Mixing desks

[chrisb81]

Hi,

I've been using Reason for 10+ years with a variety of 4x4 and 8x8 USB audio interfaces.

Recently, I've been wanting to try mixing down to an outboard desk, for a few main reasons:

1. I'd like to use actual physical faders/controls to speed up my mastering and recording a bit.

2. I'd like to be able to patch in analog hardware to my effects chain relatively easily (eg, run all my outs pre-mix via a patchbay and then plug things in as and when I want).

3. I want to see if I can achieve a better sound quality/improve my production skills by trying this approach. (note, I'm not a pro - this is something I do in my spare time as a hobby just for myself and my band, so a lot of this is experimentation and just trying to learn new things).

As I see it, I could buy an audio interface that gives me enough ins and outs to do this, and then I could run all the outputs to a purely analogue mixing console to mix down on that... but then I have no recall of my desk settings, or ability to record fader changes mid-song.

The other approach is to scrap the idea of mixing down outboard, and have a MIDI/USB control surface to control Reason, and just let Reason do the final mix. This is OK, but doesn't give me the option to mix down outboard or allow me to patch in external equipment during the mixdown.

So, what I'd really like is a mixing console with motorised faders that links to Reason's mixer controls, but yet also has ins and outs for every fader, and handles the mix on the console itself. I've been searching and searching, but I can't seem to find what I'm looking for. Does such a thing exist?

Or, am I going totally down the wrong road and there's another way I can do this? (maybe the right type of audio interface coupled with a MIDI control surface?).

Any help would be really appreciated. Usually I can find what I'm looking for, but I'm totally stumped this time.

Chris.

[selig]

I would suggest starting by looking at mixer/interfaces with DAW control, including the Behringer X32 or Wing, and also PreSonus' StudioLive series (as some of the lower cost alternatives). These types of mixers give you versatility, allowing you to use the console in (at least) four main ways: as a huge USB interface for your computer/DAW, as a standalone mixer (the mixer can record/playback 32+64 tracks on it's own), as a giant fader bank/controller for Reason while mixing ITB, or as an external mixer with tracks coming from Reason. Plus, you can use your analog gear!

This is something I've been thinking about for a year now, ever since I got a Zoom LiveTrak L-20 for some live performance. Now that I'm setup back at home, I've found the Zoom to be very handy as an interface, allowing me direct access to all of my analog instruments. The L-20 gives me 16 mic/line inputs, two stereo line inputs (analog or USB), 6 stereo aux mixes, 2 built in FX/busses, and a full recorder for individual tracks and/or the stereo mix (has come in handy to be able to record the mix at the touch of a button, for those random ideas that happen when the DAW isn't booted).

More recently I'm looking to add moving faders, and thinking that for not much more $ I can get a USB mixer, which gives me 24-32 motorized faders, a huge number of audio inputs to Reason, additional FX and more. I'm already sold on the workflow of my L-20, now I just need to move up a level or two so as to add moving faders etc.

[Andy]

1. I'd like to use actual physical faders/controls to speed up my mastering and recording a bit.

I agree with Selig suggestions. Based on what you are trying to do a digital mixer is the way to go. They offer a lot of flexibility and are an incredible value for money due to how much ground they cover. You get total recall of your mix settings as you would ITB, audio interface, motorized faders and even onboard recording of audio without the need for a computer. I am actually surprised most studios are not using them. I have the Midas M32 which allows me a variety of onboard fx, faders and a massive 32 in/out audio interface.

2. I'd like to be able to patch in analog hardware to my effects chain relatively easily (eg, run all my outs pre-mix via a patchbay and then plug things in as and when I want).

I am not aware of any digital mixer that has inserts on every channel for your outboard gear. However something like the x32 does have 6 Aux I/O that you can use as inserts on individual channels and subgroups. In my case I have three patch bays connected with various hardware synths, drum machines and fx. I will be adding an analog EQ, analog tape simulator, Elektron Analog Heat etc for the mixbus shortly. All which will be connected to the patchbay as well. Plus you can also do slits on the console for parallel processing etc. The only thing with the M32/x32 is that you only get 8 faders to control Reason in MCU remote mode which in itself is poorly implemented in Reason. The Behringer Wing seems even more powerful only difference is that you don't get enough I/O to begin with. 8 pres but you can use the AUX to give you an additional 8. But they have various I/O boxes for more inputs.

3. I want to see if I can achieve a better sound quality/improve my production skills by trying this approach. (note, I'm not a pro - this is something I do in my spare time as a hobby just for myself and my band, so a lot of this is experimentation and just trying to learn new things).

I can't say sound quality will improve just because of a mixer or analog gear as that still takes skill and practice. But trust me, it's a lot of fun touching faders, twisting knobs, patching cables etc.

[dmcghee]

I am also using the Behringer X32 with outboard effects, keyboards, MPC X and MPC 60MKll with a patchbay. As far as MIDI on the X32 it is a great control surface for Reason you can control as many channels that’s in your project.The X32 has banks in groups of 8, you can control the panning and the transport for Reason. With the USB card you can track 32 audio tracks into Reason in one past. The X32 is a great audio interface as well.

If you want to mix out of the box on the X32, the effects are very good plus you can record a two track mix on the internal USB drive. You save presets of your mix internally and also to a thumb drive.

[xboix]

For me one of the best things about modern DAWs is that I can get away from a real mixer and outboard racks! Mine took up far too much room and the cabling was very time consuming, especially when I got a slightly duff connection somewhere.

These days I get stuff into software-land as soon as possible. I occasionally mic up a guitar cab but that's about it. Everything else is DI'd and does not meet the real world again until a track is finished.

[chrisb81]

Thanks everyone for the replies, this is really helpful.

I would suggest starting by looking at mixer/interfaces with DAW control, including the Behringer X32 or Wing, and also PreSonus' StudioLive series (as some of the lower cost alternatives). These types of mixers give you versatility, allowing you to use the console in (at least) four main ways: as a huge USB interface for your computer/DAW, as a standalone mixer (the mixer can record/playback 32+64 tracks on it's own), as a giant fader bank/controller for Reason while mixing ITB, or as an external mixer with tracks coming from Reason. Plus, you can use your analog gear!

These look brilliant! The PreSonus StudioLive 32 looks pretty good, a bit out of my price range but I would consider waiting and saving up if it's something that would have a lot of longevity. The same goes for the X32 - looks really good, and pretty much what I'm looking for. I'm building a studio in my basement so it's something that will be permanently connected up, and I love the idea of being able to patch stuff in as and when I need it - plus having the versatility to work in different ways and maybe without even needing the DAW at all.

The 8 tracks thing on the X32 is confusing me a bit...

I am also using the Behringer X32 with outboard effects, keyboards, MPC X and MPC 60MKll with a patchbay. As far as MIDI on the X32 it is a great control surface for Reason you can control as many channels that’s in your project.The X32 has banks in groups of 8, you can control the panning and the transport for Reason. With the USB card you can track 32 audio tracks into Reason in one past. The X32 is a great audio interface as well.

In my case I have three patch bays connected with various hardware synths, drum machines and fx. I will be adding an analog EQ, analog tape simulator, Elektron Analog Heat etc for the mixbus shortly. All which will be connected to the patchbay as well. Plus you can also do slits on the console for parallel processing etc. The only thing with the M32/x32 is that you only get 8 faders to control Reason in MCU remote mode which in itself is poorly implemented in Reason. The Behringer Wing seems even more powerful only difference is that you don't get enough I/O to begin with. 8 pres but you can use the AUX to give you an additional 8. But they have various I/O boxes for more inputs.

So, does the X32 only control 8 channels at a time, and you need to switch banks to control more?

Is there any value in getting the X32 Rack-mount version, and then getting a more dedicated control surface for Reason? Would that work?

[selig]

For me one of the best things about modern DAWs is that I can get away from a real mixer and outboard racks! Mine took up far too much room and the cabling was very time consuming, especially when I got a slightly duff connection somewhere.

These days I get stuff into software-land as soon as possible. I occasionally mic up a guitar cab but that's about it. Everything else is DI'd and does not meet the real world again until a track is finished.

The beauty of these digital mixers is they DO get stuff into software-land - immediately. No outboard racks (unless you want them), small footprint 8-32 faders is standard), really simple cabling.

For folks who need 8+ analog inputs and want to mix with hardware faders, it's a valid path while still avoiding the pitfalls of the old analog studios (of which I am all too well aware). Not for everyone, but a definite consideration for many IMO.

[selig]

Is there any value in getting the X32 Rack-mount version, and then getting a more dedicated control surface for Reason? Would that work?

I'm sure it would work, but I don't know if there are any advantages to this approach (unless you already have a controller, or have your eye on one you love).

That being said, there really aren't any mix controllers that integrate well with Reason, and as these things get cheeper it gets stranger that Reason isn't well supported by many/most of them.

[chrisb81]

I'm sure it would work, but I don't know if there are any advantages to this approach (unless you already have a controller, or have your eye on one you love).

That being said, there really aren't any mix controllers that integrate well with Reason, and as these things get cheeper it gets stranger that Reason isn't well supported by many/most of them.

I suppose I was thinking two things - one is that I could immediately buy the X32 Rack to start integrating my cabling/etc, and worry about the controller later, and secondly, if there is a controller out there that gives me better options than the X32 does by standard. Plus, I do quite like rack gear

But, I wouldn't want to lose out on functionality that I'd otherwise get - if the standard X32 already fits the bill, then I should probably just wait and buy that instead.

I'll do some more research, but this definitely seems to be the way to go, thanks

[Andy]

Thanks everyone for the replies, this is really helpful.

I would suggest starting by looking at mixer/interfaces with DAW control, including the Behringer X32 or Wing, and also PreSonus' StudioLive series (as some of the lower cost alternatives). These types of mixers give you versatility, allowing you to use the console in (at least) four main ways: as a huge USB interface for your computer/DAW, as a standalone mixer (the mixer can record/playback 32+64 tracks on it's own), as a giant fader bank/controller for Reason while mixing ITB, or as an external mixer with tracks coming from Reason. Plus, you can use your analog gear!

These look brilliant! The PreSonus StudioLive 32 looks pretty good, a bit out of my price range but I would consider waiting and saving up if it's something that would have a lot of longevity. The same goes for the X32 - looks really good, and pretty much what I'm looking for. I'm building a studio in my basement so it's something that will be permanently connected up, and I love the idea of being able to patch stuff in as and when I need it - plus having the versatility to work in different ways and maybe without even needing the DAW at all.

The 8 tracks thing on the X32 is confusing me a bit...

I am also using the Behringer X32 with outboard effects, keyboards, MPC X and MPC 60MKll with a patchbay. As far as MIDI on the X32 it is a great control surface for Reason you can control as many channels that’s in your project.The X32 has banks in groups of 8, you can control the panning and the transport for Reason. With the USB card you can track 32 audio tracks into Reason in one past. The X32 is a great audio interface as well.

In my case I have three patch bays connected with various hardware synths, drum machines and fx. I will be adding an analog EQ, analog tape simulator, Elektron Analog Heat etc for the mixbus shortly. All which will be connected to the patchbay as well. Plus you can also do slits on the console for parallel processing etc. The only thing with the M32/x32 is that you only get 8 faders to control Reason in MCU remote mode which in itself is poorly implemented in Reason. The Behringer Wing seems even more powerful only difference is that you don't get enough I/O to begin with. 8 pres but you can use the AUX to give you an additional 8. But they have various I/O boxes for more inputs.

So, does the X32 only control 8 channels at a time, and you need to switch banks to control more?

Is there any value in getting the X32 Rack-mount version, and then getting a more dedicated control surface for Reason? Would that work?

Yes 8 channels at a time on the output faders of the board when "DAW Remote" is activated. To make things clear. If you are routing audio directly from Reason to inputs on the x32 you have 32 faders in banks of 16. If you want to control the Reason SSL you have banks or 8 via MCU/HUI which is poorly implemented in Reason.

With the X32 rack mount it comes down to how many inputs you need. It has 16 mix pres plus the 6 aux that you can also use as inputs, if you have outboard you may prefer to use the aux i/o for others things duties such as inserts. If your studio grows you may need to buy more I/O depending on your workflow. I personally would not go the route of x32 rack only to possibly spend more on an S16 later for 16 more inputs which basically already put you at $2000 if you buy new and then having to spend money on a separate controller when you can just buy the x32 mixer with all the inputs and and faders already available. But my needs, preferences etc are different than yours so please keep that in mind.

As far as I am concerned the best controller for Reason is the RSTouch app. If you can live without real faders have an iPad and is OK with mixing ITB then maybe X32 Rack will be fine. It's all comes down to how you prefer to do things.

[mcatalao]

chrisb81:

IMHO, faders don't speed up mastering. They do speed up mixing, specially balancing a mix whether before or after you add inserts to your channels. Knobs on the other hand, particularly infinite clickable knobs, are the most efficient controller devices for reason, because most devices in reason have knobs. Knobs are the reason why i use a BCR2000 after almost 15 years from their initial release.

I think from what others said, if i was in your shoes, i'd look at the Behringer Wing, wich not only seems quite adequate for all the things you need, as it is quite beautiful. I'd like to see a black version though!

Anyway, as for chaining stuff out, i'd stick away from it. TBH, i have a bunch of outboard comps and reverbs, a nice TLAudio pre with processing (comp+eq+limiter) and I don't remember the last time i took a sound from the DAW to any of these. I do occasionally compress the source or eq a bit (but mostly because i get a little drive from this), but this is optional (and risky) and doesn't add more conversion steps.

That being said, you either have very ethereal stuff, or the current state of plugins (may them be VST's or Re's or even reason stock devices) give you amazing results that could be compromised by shoddy conversion. To route to analogue you multiply the amount of conversions (you probably already converted Analogue to Digital when first recorded your source, then you'll bring it out again to be processed by an analogue chain, and then you have to put it on the daw again for mix down, and further processing).If you really WANT to do it, the Behringer Wing or the Presonus seem perfectly usable for that.

[Lov2sing]

Signature 12 / 12 MTK Signature 16 Signature 22 / 22 MTK
Channels 10 12 16 22
Soundcraft® Ghost Preamps 6 8 12 16
Soundcraft® Sapphyre EQ 3-band (1 band of swept mids) 3-band (1 band of swept mids) 4-band (2 bands of swept mids) 4-band (2 bands of swept mids)
dbx® Limiters on inputs 2 2 4 8
Lexicon® Effects Single Engine Single Engine Single Engine Dual Engine
USB Interface 2-in/2-out 2-in/2-out (14-in/12-out on 12 MTK) 2-in/2-out 2-in/2-out (24-in/22-out on 22 MTK)
Auxes 3 3 4 5
Subgroups 0 2 mono/1 stereo 4 mono/2 stereo 4 mono/2 stereo
Faders 60mm 60mm 100mm 100mm

[Goriila Texas]

Man it's hard to believe someone with your experience doesn't get frustrated with Reason. Does Reason even have a way to send audio out and Return and record it's been a while since I've used Reason? You could really benefit from Studio One it will set you free. Pipeline is a native plugin that let's you send audio out to hard and back in with sample accuracy. Basically using your hardware like a plugin. Easy to use DAW with enough to keep even brightest minds intrigued. You would enjoy using splitters function,multi-instruments and since you are half producer/engineer you have song mode for writing and project mode for mastering. You can even load Reason in a multi instrument for even more complex routing.

I would suggest starting by looking at mixer/interfaces with DAW control, including the Behringer X32 or Wing, and also PreSonus' StudioLive series (as some of the lower cost alternatives). These types of mixers give you versatility, allowing you to use the console in (at least) four main ways: as a huge USB interface for your computer/DAW, as a standalone mixer (the mixer can record/playback 32+64 tracks on it's own), as a giant fader bank/controller for Reason while mixing ITB, or as an external mixer with tracks coming from Reason. Plus, you can use your analog gear!

This is something I've been thinking about for a year now, ever since I got a Zoom LiveTrak L-20 for some live performance. Now that I'm setup back at home, I've found the Zoom to be very handy as an interface, allowing me direct access to all of my analog instruments. The L-20 gives me 16 mic/line inputs, two stereo line inputs (analog or USB), 6 stereo aux mixes, 2 built in FX/busses, and a full recorder for individual tracks and/or the stereo mix (has come in handy to be able to record the mix at the touch of a button, for those random ideas that happen when the DAW isn't booted).

More recently I'm looking to add moving faders, and thinking that for not much more $ I can get a USB mixer, which gives me 24-32 motorized faders, a huge number of audio inputs to Reason, additional FX and more. I'm already sold on the workflow of my L-20, now I just need to move up a level or two so as to add moving faders etc.

[tt_lab]

I use a zed r16 from A&H and am very pleased with it. It's an analog console but with firewire integration and some midi funcionalities in the faders. no motorized faders, but I don't miss them that much.

[Tomohiro Kikuti]

iCON products including Platform M+ support Reason.
I have never used it. but the user said the motor sound was a bit noisy.

[selig]

Signature 12 / 12 MTK Signature 16 Signature 22 / 22 MTK
Channels 10 12 16 22
Soundcraft® Ghost Preamps 6 8 12 16
Soundcraft® Sapphyre EQ 3-band (1 band of swept mids) 3-band (1 band of swept mids) 4-band (2 bands of swept mids) 4-band (2 bands of swept mids)
dbx® Limiters on inputs 2 2 4 8
Lexicon® Effects Single Engine Single Engine Single Engine Dual Engine
USB Interface 2-in/2-out 2-in/2-out (14-in/12-out on 12 MTK) 2-in/2-out 2-in/2-out (24-in/22-out on 22 MTK)
Auxes 3 3 4 5
Subgroups 0 2 mono/1 stereo 4 mono/2 stereo 4 mono/2 stereo
Faders 60mm 60mm 100mm 100mm

Unfortunately that doesn't address request #1, fader control of Reason (no motorized faders).

[selig]

Man it's hard to believe someone with your experience doesn't get frustrated with Reason. Does Reason even have a way to send audio out and Return and record it's been a while since I've used Reason? You could really benefit from Studio One it will set you free. Pipeline is a native plugin that let's you send audio out to hard and back in with sample accuracy. Basically using your hardware like a plugin. Easy to use DAW with enough to keep even brightest minds intrigued. You would enjoy using splitters function,multi-instruments and since you are half producer/engineer you have song mode for writing and project mode for mastering. You can even load Reason in a multi instrument for even more complex routing.

I do get frustrated with Reason. I also get frustrated with Logic, Pro Tools, and every other DAW I've tried over the years. While there is no perfect DAW, I'm always open to other options.

As for sending audio out and back, I haven't needed to do that for many years now. The only times I've done that in the past I record it to a new track (so I can still have easy total recall of mixes). And in the few cases I've needed to do that it's easy to align the audio quickly by hand.
If I was doing that all the time I'd certainly appreciate a feature as you have described!

[demt]

speciffically for live occasions https://d1aeri3ty3izns.cloudfront.net/m ... 221533.pdf
erm ive got a few offboard synths that need a little sparkle in the mixer to get a great sound i think this piece of kit is essential for that live video ive wanted to make 120 adjustable parameters is diff to sniff at though seems theres a lot to learn to get the best out of it
behringer dj ddm 4000

the link doesnt seem to work erm see the other post in this forum called live mixer where it works
https://d1aeri3ty3izns.cloudfront.net/m ... 221533.pdf

[Rocker]

For years I have been using an old AKAI DPS24 digital multitracker to record band sessions for my radio show. It's creaky now, but has motorized faders and records 24bit WAV to onboard hard drive. Downside is that it takes hours to transfer the multitrack WAVs to my computer via USB1. I do all my mixing in Reason.

Am looking to replace it, and the Behringer X32 looks ideal. However I can't get my head around how the USB multitrack connection to Reason actually works - If I record say 10 tracks as a backing track, I then need to overdub vocals onto a mix of this backing track - can I easily set this mix up on the desk, or do i have to set it up in Reason?

Rocker, Bristol UK