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nooomy
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Post 22 Sep 2017

I feel like the forum is going down hill when it comes to quality.
Threads about how bad reason is and starts the thread with a YouTube video of a stupid person ranting for 20 min followed by 6 pages of off topic posts.

People sell their license in general

Vst posts in general etcso etc...

There is no order at all and people can shit post 24/7 without a warning or a removal of a post...

If you admins don't step it up soon this forum will die.

And yes I know all admins are voluntary still I don't think they are doing what they are suppose to do

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selig
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Post 22 Sep 2017

nooomy wrote:
22 Sep 2017
I feel like the forum is going down hill when it comes to quality.
Threads about how bad reason is and starts the thread with a YouTube video of a stupid person ranting for 20 min followed by 6 pages of off topic posts.

People sell their license in general

Vst posts in general etcso etc...

There is no order at all and people can shit post 24/7 without a warning or a removal of a post...

If you admins don't step it up soon this forum will die.

And yes I know all admins are voluntary still I don't think they are doing what they are suppose to do
Just to be clear, you are asking us to censor the forums so there are only positive Reason discussions?
I'm not sure I want to live in that world - I'd have to warn myself and remove many of my own posts.

In the spirit if tying to be a good listener, where do you suggest we draw the line?
What exactly are we 'supposed' to do? Sincere questions, I'm all ears (I'm but one of the mods BTW, and not the admin).

This is the same critism I had about the old PUF, btw, so I'm rellly interested in not letting that happen here.
Selig Audio, LLC

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esselfortium
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Post 22 Sep 2017

I would argue that it's possible to allow criticism without allowing antagonism. Personal attacks, conspiracy theories, and begging for flames with snide "here come the toddler fanboys" remarks appended to otherwise legitimate complaints just turn discussions utterly toxic. We should all be mature enough to handle disagreements about what our music software should do without acting like bullies about it. This place's general atmosphere has become distressingly reminiscent of the old PUF.
Sarah Mancuso
New album「Transmission Control: Music from Subserial Network」is out now!

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CaliforniaBurrito
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Location: San Diego, CA

Post 23 Sep 2017

I see this as infotainment and people talking smack have no bearing or impact what I'm doing. I'm too far down the rabbit hole and admittedly full of myself to get bent out of shape. :lol: Ok I'm a toddler fanboy. :roll: What's next? :)

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avasopht
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Post 23 Sep 2017

selig wrote:
22 Sep 2017
In the spirit if tying to be a good listener, where do you suggest we draw the line?
What exactly are we 'supposed' to do? Sincere questions, I'm all ears (I'm but one of the mods BTW, and not the admin).

This is the same critism I had about the old PUF, btw, so I'm rellly interested in not letting that happen here.
What the OP described as pretty much shitposting is a problem and it is happening.

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules, but in general if someone seems persistently toxic or antagonizing, a kind warning followed by a ban will suffice. Everything esselfortium has mentioned. They have to go, especially the whole, "you're just a fanboy."

It would be incorrect for me to say that those people have nothing to offer, because one hyper aggressive forum member (who I won't name) has lots of skill. He just seems to interpret everything as a personal attack on him or an attack on VST DAWs for some strange reason, even when the other person goes out of their way to explain it.

Other points of view should be welcomed, but toxic behaviour should be brought to light, and if it continues then ban, otherwise you just end up with a low quality forum.
---

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selig
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Post 23 Sep 2017

avasopht wrote:
23 Sep 2017
selig wrote:
22 Sep 2017
In the spirit if tying to be a good listener, where do you suggest we draw the line?
What exactly are we 'supposed' to do? Sincere questions, I'm all ears (I'm but one of the mods BTW, and not the admin).

This is the same critism I had about the old PUF, btw, so I'm rellly interested in not letting that happen here.
What the OP described as pretty much shitposting is a problem and it is happening.

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules, but in general if someone seems persistently toxic or antagonizing, a kind warning followed by a ban will suffice. Everything esselfortium has mentioned. They have to go, especially the whole, "you're just a fanboy."

It would be incorrect for me to say that those people have nothing to offer, because one hyper aggressive forum member (who I won't name) has lots of skill. He just seems to interpret everything as a personal attack on him or an attack on VST DAWs for some strange reason, even when the other person goes out of their way to explain it.

Other points of view should be welcomed, but toxic behaviour should be brought to light, and if it continues then ban, otherwise you just end up with a low quality forum.
OK, but let's turn this one around for just a second if you will indulge me.

If someone 'shitposts' and no one replies, it quickly goes off the radar and is not an issue.

IMO the bigger problem and the one I'm always commenting about is WHY are all these flies attracted to the shitposts? I'm talking about so many regular forum members contributing to the thread, keeping it alive, visible, making it into something MUCH bigger than it would otherwise become on it's own.

We can't stop folks from shitposting, but I'd sure LOVE to make the point clear that it's the attention given to these posts that creates the bigger problem.

And then inevitably it's someone who didn't start the thread that crosses the line and gets a warning, because it's only when rules are broken that we step in.

Again I would ask what defines a shitpost? We have been fairly lenient (more so than I would want, TBH), and STILL we get the "mods are being too PC and deleting/locking every thread that…(fill in the blank)" responses.

We can't win, we always offend someone whether we step in and take action or stand aside and let it play out.

What may end up happening here is that we start broadly deleting EVERYTHING that comes even close to crossing any line, driving those folks (and many more) away, but maybe we'll end up with a smaller/nicer place to hang out? Cause I for one sure don't want this to turn back into the old PUF, which is one of the motivating factors for my volunteering to be a moderator even though I knew there might be blow-back coming my way.

Anyway, it's probably time in the life of this forum to reflect and make some choices, which I'd like to be influenced by the user base. So let's keep this conversation going, by all means!
:)

EDIT: Oh, and fwiw there have been many "kind warnings", followed by permanent-bans in some cases, so it's not like we're just sitting around watching the wheels go round and round.
Selig Audio, LLC

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esselfortium
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Post 23 Sep 2017

I don't agree with the premise that being harder on trolls would drive people away and make the forum community smaller. On the contrary, I can say with certainty that letting antagonism and bad-faith arguments run rampant is itself driving people away right now. No one wants to be jumped on by contrarian trolls who want to drag everyone into an embarrassing slapfight, so it's easier to just keep quiet and find something else to do instead of posting here.

In my experience, maintaining a friendly community is inherently going to annoy unfriendly people. Rather than walking on eggshells for fear of further upsetting those who are already so dedicated to being upset, it's better to focus firstly on making the site more welcoming instead of letting a few trolls keep poisoning the place for everyone else.
Sarah Mancuso
New album「Transmission Control: Music from Subserial Network」is out now!

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CaliforniaBurrito
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Location: San Diego, CA

Post 23 Sep 2017

esselfortium wrote:
23 Sep 2017
No one wants to be jumped on by contrarian trolls who want to drag everyone into an embarrassing slapfight, so it's easier to just keep quiet and find something else to do instead of posting here.
Find something else to do...like make music? :lightbulb: Imagine that! Kill 'em with sound waves. :clap:

I think Herman might've had a couple drinks before posting this since he is one of the more prolific ones here. :lol: Petty insecurity goes out the window if you're really about your productivity. I sit in the eye of a shit storm listening to some reference tracks and thinking about how I need to find more balance in my low end. :oops:

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esselfortium
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Post 23 Sep 2017

CaliforniaBurrito wrote:
23 Sep 2017
esselfortium wrote:
23 Sep 2017
No one wants to be jumped on by contrarian trolls who want to drag everyone into an embarrassing slapfight, so it's easier to just keep quiet and find something else to do instead of posting here.
Find something else to do...like make music? :lightbulb: Imagine that! Kill 'em with sound waves. :clap:
Sure, but I just don't think that negates the significance of how toxic this place gets. The people running ReasonTalk surely want the forum here to be a place folks feel comfortable going to to ask for advice and share techniques, instead of a place full of harassment and nastiness.
Sarah Mancuso
New album「Transmission Control: Music from Subserial Network」is out now!

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CaliforniaBurrito
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Location: San Diego, CA

Post 23 Sep 2017

esselfortium wrote:
23 Sep 2017
Sure, but I just don't think that negates the significance of how toxic this place gets. The people running ReasonTalk surely want the forum here to be a place folks feel comfortable going to to ask for advice and share techniques, instead of a place full of harassment and nastiness.
This will never be your friendly neighborhood coffee shop and if it was so sterile then I wouldn't feel comfortable. This is more like a busy city street corner and you don't have to address everybody in such an environment. Are you going to take time and energy to address the mentally ill person on the corner shouting about how the world is screwed up and is going to end soon or do you keep walking to your destination? :lol:

Fun fact: there were some people who thought the world was gonna end today Sep 23.

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esselfortium
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Post 23 Sep 2017

I'm not sure what most of that has to do with what I've said, but hopefully some of my points have made sense to others.
Sarah Mancuso
New album「Transmission Control: Music from Subserial Network」is out now!

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selig
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Post 23 Sep 2017

esselfortium wrote:
23 Sep 2017
I don't agree with the premise that being harder on trolls would drive people away and make the forum community smaller. On the contrary, I can say with certainty that letting antagonism and bad-faith arguments run rampant is itself driving people away right now. No one wants to be jumped on by contrarian trolls who want to drag everyone into an embarrassing slapfight, so it's easier to just keep quiet and find something else to do instead of posting here.

In my experience, maintaining a friendly community is inherently going to annoy unfriendly people. Rather than walking on eggshells for fear of further upsetting those who are already so dedicated to being upset, it's better to focus firstly on making the site more welcoming instead of letting a few trolls keep poisoning the place for everyone else.
I can assure you we don't walk on eggshells!

Also I wonder why it's all or nothing? There are really only a few threads at any given time that are of the nature we are discussing here, right? That leaves hundreds of threads to read/post in. You don't have to ether 'be quiet' or "find something else to do instead of posting here' do you?

Again, if all the "positive" users left the negative threads alone, they would die a quick and natural death, no? If folks want to troll, they can start a troll thread that only trolls would post in, which of course would quickly get quite boring I would think.

It's ONLY the engagement of the non-trolls that actually feeds the trolls IMO. But maybe I'm wrong about this - seems to be no way of knowing since no matter what I say, those 'drama' threads are THE MOST POPULAR here. Period.

So I have to wonder - it that what most folks really want? If not, why feed those threads and cause them to shade out the other more positive threads? We are literally doing this to ourselves when we do this, at least to some degree.

I'm not trying to shift the blame, like I've said MY personal style would be to throw out ever little bit of garbage to encourage folks to not litter, since it seems even the well intentioned among us cannot resist feeding the trolls once they are in the door.

So it leaves the trash collection to the mods, which I'm willing to try as an experiment if all other mods (and Kenni) agrees. But still, I have to wonder why folks complain about the stuff THEY have a hand in creating…hope I'm TOTALLY wrong about that point of view!
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

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normen
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Post 23 Sep 2017

For me personally its kinda hard to just ignore these things.

See, when I post somewhere its most of the time to explain the technical circumstances, after all thats my profession. Often time its also when somebody misinterprets or falsely explains some technical things - I get in and try to correct the statements.

This of course sometimes leads to people antagonizing me over the fact that I basically said that they are wrong. Then - often without me noticing in the beginning - the discussion slowly slides southwards, I keep on trying to explain the issue at hand and the poster keeps getting more agitated.

So yes, in both directions I‘d like some moderation - especially as its hard to find back to „common ground“ once the discussion blew up. I‘d be fine with a comment like „Normen maybe don‘t start by saying ‚thats bullshit‘. And [other person], please refrain from name calling.“

Toxic behavior is clearly visible, people not getting how they might come across badly can also be recognized. Moderator isn‘t an easy or fair job but I think it has to be done, even if some people won‘t like the „Big Brother“ approach - people should be aware that this is a public forum and not a place to fight personal fights.

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selig
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Post 23 Sep 2017

esselfortium wrote:
23 Sep 2017
CaliforniaBurrito wrote:
23 Sep 2017


Find something else to do...like make music? :lightbulb: Imagine that! Kill 'em with sound waves. :clap:
Sure, but I just don't think that negates the significance of how toxic this place gets. The people running ReasonTalk surely want the forum here to be a place folks feel comfortable going to to ask for advice and share techniques, instead of a place full of harassment and nastiness.
Yes indeed we do, but we also HOPE most of the others here want the same thing and are just as willing to work towards that goal as we are. Mods alone cannot solve this IMO.

Again, I could be wrong about this, so please prove me wrong!

EDIT: and thanks to everyone participating in this discussion, I think it's time to address these issues here.
Selig Audio, LLC

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CaliforniaBurrito
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Location: San Diego, CA

Post 23 Sep 2017

esselfortium wrote:
23 Sep 2017
I'm not sure what most of that has to do with what I've said, but hopefully some of my points have made sense to others.
No need to feed the shitposts. If a technical thread turns sour then leave. Some guy recently attacked my personality and called me a dick because I was going off on the word "crappy" and how a mono mix isn't supposed to sound as such. THE END. I'm pretty sure that's worse than being called a fanboy which I would gladly wear as a badge of honor. Can you make me a t-shirt Noel? This all just seems silly to me because the rabbit hole goes as deep as you want it to go. Everything from the "Reason sound" to the guys complaining about R10 who can't even produce a solid track as it is (they will blame it on the DAW) - just pretty ridiculous. :)

PS Love this EP I'm currently listening to, Sarah. :)

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avasopht
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Post 23 Sep 2017

selig wrote:
23 Sep 2017
If someone 'shitposts' and no one replies, it quickly goes off the radar and is not an issue.
Though ideal may be a little unrealistic. This requires 100% awareness and cooperation of non response among all users. Also I think that it's not always clear when it is happening at first. The first post could just appear to be someone having a genuine problem, or in need of an understanding of what is going on.

But who knows, .. maybe non-response will catch among long term forum users after they realize their attempts to reason with them will be futile.

The more deliberately antagonizing, particularly on a personal level, I just think on principle alone warrants moderation.
selig wrote:
23 Sep 2017
IMO the bigger problem and the one I'm always commenting about is WHY are all these flies attracted to the shitposts?
There are variants of motivations. Some just want to clarify their position. So the person says, "you're just saying my problem isn't important and that it's my fault and that I have to check my settings. Propellerhead don't care about us." A well meaning member may try to explain.

And then you just have the outlet graffiti. I guess it's much more of a social thing. You have someone coming into the forum with the clear intent of just muddying the waters. This might all be about basic human emotions wanting to root out bad actors.
selig wrote:
23 Sep 2017
Again I would ask what defines a shitpost? We have been fairly lenient (more so than I would want, TBH), and STILL we get the "mods are being too PC and deleting/locking every thread that…(fill in the blank)" responses.
There are no hard and fast rules, though I think that persistence regardless of facts is a strong indicator. If someone says, "you're doing X," a person response, "no I am not, you simply misunderstood me," and then the person baits them, calling them fanboys and so on and in general creating a sour feel then I think we have a strong candidate.

It's difficult to pin down and define, which is an age old problem of law. Personally I think in a much more beysian manner. I imagine you could probably train a spam filter to flag potential shitposts, ... ... ... :idea:
selig wrote:
23 Sep 2017
We can't win, we always offend someone whether we step in and take action or stand aside and let it play out.
I think some feelings are less important than others. If someone is genuinely misbehaving or being unsociable, to hell with their sour feelings. They are not only not contributing, but they are probably discouraging valuable contributions.

I mean, a few members left at the time of the VST announcement because they anticipated this. There are probably a dozen or so beginners who may have benefited from fruitful technical discussion but were turned off by the shitposts.

I know I've seen it before, and this was among a civil forum who were just convinced someone was lying of their identity and drove him out.
selig wrote:
23 Sep 2017
Anyway, it's probably time in the life of this forum to reflect and make some choices, which I'd like to be influenced by the user base. So let's keep this conversation going, by all means!
Well I think you guys have done a fantastic job. I in all honesty considered creating a forum to replace the PUF myself. I have the skills, I have the servers, but nah, I knew that that sound moderation was beyond my capabilities.
---

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joeyluck
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Post 23 Sep 2017

Please use the report feature immediately when you see something you think shouldn't be tolerated. We aren't here 24/7 and can't possibly read every post daily. Mods can step in and act more quickly before something escalates with the help of the community reporting issues and doing so sooner. We do have a set of rules and guidelines, but we moderate for the community. Without reports, the assumption can be that the community is ok with the state of things. Many things can get on my nerves, but I personally am not going to moderate based on what gets on my nerves.

I have banned users permanently and immediately for disgusting hate speech without blinking an eye. We certainly have no toleration for that. I've seen some of the usual name calling recently, directed at myself as well, but that IMO is something that isn't the same degree and can sometimes be dealt with differently. And several users recently have been contacted and warned about their conduct. Even if you don't see bans happening, know that PM's and conversations are being had and moderators are doing what they feel they can do to keep the peace and keep everybody happy.

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normen
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Post 23 Sep 2017

joeyluck wrote:
23 Sep 2017
Please use the report feature immediately when you see something you think shouldn't be tolerated.
Thats just not what you do when you get in a heated discussion... Others could do that when they see a discussion going south I suppose but I don‘t think many people would be „calling for mommy“ like that?

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CaliforniaBurrito
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Post 23 Sep 2017

normen wrote:
23 Sep 2017
Thats just not what you do when you get in a heated discussion... Others could do that when they see a discussion going south I suppose but I don‘t think many people would be „calling for mommy“ like that?
Haha! This made my day. Normen is out there keeping it gangsta. You either let it go or you whoop somebody's ass. No telling. Hehe!

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joeyluck
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Post 23 Sep 2017

normen wrote:
23 Sep 2017
joeyluck wrote:
23 Sep 2017
Please use the report feature immediately when you see something you think shouldn't be tolerated.
Thats just not what you do when you get in a heated discussion... Others could do that when they see a discussion going south I suppose but I don‘t think many people would be „calling for mommy“ like that?
Yes, I would think those making the reports would be the ones who care about the moderation; the ones asking for the moderation. Those engaging in and entertaining the heated discussions are less likely the ones who care as much. So yeah, I say report what you are not happy with and don't contribute to the fire if you don't want the flames.

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normen
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Post 23 Sep 2017

joeyluck wrote:
23 Sep 2017
Yes, I would think those making the reports would be the ones who care about the moderation; the ones asking for the moderation. Those engaging in and entertaining the heated discussions are less likely the ones who care as much. So yeah, I say report what you are not happy with and don't contribute to the fire if you don't want the flames.
I'd say that especially those who like to discuss have an interest in those discussions staying civil but I see what you mean. :)

Image

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selig
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Post 23 Sep 2017

CaliforniaBurrito wrote:
23 Sep 2017
normen wrote:
23 Sep 2017
Thats just not what you do when you get in a heated discussion... Others could do that when they see a discussion going south I suppose but I don‘t think many people would be „calling for mommy“ like that?
Haha! This made my day. Normen is out there keeping it gangsta. You either let it go or you whoop somebody's ass. No telling. Hehe!
Well, if you let it go, you stay here. If you respond with an ass whooping, you're gone.
Your choice!
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

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selig
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Post 23 Sep 2017

normen wrote:
23 Sep 2017
joeyluck wrote:
23 Sep 2017
Please use the report feature immediately when you see something you think shouldn't be tolerated.
Thats just not what you do when you get in a heated discussion... Others could do that when they see a discussion going south I suppose but I don‘t think many people would be „calling for mommy“ like that?
The point is, heated discussions can get you banned.
If someone sees it as "calling for mommy" and instead "takes matters into their own hands", then they will probably get banned.
What's the point of having mods then?
Selig Audio, LLC

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selig
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Post 23 Sep 2017

Check it out, y'all:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7503246
Selig Audio, LLC

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normen
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Post 23 Sep 2017

selig wrote:
23 Sep 2017
Well, if you let it go, you stay here. If you respond with an ass whooping, you're gone.
I guess by "ass whooping" he meant proving ones point, not derogatory comments.
selig wrote:
23 Sep 2017
The point is, heated discussions can get you banned.
If someone sees it as "calling for mommy" and instead "takes matters into their own hands", then they will probably get banned.
I was more picturing a situation where one party starts using swear words and personal attacks, derailing the discussion - "taking matters into your own hands" might be just leaving that discussion or staying on topic - but that won't make it clear to the attacking party that this behavior isn't okay.
selig wrote:
23 Sep 2017
What's the point of having mods then?
Its like a lifeguard I suppose, they're not only running out in the water if somebody tells them to, right? :)

Edit: Note this isn't criticism per se, I think the whole forum team does a great job - but this thread is about discussing this topic.

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