the only thing that makes it easier for me is to keep the whole thing single screen and use the F5. 6 and 7 keys to switch between full views.

See my response to hydlide for clarification.

[Gaja]

I'm left handed too. So your point being? Reason is for right handed persons?Personally, I do lot of sound design. And for me sound design is "better" in Reason 7 then in Reason 8. Meaning, I don't get the "sequencer gets focus" fuzz when I am tweaking thing here and there. In  R8, I often feel like "R8 isn't a sound designer tool, its a sequencer tool".Being left handed has nothing to with that IMHO.

 
Huh??  My point being - when you use DUAL monitors and have things setup like I do, it's not an issue

for me.

 I just said that I never realized how awkward it must be for you guys on single monitors.  

I'm left-handed and since the browser always opens on my left monitor, on the left side, it works for ME. 

YMMV. 

 

I thibk your metod only works if you're comfortable with rack and sequencer in one window. For me personally it is not working out nicely, when they're not seperated, so I understand the frustration. Since I'm working with video a lot my second monitor is above my first one, so for me the trick was to move the rack onto the other monitor permanently. It does work, but it works against a couple of years of being used to using it differently.
For me personally it's not so much of a big deal, but I certainly think taht having the browser permanently and inseperably attached to the sequencer is certainly a break with the Rack metaphor. Yes now you can leave the rack out of sight entirely, if you wish, but you can't leave out the sequencer entirely (like you could before) because now you have to have rack and sequencer either in one window, or on seperate monitors (which doesn't make it more efficient, because you have to move your mouse more than before). Anyway, I figure that's what the two monitor problems people are complaining about.

[jfrichards]

...i'll chime in for a bit since I use a multi screen and a single screen set up. The most "annoying" thing I find with the single screen set up is that the browser usually takes to much space and is always in your "face".

I can't believe that once I upgrade I will be forever looking at this stupid bar taking up valuable screen real estate!

Amazing coincidence Jag that you and Ed both lost your F3 buttons!  Must be a giant pile of them somewhere like single socks and guitar picks.

[Gaja]

...i'll chime in for a bit since I use a multi screen and a single screen set up. The most "annoying" thing I find with the single screen set up is that the browser usually takes to much space and is always in your "face".

I can't believe that once I upgrade I will be forever looking at this stupid bar taking up valuable screen real estate!

Amazing coincidence Jag that you and Ed both lost your F3 buttons!  Must be a giant pile of them somewhere like single socks and guitar picks.

It's not a pile, it's a planet. Made up of picks, lighters, ballpens, socks etc.
Jokes aside, even when minimizing the browser it takes up about a centimeter of screen. If you're working on somehting like 13" displays (which I have done in the past and recommend not to) it takes up a considerate amount of screen.

[Jamesville]

A GUI re-arrange and a drag and drop addition being touted as 'workflow improvement' enough to justify the upgrade price.

Most other daw's naturally evolved this way from inception, improvements like this were just part of a otherwise minor/major upgrade, not just 'the only' change sold on. Which is the way it looks to reason users. Eg. when cubase went to 'SX' the look changed but under the hood a lot had been fixed & updated & listed.

I don't think anyone who didnt upgrade is being over-reactive. The amount of discussion it churned up speaks volumes. And so will the upgrade figures if they ever admit to the amount of users still on 7. 

[Gaja]

A GUI re-arrange and a drag and drop addition being touted as 'workflow improvement' enough to justify the upgrade price.

Most other daw's naturally evolved this way from inception, improvements like this were just part of a otherwise minor/major upgrade, not just 'the only' change sold on. Which is the way it looks to reason users. Eg. when cubase went to 'SX' the look changed but under the hood a lot had been fixed & updated & listed.

I don't think anyone who didnt upgrade is being over-reactive. The amount of discussion it churned up speaks volumes. And so will the upgrade figures if they ever admit to the amount of users still on 7. 

I tink the discussion was quite representative of previous upgrades. It were the same users moaning (except jagwah and phasys, who weren't so moany at previous releases), and they were also essentially moaning thensame things. Too expensive, too "half arsed" whatever that means (heard that at the 6 release, te 6.5 release, the 7 relase, even when 7.1 brought one of the best features since forever (shift + drag to reroute) people were still moaning about something like it's a kick in the nuts to all users of previous versions that they can't upgrade to 7.1 for free, and now at the latest release. The only difference was that, while previously they moaned about the browser being too slow, they now complained that it is not what they expected, because they expected the browser to be faster, but in and of itself exactly the same. Oh right. And this outrageous move to ditch those weird little line 6 amp simulation simulations and replace them with something that works better out of the box. Oh and of course it weren't only like .5% of the userbase, but .58% complaining this time.
So yes we have overreacted (as have I right now, I feel desperate anger inside me, which should be a clear sign of overreaction), and I wouldn't want to use 7, or any other previous version now. For me it was a great deal. 129€ is about three hours of work, maybe a little less. I understand for a hobbyist it might be a bit much, but it has nothg to do with the inherent value of the upgrade, but wit the projected value the user finds or gives the product. Some even argue that it's not worth a full version number, but I disagree from the design change perspective. If 7.5 would have gotten this overhaul, then people were equally upset about having to upgrade to this totally shitty and unexpected new design, even if it were free, many wouldn't take the leap and still complain about their stuff online.
EDIT: yeah I know... Sorry... Total double standard rant... And probably illogical or so.

[trimph1]

...i'll chime in for a bit since I use a multi screen and a single screen set up. The most "annoying" thing I find with the single screen set up is that the browser usually takes to much space and is always in your "face".

I can't believe that once I upgrade I will be forever looking at this stupid bar taking up valuable screen real estate!

Amazing coincidence Jag that you and Ed both lost your F3 buttons!  Must be a giant pile of them somewhere like single socks and guitar picks.

My little fluff bundle...the loving little thief known as Spring stole my A & S keys on my older laptop...I'm waiting for it to happen here...

[doinky]

I don't think so.

a) A poll was done soon after in the props forum, it had a good sample of the population that showed %50 didn't like it.

b) Multi window users like myself, I bought reason 8 by the way, experienced workflow issues trying to work in the main instrument window. Indeed the browser stuck to the sequencer was indeed the biggest headache ever. I myself am still using Reason 7

c) Most public reviews definitely were meh sounding. And to try and cover that up with "but they didn't say this" is a wash up really.

d) The instrument focus to me and others was quite foreign and didn't work for us

e) The price for a faster browser was overkill.

f) The new transport bar is horrible also to about 50% of us. Remember a lot of us are still using Reason 7

g) You gotta admit having a stationary browser sitting on the screen is overkill when it used to pop up and disappear after we selected. A good lot of us loved that feature all through reason version up till 8

h) Reason was quite over hauled to be almost foreign to many of us and we had to wonder why.

i) A lot of us complainers stopped complaining out of courtesy for others.

j) Denial is high on the list of props

k) Reason 8 users made comments like why should we care what you guys want. Stick to reason 7 suck it up. Which might be fine except a faster browser, which 8 has, was one of the bigger requests we all wanted.

l) The same people who say "the same people" keep covering up these facts with the same innuendos over and over.

m) Complaining is a good form or was a good form in the past for getting change from the props, but this time the complaints were so overwhelming, due to the feature forum being shut down, that I wonder if props shut down the forum altogether in denial.



So in conclusion, there is more then enough reason for the complaints and more then enough examples in the past, we just stopped complaining as a majority and so now you all think that the few who are left complaining are fair game for beating up. Except you deniers all look pretty bad to the silent ones of us here who do want change. (not directed at the poster)

[EnochLight]

Except you deniers all look pretty bad to the silent ones of us here who do want change. (not directed at the poster)

Probably look no worse than the complainers on any regular day of the week.  It's all about perspective.  

I'm actually looking forward to changes and improvements in Reason.  I agree that the browser window should be made optionally detachable, that would likely solve a lot of issues people have.  

[doinky]

Except you deniers all look pretty bad to the silent ones of us here who do want change. (not directed at the poster)

Probably look no worse than the

complainers

on any regular day of the week.

Quite possibly

[Gaja]

Well I don't think it's an issue of denial, really. It's a question of flexibility. Some adapt to changes easier than others, that's totally normal fluctuation imo. I personally welcome change, when I get the opportunity to do so and I too have many ideas on how to improve Reason, like a detatchable browser and editing functionality both for audio and midi. But at the same time we don't know what props plans are. Who knows what they have in the pipeline for us, both in terms of RE and core Reason. The Browser had to be tackled (and as some say should have been done long ago), and the same goes for drag and drop. I'm no programmer, so I wouldn't know what work had to be done in order to implement those popular feature requests.
I think props plans didn't involve moderation of a Forum, which, if done properly would have been a major task and would require the workforce to do that (especially because you also need to be tech savvy). So they made a decision in order to stay flexible. That was shutting down the forums. So now Mattias has more time to answer tweets and facebook stuff and thenrest of the people can go back to programming. Imagine working for propellerheads and everytime someone goes on the forum they come back with these weird insults that were thrown at them on a daily basis at te puf. I think that the forums have been talked about during lunchbreaks and meetings and got quite a bit of attention outside of our radar. I believe had they kept the forum and invested into moderation then that would make the same impression of denial as their closure, because all the batch and bickering that had entertained so many would have stopped, leaving users with the impression that the forum had become boring. I remember some people wondering why rascricket was banned. I remember one single post by him that was not agressive towards someone. Some said stuff like "props can't take any criticism, because they ban people who stand up for us all" or someting of the sorts, when somebody was downright insulting and therefore righteously banned. I think had they decided to moderate the forums at an earlier stage, it might have been sustainable, but the level of chaos that had taken over the puf was too advanced for anyone to control.

[EddieG]

IMHO
Yes

You dont pay full price for a Mercedes, ( or iPhone etc )
and next year get the brand new one with its' minor upgrades and enhancements for free IMHO

FWIW - I too have been using the contact PHeads links and got a lot of my enhancements implemented
REASON ROCKS
 

[selig]

…I think props plans didn't involve moderation of a Forum, which, if done properly would have been a major task and would require the workforce to do that (especially because you also need to be tech savvy)…

Knowing what I know now moderating a forum, I have a different view (actually, I had the same view before, but now I am more certain of it!). It takes no tech knowledge to moderate a forum, isn't a "major" task (though I'll admit you guys here have been on good behavior, making our job easier - thanks for that!), and the "workforce" required isn't all that demanding.

If asked I would have been more than happy to help moderate the old PUF (but I wasn't asked). I made no secret of the fact I felt the old PUF was under-moderated, and always thought it wouldn't take THAT much work to make it a better place - ReasonTalk is now proof of that IMO. 

Hopefully others agree we are doing it "properly" here, but I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with everything done here (or on any forum). 

[CharlyCharlzz]

I just noticed a request that I had for 8 is actualy in 7.1 and that happen all the  time with reason for some reasons ! it was not mentioned anywhere that they fixed it !
it was the getting out of a midi bar once doubled clicked in the container , now there is a close window

[KEVMOVE02]

…I think props plans didn't involve moderation of a Forum, which, if done properly would have been a major task and would require the workforce to do that (especially because you also need to be tech savvy)…

Knowing what I know now moderating a forum, I have a different view (actually, I had the same view before, but now I am more certain of it!). It takes no tech knowledge to moderate a forum, isn't a "major" task (though I'll admit you guys here have been on good behavior, making our job easier - thanks for that!), and the "workforce" required isn't all that demanding.

If asked I would have been more than happy to help moderate the old PUF (but I wasn't asked). I made no secret of the fact I felt the old PUF was under-moderated, and always thought it wouldn't take THAT much work to make it a better place - ReasonTalk is now proof of that IMO. 

Hopefully others agree we are doing it "properly" here, but I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with everything done here (or on any forum). 

Selig, objectively speaking, can you point us to a "corporately moderated" user forum that is well moderated and well maintained? I ask because I am not certain that you can get both directly from a mid to large size company; more often than not, companies outsource this service to organizations that staff "product evangelists". Wavemachine Auria is a good example of a semi-responsive, corporately moderated user forum.

[Grinder One]

I just noticed a request that I had for 8 is actualy in 7.1 and that happen all the  time with reason for some reasons ! it was not mentioned anywhere that they fixed it !
it was the getting out of a midi bar once doubled clicked in the container , now there is a close window

I've always just pressed ESC for this.

Mart.

[TheFatControlleR]

Do you think we over-reacted?

We?

[joeyluck]

…I think props plans didn't involve moderation of a Forum, which, if done properly would have been a major task and would require the workforce to do that (especially because you also need to be tech savvy)…

Knowing what I know now moderating a forum, I have a different view (actually, I had the same view before, but now I am more certain of it!). It takes no tech knowledge to moderate a forum, isn't a "major" task (though I'll admit you guys here have been on good behavior, making our job easier - thanks for that!), and the "workforce" required isn't all that demanding.

If asked I would have been more than happy to help moderate the old PUF (but I wasn't asked). I made no secret of the fact I felt the old PUF was under-moderated, and always thought it wouldn't take THAT much work to make it a better place - ReasonTalk is now proof of that IMO. 

Hopefully others agree we are doing it "properly" here, but I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with everything done here (or on any forum). 

I think the PUF had issues because Propellerhead might have felt less inclined to moderate and become too involved. They likely didn't want to be perceived as exercising censorship. They didn't want to seem biased to opinion. And to be honest, they left many threads open that I wouldn't have. And something had to change.

It's great to have you as a moderator here. Having you as a moderator in the PUF however, they might have had to worry about it seeming like they would be exercising favoritism. And while you moderate with excellence here, I could see how some folks might be hesitant to have a RE developer moderate out of potential bias.

In the end, I find it is better to have a forum for the users run by the users. Y'all do an excellent job.
For the reasons stated above - there were too many users at the ready to accuse Propellerhead of some kind of conspiracy. I think they did what was best.

Maybe if we can continue to show our maturity here, and our ability to run a clean forum; we will someday get a link/tab on their site
They don't need to run it, they don't need to host it... There are plenty sites whose forums take the user to a different site.

[TheFatControlleR]

If asked I would have been more than happy to help moderate the old PUF (but I wasn't asked). I made no secret of the fact I felt the old PUF was under-moderated, and always thought it wouldn't take THAT much work to make it a better place...

Forum moderation and administration is my bread & butter (media/publishing clients in the main) and I did offer my services, gratis, on PUF several years ago, but to no avail. It just needed a little bit of gentle policing, as with most forums, for it to have been a much more pleasant place to hang out.

And, as you say Giles, here is the proof of that thinking.

[trimph1]

…I think props plans didn't involve moderation of a Forum, which, if done properly would have been a major task and would require the workforce to do that (especially because you also need to be tech savvy)…

Knowing what I know now moderating a forum, I have a different view (actually, I had the same view before, but now I am more certain of it!). It takes no tech knowledge to moderate a forum, isn't a "major" task (though I'll admit you guys here have been on good behavior, making our job easier - thanks for that!), and the "workforce" required isn't all that demanding.

If asked I would have been more than happy to help moderate the old PUF (but I wasn't asked). I made no secret of the fact I felt the old PUF was under-moderated, and always thought it wouldn't take THAT much work to make it a better place - ReasonTalk is now proof of that IMO. 

Hopefully others agree we are doing it "properly" here, but I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with everything done here (or on any forum). 

Selig, objectively speaking, can you point us to a "corporately moderated" user forum that is well moderated and well maintained? I ask because I am not certain that you can get both directly from a mid to large size company; more often than not, companies outsource this service to organizations that staff "product evangelists". Wavemachine Auria is a good example of a semi-responsive, corporately moderated user forum.

I moderate in another forum associated with Kalmbach Publishing...check out the Model Railroading Forums...

[selig]

…I think props plans didn't involve moderation of a Forum, which, if done properly would have been a major task and would require the workforce to do that (especially because you also need to be tech savvy)…

Knowing what I know now moderating a forum, I have a different view (actually, I had the same view before, but now I am more certain of it!). It takes no tech knowledge to moderate a forum, isn't a "major" task (though I'll admit you guys here have been on good behavior, making our job easier - thanks for that!), and the "workforce" required isn't all that demanding.

If asked I would have been more than happy to help moderate the old PUF (but I wasn't asked). I made no secret of the fact I felt the old PUF was under-moderated, and always thought it wouldn't take THAT much work to make it a better place - ReasonTalk is now proof of that IMO. 

Hopefully others agree we are doing it "properly" here, but I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with everything done here (or on any forum). 

Selig, objectively speaking, can you point us to a "corporately moderated" user forum that is well moderated and well maintained? I ask because I am not certain that you can get both directly from a mid to large size company; more often than not, companies outsource this service to organizations that staff "product evangelists". Wavemachine Auria is a good example of a semi-responsive, corporately moderated user forum.

I don't know much about any other forums, sorry. My only early experience was with a mail list (DAW/Mac) that had serious issues at one point, and then managed to totally resolve them and be 99.9% trouble free for over 10 years now!

[selig]

…I think props plans didn't involve moderation of a Forum, which, if done properly would have been a major task and would require the workforce to do that (especially because you also need to be tech savvy)…

Knowing what I know now moderating a forum, I have a different view (actually, I had the same view before, but now I am more certain of it!). It takes no tech knowledge to moderate a forum, isn't a "major" task (though I'll admit you guys here have been on good behavior, making our job easier - thanks for that!), and the "workforce" required isn't all that demanding.

If asked I would have been more than happy to help moderate the old PUF (but I wasn't asked). I made no secret of the fact I felt the old PUF was under-moderated, and always thought it wouldn't take THAT much work to make it a better place - ReasonTalk is now proof of that IMO. 

Hopefully others agree we are doing it "properly" here, but I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with everything done here (or on any forum). 

I think the PUF had issues because Propellerhead might have felt less inclined to moderate and become too involved. They likely didn't want to be perceived as exercising censorship. They didn't want to seem biased to opinion. And to be honest, they left many threads open that I wouldn't have. And something had to change.

It's great to have you as a moderator here. Having you as a moderator in the PUF however, they might have had to worry about it seeming like they would be exercising favoritism. And while you moderate with excellence here, I could see how some folks might be hesitant to have a RE developer moderate out of potential bias.

In the end, I find it is better to have a forum for the users run by the users. Y'all do an excellent job.
For the reasons stated above - there were too many users at the ready to accuse Propellerhead of some kind of conspiracy. I think they did what was best.

Maybe if we can continue to show our maturity here, and our ability to run a clean forum; we will someday get a link/tab on their site
They don't need to run it, they don't need to host it... There are plenty sites whose forums take the user to a different site.

I would wonder if having an RE developer as ONE of the moderators would possibly have been any worse than having one of the Props (also an RE developer BTW) as the ONLY moderator! Though to be honest, when I mentioned that I was thinking of the time before I became an RE developer…  

Funny that the Props still received MUCH negative feedback about their "secret" banning and other extreme claims of censorship, despite trying to be 99% hands off. I just don't believe it's worth it to have a Wild West type environment in the name of not looking like you're "controlling" it in any way. Better to make your rules and amend them if needed according to public feedback IMO. Time will tell if that approach works or not - stay tuned!