Meanwhile at Bitwig Studio..

[NMHindman]

It occurs to me that, whether RS or Bitwig, their consumer (musician) demographics probably lean towards the liberal-side, with a built-in anti-corporate bias, a factor which their marketing departments should utilize, rather than offend.

[Jackjackdaw]

I think it’s the exploitation that is causing the offence.

[crimsonwarlock]

Sorry I’m not able to make any sense of this, I’m sure I’m missing something simple…

Let me put it this way, if there is not another update ever, I'm still using Reason for what it does RIGHT NOW. What the company does right now, goes to future versions and releases, but what the DAW does today is what I use it for.

[Jac459]

It occurs to me that, whether RS or Bitwig, their consumer (musician) demographics probably lean towards the liberal-side, with a built-in anti-corporate bias, a factor which their marketing departments should utilize, rather than offend.

In such small companies, being anti-corporate is being anti-employees. It is not like they are doing so much margin... That's how we have small company like bitwig destroying NI giant in terms of innovations, because of a few kickass individuals...
My point is if we always refuse to pay for their work, they will just send us fuck ourselves and go to high money making sectors.

[avasopht]

In such small companies, being anti-corporate is being anti-employees. It is not like they are doing so much margin... That's how we have small company like bitwig destroying NI giant in terms of innovations, because of a few kickass individuals...
My point is if we always refuse to pay for their work, they will just send us fuck ourselves and go to high money making sectors.

Musicians spend hundreds, and some thousands on their gear.

All that's happened here is that Bitwig betrayed their end of the commitment.

Quite simply it all comes down to this: the entire premise of their subscription was to get everything from Bitwig.

Hence why they've rewritten the subscription agreement to now restrict it to the DAW.

However, that means they've changed the agreement.

These are people subscribing to updates and upgrades, so you can hardly describe them as being reluctant to pay, right?

And I'm pretty sure Bitwig don't have any financial issues to have an existential reason to increase the revenue from subscribers.

The fact it is an add on says this is effectively a DAW feature they've just separated out to make subscribers and non subscribing users pay more to use.

It would be like RS introducing paid Reason add ons that aren't included in R+, but are what previously would have been just a regular DAW update.

[Jac459]

Musicians spend hundreds, and some thousands on their gear.

All that's happened here is that Bitwig betrayed their end of the commitment.

Quite simply it all comes down to this: the entire premise of their subscription was to get everything from Bitwig.

Hence why they've rewritten the subscription agreement to now restrict it to the DAW.

However, that means they've changed the agreement.

These are people subscribing to updates and upgrades, so you can hardly describe them as being reluctant to pay, right?

And I'm pretty sure Bitwig don't have any financial issues to have an existential reason to increase the revenue from subscribers.

The fact it is an add on says this is effectively a DAW feature they've just separated out to make subscribers and non subscribing users pay more to use.

It would be like RS introducing paid Reason add ons that aren't included in R+, but are what previously would have been just a regular DAW update.

Thanks for taking the time to explain and... It is difficult to disagree with what you say as it is well informed and very logical.

The point that makes me have a different perspective than you even if I mostly agree with your logic is this part:
"the entire premise of their subscription was to get everything from Bitwig".
To me, the spirit of the subscription was not that. it was: "with this 1 year license, you will have a great support".
And in this perspective, I want to say that: "Hell yeah !! The support has been great !!!".

In order to prove my point, let's imagine I just bought the license one year ago, 9 October 2021, and see the support I would have had during this year.
I would be in version 4.0.5. It is worth mentioning that this version 4.0.5 has all the basic feature expected from a modern DAW already, M1 native support, VST3, full MPE and all. So what will my "1 year support" buy me ?

Here you go:
- 3 minor bug fixes version to go to ...
- Version 4.1 - 4 November 2021 : 9 new note FX (equivalent of RS Players), A new instrument (an awesome sampler with granular synthesis), 2 other note FX upgraded with new features, various (a lot) strong improvement to the overall DAW (colors, midi features, and all).
- 3 minor bug fixes version to go to ...
- Version 4.2 - 10 March 2022 : 3 new awesome and complex audio FX. 1 new extremely major feature : the note grid. It is a modular environment to develop your own players, a very rich and complex feature. And many many other new features and improvements, new modulators, devices improvements, DAW improvements and so on...
- 3 minor bug fixes version to go to ...
- Version 4.3 - 28th June 2023 : 2 additional devices, 1 major update of their lead synth, the polymer/grid which is also a full modular environment with many many modules to add on the modular environment (new filters, effects, sources and all). And again, a shit ton of improvements, to devices, the DAW, the release note is just too long. One major addition though. The compatibility with CLAP format.
- 5 minor bug vixes version since then...

So I think you are seeing my point here. Yes, I would have preferred to have everything three and these spectral devices coming to me for the initial price I paid. And I am certainly a little bit upset to have to pay. But to put back the things in their context, I still think the service has been overall not less than awesome since one year. I bought Reason for an higher price than this License + Yearly subscription of Bitwig and what did I get ? Can we try to compare ? We can't compare to R+ in my view because what you get during your subscription is... for life. Not something you rent like reason.

Reason is just an example here... I don't think any other vendor provide as much improvements as fast as they do.
They decided to make one of this improvement an add-on. I would preferred not. But knowing what they did for me. I am 100% fine with that.

[Chi-Individual]

One thing that has been completely clarified for me from reading the reddits and watching some vids, because I was interested in buying, is that most think of Bitwig as having a subscription based plan but it’s actually a maintenance plan. R+ is a sub program where you don’t own anything once the payments stop, Bitwig included all updates during your agreement after a one time payment for a specified timeframe. It would be more like if RS said “pay “this” amount for all updates and upgrades for a year and if we release R13-R15 in this time frame you get them all and own them and all things created related to it for no extra cost. Then once they have you locked in they change the language and charge you for things exclusive to the DAW and wrap it around an update so the add-on isn’t backwards compatible also, so you go the rest of your agreement missing out on features and updates that the original language states you are to receive. Once you remove the idea of subscription it gets clearer why people are so pissed.

[Jac459]

Once you remove the idea of subscription it gets clearer why people are so pissed.

I feel I made my point already and certainly should stop arguing as I may be the only one feeling clemency for Bitwig.
But here, as per your explanation, the only people who should be pissed are the ones who where not interested by the 4.3 (no convolution, no delay+, no CLAP, etc...) and are interested by spectral treatment (much more niche feature in my view).

Others, paying for the DAW evolutions have had an awful lot of evolutions so far (as I showed).

On my side, I don't plan to renew the yearly evolution immediately after expiration, I will wait a few weeks/months to get a new upgrade, if I feel it worth it.

[avasopht]

Thanks for taking the time to explain and... It is difficult to disagree with what you say as it is well informed and very logical.

The point that makes me have a different perspective than you even if I mostly agree with your logic is this part:
"the entire premise of their subscription was to get everything from Bitwig".
To me, the spirit of the subscription was not that. it was: "with this 1 year license, you will have a great support".
And in this perspective, I want to say that: "Hell yeah !! The support has been great !!!".

In order to prove my point, let's imagine I just bought the license one year ago, 9 October 2021, and see the support I would have had during this year.
I would be in version 4.0.5. It is worth mentioning that this version 4.0.5 has all the basic feature expected from a modern DAW already, M1 native support, VST3, full MPE and all. So what will my "1 year support" buy me ?

Here you go:
- 3 minor bug fixes version to go to ...
- Version 4.1 - 4 November 2021 : 9 new note FX (equivalent of RS Players), A new instrument (an awesome sampler with granular synthesis), 2 other note FX upgraded with new features, various (a lot) strong improvement to the overall DAW (colors, midi features, and all).
- 3 minor bug fixes version to go to ...
- Version 4.2 - 10 March 2022 : 3 new awesome and complex audio FX. 1 new extremely major feature : the note grid. It is a modular environment to develop your own players, a very rich and complex feature. And many many other new features and improvements, new modulators, devices improvements, DAW improvements and so on...
- 3 minor bug fixes version to go to ...
- Version 4.3 - 28th June 2023 : 2 additional devices, 1 major update of their lead synth, the polymer/grid which is also a full modular environment with many many modules to add on the modular environment (new filters, effects, sources and all). And again, a shit ton of improvements, to devices, the DAW, the release note is just too long. One major addition though. The compatibility with CLAP format.
- 5 minor bug vixes version since then...

So I think you are seeing my point here. Yes, I would have preferred to have everything three and these spectral devices coming to me for the initial price I paid. And I am certainly a little bit upset to have to pay. But to put back the things in their context, I still think the service has been overall not less than awesome since one year. I bought Reason for an higher price than this License + Yearly subscription of Bitwig and what did I get ? Can we try to compare ? We can't compare to R+ in my view because what you get during your subscription is... for life. Not something you rent like reason.

Reason is just an example here... I don't think any other vendor provide as much improvements as fast as they do.
They decided to make one of this improvement an add-on. I would preferred not. But knowing what they did for me. I am 100% fine with that.

The problem here is that their "maintenance subscription" wasn't just for bug fixes, and did include upgrades. It was whatever came within that time period. I've other software with the same agreement (but they also give you ownership after 2 years). Funnily enough, some of them have added separate products outside of the tier, but they've done it in a tasteful way (also they aren't just software but are actual services that spin up servers, etc).

Basically, it's about what the reasonable expectation is, as well as what they presented.

And it was presented as "you get everything from Bitwig within the time period", not just minor bug fixes. Hence why they changed the agreement to "you get everything in the DAW". They had to change the agreement to exclude their new DAW features, which suggests it would have originally qualified.

There is a certain etiquette to introducing tiers.

The backlash is a testament to the betrayal of expectation. They're not just complaining that there is a new tier, but that it betrays the expectation.

You personally might not have expected it, but it is worded in a way to create this expectation.

I have to pay close attention to these sorts of agreements because they could basically mean I have to carry out work for free. If you ever have to write up contracts and agreements, ... this will look super off to you.

[Faastwalker]

I think it’s the exploitation that is causing the offence.

At first I was thinking people can just not buy the add-on. Then I read about their so called ‘maintenance subscription’. I can appreciate why Bitwig users are upset after reading that.

[Jac459]

Thanks for taking the time to explain and... It is difficult to disagree with what you say as it is well informed and very logical.

The point that makes me have a different perspective than you even if I mostly agree with your logic is this part:
"the entire premise of their subscription was to get everything from Bitwig".
To me, the spirit of the subscription was not that. it was: "with this 1 year license, you will have a great support".
And in this perspective, I want to say that: "Hell yeah !! The support has been great !!!".

In order to prove my point, let's imagine I just bought the license one year ago, 9 October 2021, and see the support I would have had during this year.
I would be in version 4.0.5. It is worth mentioning that this version 4.0.5 has all the basic feature expected from a modern DAW already, M1 native support, VST3, full MPE and all. So what will my "1 year support" buy me ?

Here you go:
- 3 minor bug fixes version to go to ...
- Version 4.1 - 4 November 2021 : 9 new note FX (equivalent of RS Players), A new instrument (an awesome sampler with granular synthesis), 2 other note FX upgraded with new features, various (a lot) strong improvement to the overall DAW (colors, midi features, and all).
- 3 minor bug fixes version to go to ...
- Version 4.2 - 10 March 2022 : 3 new awesome and complex audio FX. 1 new extremely major feature : the note grid. It is a modular environment to develop your own players, a very rich and complex feature. And many many other new features and improvements, new modulators, devices improvements, DAW improvements and so on...
- 3 minor bug fixes version to go to ...
- Version 4.3 - 28th June 2023 : 2 additional devices, 1 major update of their lead synth, the polymer/grid which is also a full modular environment with many many modules to add on the modular environment (new filters, effects, sources and all). And again, a shit ton of improvements, to devices, the DAW, the release note is just too long. One major addition though. The compatibility with CLAP format.
- 5 minor bug vixes version since then...

So I think you are seeing my point here. Yes, I would have preferred to have everything three and these spectral devices coming to me for the initial price I paid. And I am certainly a little bit upset to have to pay. But to put back the things in their context, I still think the service has been overall not less than awesome since one year. I bought Reason for an higher price than this License + Yearly subscription of Bitwig and what did I get ? Can we try to compare ? We can't compare to R+ in my view because what you get during your subscription is... for life. Not something you rent like reason.

Reason is just an example here... I don't think any other vendor provide as much improvements as fast as they do.
They decided to make one of this improvement an add-on. I would preferred not. But knowing what they did for me. I am 100% fine with that.

The problem here is that their "maintenance subscription" wasn't just for bug fixes, and did include upgrades. It was whatever came within that time period. I've other software with the same agreement (but they also give you ownership after 2 years). Funnily enough, some of them have added separate products outside of the tier, but they've done it in a tasteful way (also they aren't just software but are actual services that spin up servers, etc).

Basically, it's about what the reasonable expectation is, as well as what they presented.

And it was presented as "you get everything from Bitwig within the time period", not just minor bug fixes. Hence why they changed the agreement to "you get everything in the DAW". They had to change the agreement to exclude their new DAW features, which suggests it would have originally qualified.

There is a certain etiquette to introducing tiers.

The backlash is a testament to the betrayal of expectation. They're not just complaining that there is a new tier, but that it betrays the expectation.

You personally might not have expected it, but it is worded in a way to create this expectation.

I have to pay close attention to these sorts of agreements because they could basically mean I have to carry out work for free. If you ever have to write up contracts and agreements, ... this will look super off to you.

Well I get your point and again mostly agree but I hope you don't think the upgrades given for free are minor. They are huge, if you read my post and seethe content of 4.1, .4 2, 4.3 That came for free last year, it is huge.

What is troubling me is nobody is thinking bitwig didnt deliver enough. Everybody is dead happy with the content they delivered. If they didn't publish the spectral addon nobody would have complained not to have it. Just because they delivered already an awful lot. Just compare with RS, it is like 10 times more...
So basically I find it twisted that people complained not because they didn't get enough but because they wanted ALL. That doesn't sound good to me. But then I agree, their marketing was not good and let you think that...

[Jac459]

On another note, has anybody tried these infamous spectral addons? They are just crazy. The sound you can create with them is just incredible.

[Faastwalker]

On another note, has anybody tried these infamous spectral addons? They are just crazy. The sound you can create with them is just incredible.

Yeah, but .......... the 'Maintenance Agreement'. No matter how good they are ........

[Jac459]

Well, let's agree to disagree...

So. In the big game of "no software company is good enough for musicians". Which company is still considered worthy?

Reason studios has been regularly called a "shit show" in this forum.
Steinberg and Avid are the mother of all Satans.
Reaper has been also criticised strongly here because they don't provide instruments.

So, ... Ableton, Studio One?

[Popey]

I happen to follow a you tuber who uses bitwig so saw a couple of videos on this and he was showing the eula included all add ons and general feeling in the comments were that people expect everything during their plan to be future proof.

Comments changing on bitwig website certainly fuelling the accusation of funny business. Personally I can understand the upset if the goalposts have moved midway through a contract.

Wether this is a miscommunication, error or something more sinister it does seem to have destroyed trust very quickly in people who recently praised the company.

Most all agree the daw is great but are still talking about not investing as much if at all. A terrible outlook for bitwig right now.

[crimsonwarlock]

Reaper has been also criticised strongly here because they don't provide instruments.

That has nothing to do with licensing politics. I'd say that Cockos is the most friendly and straight-up company in the game. Their license is cheap (I know, not every DAW company has a multimillionaire as the owner), it includes everything and even the next major update from when you purchase, and they even make reaper FX available outside the DAW for free so users of other DAWs can use them as well (and they are excellent). I think they are second to none in this regard.

[avasopht]

Well I get your point and again mostly agree but I hope you don't think the upgrades given for free are minor. They are huge, if you read my post and seethe content of 4.1, .4 2, 4.3 That came for free last year, it is huge.

That's the whole point of the subscription.

The point is that you don't just get minor point updates and patches, but whatever comes within that year, even if it's a major upgrade.

Whether people were happy with what they got is irrelevant.

The agreement was violated, and the premise of the subscription diminished.

It was an intentional betrayal of the agreement.

The subscription demanded trust. They violated that trust. They invalidated the promise.

[ravasb]

They should have just grandfathered in their current subscribers. It would have saved them a lot of hurt feelings. I can't imagine they are selling too many of these add ons right now. I am a current subscriber myself and have always hated their 'give us money and we will tell you later what you get" policy, but I felt they eventually gave pretty good value. I now feel like their efforts are not going to the subscription in the same way they used to, so my trust in them is pretty shaky.

[jam-s]

Sad... We are destroying our own market... Trolling all the companies trying to make money. At the end, we will have all the shitty developers, talented ones will go to other sectors.

I'd rather blame the respective marketing/management departments or VCs than the customers for the demise of the audio software ecosystem.

[integerpoet]

Most all agree the daw is great but are still talking about not investing as much if at all. A terrible outlook for bitwig right now.

Keep in mind that people who talk about such things online are merely the people who talk about such things online.

[Jac459]

Keep in mind that people who talk about such things online are merely the people who talk about such things online.

Love this perspective...

[Jac459]

I'd rather blame the respective marketing/management departments or VCs than the customers for the demise of the audio software ecosystem.

You really think than these companies have a marketing department? I would guess most of the case it is more Joe, developer, accountant, lawyer and marketing department the Tuesday, from 4 to 5 pm. LOL.

Anyway, we are master of our own destiny... the smarter thing is to use the DAW because of the DAW, not because of the company as smart person rightly said here.

[mimidancer]

I'm enjoying this after watching idiot YouTubers attack Reason for over a year. I can't wait till Live has its day.

[Jac459]

I'm enjoying this after watching idiot YouTubers attack Reason for over a year. I can't wait till Live has its day.

[avasopht]

It's worth looking at how others have done it.

Native Instruments introduced Komplete Ultimate at version 8. Then after a few more versions, they introduced Komplete Ultimate Collector's Edition.

FLStudio has also done this a few times, effectively downgrading the top tiers while introducing a new one (which is why I feel their "license updates/upgrades for life" is a bit of a red herring).

Truth is, for DAWs and sound libraries to be continuously worked on, they do need a regular income stream.

And since DAWs and sound libraries have been severely devalued over the last 20 years, they either need more users or a more regular stream of income from their users.

When I first got into the game, the status quo was that you could get a used starter sound module for a few hundred pounds, but you would have to fork out a good 2-3 thousand dollars if you wanted to have the latest sounds (which would be about 3-5 thousand today).

It's the same for video games. Adjusted for inflation, the Nintendo Entertainment System (launched in 1985) cost $432, and the average game cost $108, yet the budget for a game would probably be sub $1 million, compared to the $200+ million budgets you see for a AAA game today that we expect to buy for $40!

In 2003, Logic used to cost something like $1,000 ($1,700+ adjusted for inflation) ... note: I only know the price in pounds and have adjusted it. Apple acquired mastering tools that used to retail at around $2,000 and just included them in Logic for free (while also adding in a huge sound library that also used to cost quite a bit).

To make matters worse, you've got to be better than everything that is free, cheap or discounted. And there's little room for competition. Nobody needs a new DAW. And nobody needs any one particular DAW. Take away Studio One, and you've still got Cubase. SONAR is FREE. Take away Native Instruments and you've got IK Multimedia's SampleTank, Steinberg's Halion and their Absolute Collection, and East West's offerings.

Every offering is partially obsolete.

They're all being held to standards few people are truly willing to pay for.

The market has low viability IMO. It's effectively a hobbyist market selling production-grade products.

But that's even more reason to not violate agreements and betray trust as Bitwig has done. They've just devalued the maintenance subscription.