Latency requires breakout box audio card?

[epichouse]

Hi. It's been a long time since I've been making music.

I bought a new laptop this year in the January sales.
I recently upgraded to Reason 12
I have just bought a 2nd hand Nektar P4 and I'm pottering about trying to just get things playing any old how for now.

I'm struggling to get my brain into gear as there's so much to learn since last time I was actively making music.

I think my new laptop ought to be fast enough to cope well with Reason.

My old laptop used to flake out when I had too many instruments running. I used to use the ASIO Fruity Loop card driver to get the latency down - and playing the keyboard on it was generally okay.

On my new laptop, even with the FL Asio driver running, my latency is 64ms. Playing the piano on a virtual synth is a bit annoying. It won't go below 60 on any of the settings or on any other of the listed drivers (like "DX").

I have seen some videos on YT tutorials where people have 1ms latency shown on their settings. How are they doing this?

This is my laptop spec:

Microsoft Windows 11 Home
System Model Crosshair 15 R6E B12UGZ
System Type x64-based PC
Processor 12th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-12900H, 2900 Mhz, 14 Core(s), 20 Logical Processor(s)
Installed Physical Memory (RAM) 32.0 GB
Total Physical Memory 31.7 GB
Available Physical Memory 20.0 GB
Total Virtual Memory 33.7 GB
Available Virtual Memory 14.5 GB

I don't know if my general audio is "RealTek" or "Nvidia High Definition Audio". They are both listed. DX options are also shown in Reason.

I gather that the laptop sound card is the problem and that I need to buy some kind of dedicated audio interface for it?

Is this what's going wrong with my setup so far?

[miyaru]

Get one of the new Focusrite boxes, they are around $150,= for a 4th generation one.

I have a third generation Scarlett, a 18i20 and it runs @ 64 samples, with ultra low latency. This is good for playing instruments with keyboards etc.

With your laptop specs and a good audio interface it will run smooth and fast.

My computer is already old, it’s an Intel i7-7700 from a few years back ans still runs well!

[pushedbutton]

Yeah.
ASIO Compliant audio interface is a pretty standard requirement for any DAW.
This is pretty much due to Microsoft sleeping on it for years so it's not a standard Windows feature.
Welcome the rabbit hole.
There's plenty of advise around for the interface and speakers so I'll not get started on it here.

[epichouse]

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

When you haven't been remotely into the scene for a long time, when you try and get back to it its like starting from scratch.

I don't understand the difference between a "Arturia MiniFuse 2 2-In / 2-Out USB Audio & MIDI Interface" and the new "Focusrite Solo 4th gen"

The arturia includes midi ports and is on sale for about £105. It looks to be the same as the Focusrite 2/2 that's about twice the price. I guess there must be a good reason for this...

If I abandoned the Midi option and stuck to Focusrite, the 3rd gen "Solo" is currently priced £50 less than the 4th gen. Is there really all that much difference to opt for the 4th gen? (It's about 1/3rd more expensive right now).

There seems to be a staggering amount of devices out there and I'm not even sure they're all soundcards that'd reduce my latency, Are some of these kinds of things just "interfaces" to plug something into like a 5 gang extension socket - or would they all include chips and such to reduce latency?

Many of the blurbs so far on different manufacturer's sites seem to be aimed at recording live music or studio instruments.

I don't play guitars, drums, or have microphones. I will be making dance music via Nektar and Reason, maybe (one day) plugging in a midi-synth or a Behringer 303 clone....or just using it to feed my DJ mixer or record players through to record DJ sets and digitise my ridiculously large record collection - if the interface is going to get me a better sound than the "line in" port I use now.

Focusrite seems one of the more popular brands, so I guess they must be doing something right.

(Ps, Hi to a fellow Lancashire-dweller. I'm in Nelson).

[epichouse]

The key differences between 3 and 4 seem to be the moved input locations, a general 10db gain improvement, a separate headphone level control and some nifty things to auto-detect a good gain level from a live instrument and a means to try and avoid clipping of input audio. I've found the gen 3 at an offer of £80 new from Focusrite. The gen 4s is £140. I'd prefer the jack leads to be in the back like the mk3, but I think I might regret not having the improved internals and the separate headphone volume. It's never straight forward is it?!

[miyaru]

The key differences between 3 and 4 seem to be the moved input locations, a general 10db gain improvement, a separate headphone level control and some nifty things to auto-detect a good gain level from a live instrument and a means to try and avoid clipping of input audio. I've found the gen 3 at an offer of £80 new from Focusrite. The gen 4s is £140. I'd prefer the jack leads to be in the back like the mk3, but I think I might regret not having the improved internals and the separate headphone volume. It's never straight forward is it?!

No it is never straight forward LOL, that’s why I choose the 18i20 back in the day……..

[Ichooselife]

Hi. It's been a long time since I've been making music.

I bought a new laptop this year in the January sales.
I recently upgraded to Reason 12
I have just bought a 2nd hand Nektar P4 and I'm pottering about trying to just get things playing any old how for now.

I'm struggling to get my brain into gear as there's so much to learn since last time I was actively making music.

I think my new laptop ought to be fast enough to cope well with Reason.

My old laptop used to flake out when I had too many instruments running. I used to use the ASIO Fruity Loop card driver to get the latency down - and playing the keyboard on it was generally okay.

On my new laptop, even with the FL Asio driver running, my latency is 64ms. Playing the piano on a virtual synth is a bit annoying. It won't go below 60 on any of the settings or on any other of the listed drivers (like "DX").

I have seen some videos on YT tutorials where people have 1ms latency shown on their settings. How are they doing this?

This is my laptop spec:

Microsoft Windows 11 Home
System Model Crosshair 15 R6E B12UGZ
System Type x64-based PC
Processor 12th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-12900H, 2900 Mhz, 14 Core(s), 20 Logical Processor(s)
Installed Physical Memory (RAM) 32.0 GB
Total Physical Memory 31.7 GB
Available Physical Memory 20.0 GB
Total Virtual Memory 33.7 GB
Available Virtual Memory 14.5 GB

I don't know if my general audio is "RealTek" or "Nvidia High Definition Audio". They are both listed. DX options are also shown in Reason.

I gather that the laptop sound card is the problem and that I need to buy some kind of dedicated audio interface for it?

Is this what's going wrong with my setup so far?

it seems such a shame that we have to buy these audio interfaces just for the asio drivers doesn't it which is in essence what a lot of us windows users do , apple users have built in audio drivers , so they don’t need to buy anything if there not recording ,

my m audio m track solo has
input 5ms
output 2ms
on the asio drivers

and is dirt cheap if that helps

[miyaru]

Hi. It's been a long time since I've been making music.

I bought a new laptop this year in the January sales.
I recently upgraded to Reason 12
I have just bought a 2nd hand Nektar P4 and I'm pottering about trying to just get things playing any old how for now.

I'm struggling to get my brain into gear as there's so much to learn since last time I was actively making music.

I think my new laptop ought to be fast enough to cope well with Reason.

My old laptop used to flake out when I had too many instruments running. I used to use the ASIO Fruity Loop card driver to get the latency down - and playing the keyboard on it was generally okay.

On my new laptop, even with the FL Asio driver running, my latency is 64ms. Playing the piano on a virtual synth is a bit annoying. It won't go below 60 on any of the settings or on any other of the listed drivers (like "DX").

I have seen some videos on YT tutorials where people have 1ms latency shown on their settings. How are they doing this?

This is my laptop spec:

Microsoft Windows 11 Home
System Model Crosshair 15 R6E B12UGZ
System Type x64-based PC
Processor 12th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-12900H, 2900 Mhz, 14 Core(s), 20 Logical Processor(s)
Installed Physical Memory (RAM) 32.0 GB
Total Physical Memory 31.7 GB
Available Physical Memory 20.0 GB
Total Virtual Memory 33.7 GB
Available Virtual Memory 14.5 GB

I don't know if my general audio is "RealTek" or "Nvidia High Definition Audio". They are both listed. DX options are also shown in Reason.

I gather that the laptop sound card is the problem and that I need to buy some kind of dedicated audio interface for it?

Is this what's going wrong with my setup so far?

it seems such a shame that we have to buy these audio interfaces just for the asio drivers doesn't it which is in essence what a lot of us windows users do , apple users have built in audio drivers , so they don’t need to buy anything if there not recording ,

my m audio m track solo has
input 5ms
output 2ms
on the asio drivers

and is dirt cheap if that helps

But I doubt that the headphone out of an Apple Macbook or any desktop Apple has the same quality as a an external unit of decent quality. My Focusrite has also balanced outputs for monitor use with powered monitors.

I also make music on my iPad, but the sound quality is significantly less…….

That said anyone milage may vary of course, but for my homestudio I want decent sound which doesn’t have to break the bank. As said before I use the the Focusrite 18i20 into a Presonus Monitor Station v2 into Presonus Eris E8 mk1 monitors, and that is more than enough for my small homestudio.

I have to say I have two monitor path at the inputs of the Monitor Station - one DAW and Spotify only and the second monitor path consist also live instruments such as the outputs of my cabsimulator pedal ( Mooer Radar) and my Korg N1 and my Groovebox Yamaha RM1x. That keeps some inputs open for my mics if a singer chimes in.

[Ichooselife]

it seems such a shame that we have to buy these audio interfaces just for the asio drivers doesn't it which is in essence what a lot of us windows users do , apple users have built in audio drivers , so they don’t need to buy anything if there not recording ,

my m audio m track solo has
input 5ms
output 2ms
on the asio drivers

and is dirt cheap if that helps

But I doubt that the headphone out of an Apple Macbook or any desktop Apple has the same quality as a an external unit of decent quality. My Focusrite has also balanced outputs for monitor use with powered monitors.

I also make music on my iPad, but the sound quality is significantly less…….

That said anyone milage may vary of course, but for my homestudio I want decent sound which doesn’t have to break the bank. As said before I use the the Focusrite 18i20 into a Presonus Monitor Station v2 into Presonus Eris E8 mk1 monitors, and that is more than enough for my small homestudio.

I have to say I have two monitor path at the inputs of the Monitor Station - one DAW and Spotify only and the second monitor path consist also live instruments such as the outputs of my cabsimulator pedal ( Mooer Radar) and my Korg N1 and my Groovebox Yamaha RM1x. That keeps some inputs open for my mics if a singer chimes in.

probably doesn’t , but the op doesn’t need to record anything so he doesn’t need an interface really unless he can get better latency and on windows unfortunately you need an interface for drivers regardless if you want to record ( unless you want to use asio4all which i don’t ) i think the quality of headphones really comes down to buying decent headphones( my sennheiser hd280 pro sound good anywhere ,c we nit pick all this stuff and i think an apple headphone port is going to suffice perfectly m8, if he had an apple laptop which he doesn’t , just don’t get the behringer interface soo as they don’t have a drivers ( you can find an old driver for them but it’s unsupported and mostly you will use asio4all which is pointless why i bought the cheap m audio m track solo

i used to have a focusrite
if your in the uk you can get interfaces second hand cheap on cex , which is usually cheaper than ebay i sometimes find .

[miyaru]

It is a shame that Microsoft did not adres this. But on the other side most laptops have a Realtek audio chipset which suck anyway…..

That said, a decent laptop with a small interface is still cheaper than a Macbook Pro.

And no, the OP does not have the need to record audio, but wants to play keyboard sort of live in Reason, so low latency is mandatory.

[epichouse]

Cheers guys. I ended up going for a focusrite 2/2 - but took advantage of the prices being slashed for the 3rd gen model now that the 4th has just come out.

It should be arriving some time later today, so I hope it does what I think it will do.

The 4th gen did have a few better features to be fair, but I doubt I'd have been making much use of them. I therefore saved about £70 as the unit was on offer for £119 including postage.

I must be getting old because I'm not looking forward to trying to figure out where it will fit into my needs when it comes to wiring it up. I suppose I will suss it out eventually.

If I use it downstairs I have my laptop plugged in under my LG TV and I'm using an ARC HDMI to the TV to put the sounds from the laptop out of the TV....but I have the TV's output going from a optical port (as it has no headphone jack socket!) to a converter box, to a set of Edifier speakers at each side of the TV.

I tried the "Asio4All" driver last week and whilst it got my latency down a little from what I had previously, the sounds were coming out of my laptop speakers and I couldn't figure out how to get it to be Asio4all and to come out of my TV/Edifier speakers.

If I take my Nektar, laptop and Focusrite upstairs to the back bedroom, I need to hook it to my Technics L1210's and DJ mixer and back out to some Kali Audio speakers, probably back through a mixing channel on my DJ mixer.

It might go smoothly..... I would have eaten all this for breakfast 20 years ago, but now, I feel like an old man learning how to switch on and make a call on a smart-phone.

I used Reason 5 the most....and now I bought 12, it is glaringly obvious that so much has changed. I used to start with a mixing desk and bang some delay and reverb under the mixing desk, but even that's all changed now. I don't understand what I'm doing yet.

I'm trying to find time to watch some YouTube tutorials I found on v12.

[miyaru]

Congrats with your new interface! And yes I know the feeling of getting older when it comes to install things and getting used to new features and versions.

Sometimes I think back to the days I used a Roland VS 2480CD 24 track HD recorder/mixer with my Yamaha RM1x sequencer. This setup had no hassles whatsoever and worked out of the box.

But at that time, about 22 years ago, pc’s weren’t that reliable at all. My hardware setup was rocksolid, and before this I had a Yamaha o1V mixer and a Fostex D 108 8 track HD recorder and the RM1x.

Anyway PC’s and Mac’s are much more reliable now, and way more flexible. That is for sure!

Take your time, be in no hurry, and everything is going to be alright!

[epichouse]

Hi. I managed to get the thing going and hooked up to my other gear and speakers - but at the moment I think I've made a mistake buying the Focusrite.

I set it up in Reason to use the focusrite Asio driver and despite dropping the audio quality to 44.1 the latency is still pretty shocking.

These are my settings:



If I increase the buffers, the quality or reduce the sliders to anything less, playing the piano sounds awful.

With my specification of laptop (above), and with an (originally £190) dedicated card for sound I was hoping to be at at least 48khz and around 5ms or less on the latency.

This looks to be a bit of a disaster.

I'm pretty deflated and disappointed right now.

[jam-s]

Have you optimised your laptop for high performance audio? Most OS defaults are rather bad and focus on power saving instead of low latency.

[epichouse]

I haven't - and Ive never even heard of that being a thing.

I hope it is something that's possible as otherwise this attempt at getting back into music again could be over before it even really got started.

Surely my laptop spec should cream this kind of stuff and last month or so this sound card was worth about £190. Its plugged direct into the laptop too, not a hub or anything, if that'd matter.

I just loaded up a Roland synth at the above settings and its crackling like fried bacon around the edges. Disaster.

I will try and see on google what you mean with the optimisation thing. Cheers for bringing it to my attention.

[jam-s]

See for example here or here or here:

[rmtcvolte]

Hi. I managed to get the thing going and hooked up to my other gear and speakers - but at the moment I think I've made a mistake buying the Focusrite.

If I increase the buffers, the quality or reduce the sliders to anything less, playing the piano sounds awful.

With my specification of laptop (above), and with an (originally £190) dedicated card for sound I was hoping to be at at least 48khz and around 5ms or less on the latency.

This looks to be a bit of a disaster.

I'm pretty deflated and disappointed right now.

Have you tried the following?:

• deselect "safe mode" on scarlett settings

• reduce "max audio threads" in reason preferences to 14

• and select a much higher sampel rate, like 96k

• in windows (as mentioned) goto Settings->System->Power & battery->Power mode->Best performance (make sure not to be on Battery saver mode)

• try a different USB port

• try the Scarlett on a different PC if possible

[epichouse]

Thanks all.

I've tried to do all I can with the above settings, except for altering the BIOS, which I'm a bit uncomfortable about tackling.

I've spent about two and a half hours on this now and I'm still not too sure how it is going to pan out in the long term.

At the moment, I have a reason file with about seven instruments loaded, but only a bassline and a drum loop actually placed on the arrangement. The rest are synths or piano sounds I'm auditioning along with the track, via the Nektar P4.

I don't really understand how this can be - but the piano seems to now be playing okay at a whopping 22ms or so latency and the synths aren't tending to crackle when playing held chords.


upload images

The other day, I had lower quality setting and a lower latency rate and it was croaking as well as being 'delayed' between pressing the keys and hearing the sounds if I moved it above a certain number.

How can it now be a higher rate and a higher latency but quite instant on the key-presses?

When I try and move it lower down for latency, it starts to get a bit croaky again....but if it's going to play okay and be good quality at 22ms, I suppose it can be left there.

Do people still share Reason songs? About 20 years ago you could download them (and there was even a very naughty convertor to turn protected songs into editable ones from what I remember...but for good reason, I think Propellerhead fixed that loophole!).

I think I might need to download a substantial dance track with quite a few native Reason instruments and effects and see how my system holds up and how the sound card holds up to a proper workout. I suspect that bashing a few chords on a polysynth preset isn't really a good indication of how my set up will perform later.

I might have a look around for something a bit more professional because I don't know what I'm doing enough yet to pack out a proper track myself.

Again, thanks for the advice and links and tips - on the face of it, so far, it seems to have helped.

[epichouse]

I've found some demo songs on the Reason Studios site - so I think that will do the trick.

[miyaru]

Have you looked in the BIOS settings, or don’t you feel alright with that?

Sometimes with laptops, there is also a cpu throttling setting beside the setting in windows.

To put it simply: this causes huge problems playing a DAW as it idles as much as it can. And once there is demand for cpu power it has to start scaling up, which takes some rime. I had a Lenovo laptop in which ghe BIOS setting was not adjustable for cpu throttling, so it was useless as a DAW laptop. I have to say it wasn’t expensive or fast anyway, but still a thing to consider.

My advice would be check that, or let someone do it for you. I sure think it is the culprit…….