The only way to truly hear the same

Want to talk about music hardware or software that doesn't include Reason?
RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

05 May 2018

This again...

Image

I know! xD

The following doesn't work, like that - at least that's clear now:

EDIT: And while it is possible to hear someone else's hearing curve, for things to sound the same as for the other person, both of you need truly flat response.

Nobody liked the idea of equalizing your system until you hear every frequency equally loud (using sine waves for example). It turned out that it wouldn't work with current standards and that with live sounds, it wouldn't be efficient to work with.

However, we forget one important thing: while a flat recording and a flat reproduction (if it existed) may sound the same, every single shaping and change to the sound will leave the mark of the engineer's hearing on it (which is affected by everything physical, as well as how their brain reproduces sound). Be it processing, or mixing for example. (Unless they can mimic reality flawlessly.)

Let's not forget, there's no such thing like perfectly flat, and everyone will hear everything differently in the end. Plus, why should our brain adjust to a technically okay sound? It's a much different experience if we instantly hear an excellent sound.

Now, if we equalize our system so that every frequency sounds evenly loud, then of course it won't be compatible with current standards. However, it certainly makes it possible to hear exactly the same for everyone in their hearing range (if you hear nothing above a certain frequency, that obviously won't matter to you).
It's a thing that people say, we're supposed do hear frequencies differently - but when it comes to purely electronic sound, does it still matter what we're supposed to hear? (Not really.) Those are fictional sounds.
The biggest benefit is that everyone can decode the sound you will create this way - all they need is to even frequencies out with an equalizer. They could have really good sound, not just something that professionals have.
Once you got that, working with live sounds will of course become a lot of work, since you would need to make a lot of adjustments. - But with electronic sounds, created from scratch, you can quickly shape everything to your liking on the go.
So, why not?
In the end, you can listen to the sound again without equalization on your flat system, and equalize everything so it sounds good to your ears, and will translate 'acceptably' to other systems, and to consumers.
Meanwhile if created with the evened frequencies, and listened back with evened frequencies, it will translate perfectly to every individual's, individually equalized system.

The point of this is the easiness and flexibility of it, so everyone truly can hear what the engineers intended - even on cheap systems, as long as they have an EQ and can reproduce frequencies properly.

This could work the other way around, too. If one has the perfect studio and perfect sound, they could make an "encoding" for even frequency equalization. In the end, everyone could hear what you heard.
Last edited by RobC on 07 May 2018, edited 2 times in total.

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normen
Posts: 3431
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

05 May 2018

RobC wrote:
05 May 2018
an excellent sound
:lol:

You're not considering that playing electric signals through moving membranes is per se an artificial thing. So you always have to work with intention and opinion. The thing a flat system in a flat room will give you is the best impression of the intention of the creators of the music you supposedly like. If that sound is "excellent" or not is completely and 100% within the realm of the opinion of the listener.

Like you might pull up the red on your TV all the way to 100% and like it better but you won't see what the director saw when he did the final cut.

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

05 May 2018

normen wrote:
05 May 2018
RobC wrote:
05 May 2018
an excellent sound
:lol:

You're not considering that playing electric signals through moving membranes is per se an artificial thing. So you always have to work with intention and opinion. The thing a flat system in a flat room will give you is the best impression of the intention of the creators of the music you supposedly like. If that sound is "excellent" or not is completely and 100% within the realm of the opinion of the listener.
How many consumers have a flat system? I'd say less than 1%. How about professionals?

What about the autodidacts who are screwed and have to work with what they got?
With this method at least a sound that can be decoded, can be created by everyone that would definitely translate much better than how the average people have to work at the moment. The percentage that has access to everything flat, is very low. Quite selfish of engineers to expect anyone to get/have a treated system.

In my eyes, the listener comes first. This would be a bridge to get at least a taste of the intended sound. Not to mention, even cheap systems can be far more accurately equalized this way ~ even if it has that encoding-decoding procedure.

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normen
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05 May 2018

Nobody expects anything from you but what are engineers supposed to do? If they make it sound good on your system it will sound bad on other systems. So they aim for the elusive "ideal system" because that is what makes most sense. I mean you don't get agitated about musicians using chords you can't identify either do you? :)

As said, you're free to pull up the red on your TV all the way or you might be forced to use a TV that has a blue tint or you might even be color blind to green colors - all that shouldn't influence how the TV shows are produced, should it? :)

Edit: And btw, engineers don't expect the listeners to have systems like they do. Most engineers I know make sure there isn't much going on below 30Hz although their systems go down to 20 or even 16 Hz.

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

05 May 2018

normen wrote:
05 May 2018
Nobody expects anything from you but what are engineers supposed to do? If they make it sound good on your system it will sound bad on other systems. So they aim for the elusive "ideal system" because that is what makes most sense. I mean you don't get agitated about musicians using chords you can't identify either do you? :)

As said, you're free to pull up the red on your TV all the way or you might be forced to use a TV that has a blue tint or you might even be color blind to green colors - all that shouldn't influence how the TV shows are produced, should it? :)

Edit: And btw, engineers don't expect the listeners to have systems like they do. Most engineers I know make sure there isn't much going on below 30Hz although their systems go down to 20 or even 16 Hz.
Here's what would happen:

The listener would set up their system, so that they wouldn't hear one frequency louder than the other (with their own ears, on their own system). All clear, and 'decoded' ready to listen to the 'encoded' song.

Your song is finished, you're satisfied with sound. Now you take an equalizer and set up your system, according to your hearing, so you don't hear one frequency louder than the other either. You check your song, and obviously it would sound off. All you would do, would be bypassing the equalizer, check your song with your intended sound, and then reactivate the equalizer (switching back and forth), while you set up and tweak another equalizer, until it sounds the same with the 'evenly loud frequency equalization' as your intended sound on your flat system. When done, you bypass the 'evenly loud frequency equalization', and leave the second one on, which you adjusted to the intended sound. The result is an encoded equalization.

You send that to the listener. They have their 'evenly loud frequency equalization' on (which decodes your encoded equalization), and what's the result? They hear your intended sound.

Come on, now would this NOT work?

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4filegate
Posts: 922
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05 May 2018

If we accept the claim; "Nobody in their right minds likes the sound of the flat systems for enjoyable listening. They do not do that very well."

I keep thinking about it, understanding the basics of light, because physics cannot be changed.

Why fishermen wear polarized sunglasses? With Polarized Sunglasses the water is so clear, that we could see the ground.

For all the benefits we receive from the sun, its light can pose serious vision problems. Sunlight reflecting off of smooth water, snow or flat roads can create glare which is not only annoying, but can often be dangerous. Blinding sun glare can cause accidents, snow blindness and can even sunburn your eyes. Long term exposure to sun glare has been known to cause cataracts. Polarized lenses can shield you against the dangers of intense glare. A virtually invisible filter can be built into lenses to eliminate the amount of reflecting light that enters the eye. Polarized lenses not only reduce glare, they make images appear sharper and clearer, increasing visual clarity and comfort (flat systems do that very well). Most polarized sunglasses provide UV protection which is important to maintaining healthy eye sight. Just as we put on sunscreen to protect our skin, it’s critical that we protect our eyes from UV rays too.

RobC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2018

05 May 2018

"Like you might pull up the red on your TV all the way to 100% and like it better but you won't see what the director saw when he did the final cut."

I missed that one. The example is exactly something I'm not talking about at all, here.

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

05 May 2018

4filegate wrote:
05 May 2018
If we accept the claim; "Nobody in their right minds likes the sound of the flat systems for enjoyable listening. They do not do that very well."

I keep thinking about it, understanding the basics of light, because physics cannot be changed.

Why fishermen wear polarized sunglasses? With Polarized Sunglasses the water is so clear, that we could see the ground.

For all the benefits we receive from the sun, its light can pose serious vision problems. Sunlight reflecting off of smooth water, snow or flat roads can create glare which is not only annoying, but can often be dangerous. Blinding sun glare can cause accidents, snow blindness and can even sunburn your eyes. Long term exposure to sun glare has been known to cause cataracts. Polarized lenses can shield you against the dangers of intense glare. A virtually invisible filter can be built into lenses to eliminate the amount of reflecting light that enters the eye. Polarized lenses not only reduce glare, they make images appear sharper and clearer, increasing visual clarity and comfort (flat systems do that very well). Most polarized sunglasses provide UV protection which is important to maintaining healthy eye sight. Just as we put on sunscreen to protect our skin, it’s critical that we protect our eyes from UV rays too.
Aren't flat systems supposed to technically accurately reproduce sound? Then the sound guy adds the flavor.

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normen
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Joined: 16 Jan 2015

06 May 2018

RobC wrote:
05 May 2018
"Like you might pull up the red on your TV all the way to 100% and like it better but you won't see what the director saw when he did the final cut."

I missed that one. The example is exactly something I'm not talking about at all, here.
This is exactly what you're talking about, sorry. If you don't intend to then you have to use completely different words.

You're saying that somebody who doesn't see green very well should pull up green on his TV. But you're missing the fact that his whole world has less green and if he did that his TV would have MORE green than he usually sees (which is LESS green than everybody else).

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normen
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Joined: 16 Jan 2015

06 May 2018

Btw, this is what you would have to do to achieve what you want:
1) Get a 100% flat system (!)
2) Do your sine test with a 31-band EQ and tune it so you hear every sine at the same volume on that system. (This is your personal Fletcher-Munson curve)
3) Use a sine THROUGH that curve to test your OTHER headphones etc. the same way. THIS WAY you will get a "flat" response on your new headphones (or at least as flat as the system in 1 was and you can perceive differences)

But it simply doesn't make sense, engineers have thought about things like this before RobC ;) And the frequency response is only a very small part of the technical specs / quality of a speaker or headphone.

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4filegate
Posts: 922
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06 May 2018

+1▲

@normen said; "So you always have to work with intention and opinion". I've seen welding masks. It was dark there.

Electromagnetic spectrum with light highlighted
Image

Visible wavelengths pass through the "optical window", the region of the electromagnetic spectrum that allows wavelengths to pass largely unattenuated through the Earth's atmosphere. An example of this phenomenon is that clean air scatters blue light more than red wavelengths, and so the midday sky appears blue. The optical window is also referred to as the "visible window" because it overlaps the human visible response spectrum. The near infrared (NIR) window lies just out of the human vision, as well as the Medium Wavelength IR (MWIR) window, and the Long Wavelength or Far Infrared (LWIR or FIR) window, although other animals may experience them.

Visible light observeable from Earth with some atmospheric distortion.
Image
RobC wrote:
05 May 2018
Aren't flat systems supposed to technically accurately reproduce sound? Then the sound guy adds the flavor.

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Ahornberg
Posts: 1904
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Location: Vienna, Austria
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06 May 2018

My 2 cents:

A master on a cheap violin plays 1000 times better than a beginner on a Stradivari.

If you can make your music sound good on a cell phone or on crappy PC speakers or even in a car ...
and if you can make it sound good in a club or on HiFi systems ...

Composing and Songwriting is an art.
Arranging is an art.
Recording, mixing and mastering is an art.
And every art needs practicing.

Quality equipment is nessesary but don't overestimate it.

Its not about that other people hear the same technically,
it's about communicating the vibe.

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4filegate
Posts: 922
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

06 May 2018

... my efforts are simply due to madness.

what is good vision?

I'm busy moving! I got found an apartment with lake view and sea air. In near future, the channel by 4filegate AVM, come from "Ancien hôtel Bellevue" on Lake Thun.

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O1B
Posts: 2037
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

06 May 2018

Congrats on your new Lake Thun digs... that. sounds. very. Cool.


I went into a restaurant in Basel. The waiter gave me one of the best gift anyone could ever have ever given me. The Three most important words/expressions/classifications in any foreign situation.

- Beef
- Chicken
- or, Fish.

True story.
4filegate wrote:
06 May 2018
... my efforts are simply due to madness.

what is good vision?

I'm busy moving! I got found an apartment with lake view and sea air. In near future, the channel by 4filegate AVM, come from "Ancien hôtel Bellevue" on Lake Thun.

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normen
Posts: 3431
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

06 May 2018

4filegate wrote:
06 May 2018
... my efforts are simply due to madness.

what is good vision?

I'm busy moving! I got found an apartment with lake view and sea air. In near future, the channel by 4filegate AVM, come from "Ancien hôtel Bellevue" on Lake Thun.
Be sure to not fall for cheap windows! Make a test where you put a RGB light behind the window and tune it so that every color seems the same brightness! ;)

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

06 May 2018

normen wrote:
06 May 2018
Btw, this is what you would have to do to achieve what you want:
1) Get a 100% flat system (!)
2) Do your sine test with a 31-band EQ and tune it so you hear every sine at the same volume on that system. (This is your personal Fletcher-Munson curve)
3) Use a sine THROUGH that curve to test your OTHER headphones etc. the same way. THIS WAY you will get a "flat" response on your new headphones (or at least as flat as the system in 1 was and you can perceive differences)

But it simply doesn't make sense, engineers have thought about things like this before RobC ;) And the frequency response is only a very small part of the technical specs / quality of a speaker or headphone.
Okay, since everyone has a different hearing curve there's no 1 reference sound that would fit all.
But to hear what 1 specific person hears, how about they eq sine waves, so we have a sample of their hearing curve, then we equalize that sample to our hearing, and then listen to their work with our correction EQ on? Would that work?

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

06 May 2018

Ahornberg wrote:
06 May 2018
My 2 cents:

A master on a cheap violin plays 1000 times better than a beginner on a Stradivari.

If you can make your music sound good on a cell phone or on crappy PC speakers or even in a car ...
and if you can make it sound good in a club or on HiFi systems ...

Composing and Songwriting is an art.
Arranging is an art.
Recording, mixing and mastering is an art.
And every art needs practicing.

Quality equipment is nessesary but don't overestimate it.

Its not about that other people hear the same technically,
it's about communicating the vibe.
I think the true artists are the creators - in a nutshell.

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normen
Posts: 3431
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

06 May 2018

RobC wrote:
06 May 2018
Okay, since everyone has a different hearing curve there's no 1 reference sound that would fit all.
But to hear what 1 specific person hears, how about they eq sine waves, so we have a sample of their hearing curve, then we equalize that sample to our hearing, and then listen to their work with our correction EQ on? Would that work?
Wrong. Step 1 is exactly there to get your own hearing into the equation. And yes, there is 99% flat systems to find out how your personal F-M curve looks. This IS what you are asking for, you first "measure" your own ear and THEN test the speaker, subtracting your own ears curve.

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

06 May 2018

normen wrote:
06 May 2018
RobC wrote:
06 May 2018
Okay, since everyone has a different hearing curve there's no 1 reference sound that would fit all.
But to hear what 1 specific person hears, how about they eq sine waves, so we have a sample of their hearing curve, then we equalize that sample to our hearing, and then listen to their work with our correction EQ on? Would that work?
Wrong. Step 1 is exactly there to get your own hearing into the equation. And yes, there is 100% flat systems to find out how your personal F-M curve looks. This IS what you are asking for, you first "measure" your own ear and THEN test the speaker, subtracting your own ears curve.
I understand that gives us a flat response, I just meant that my earlier encoding-decoding method wouldn't work that simply.

Now, once we have a flat system there still are hearing differences: the other person might take several sine waves, and EQ them, so they sound even. Now, personal FM curves likely will differ, so we can hear what they EQ'd, won't sound 100% equally loud to us, personally. So we make adjustments, then we hear it equally loud, too, aka. the same. This is what my question was, if we adjust to how they equalized sine waves, we'll most likely hear the same. ...or is that impossible, too?

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normen
Posts: 3431
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

06 May 2018

RobC wrote:
06 May 2018
I understand that gives us a flat response, I just meant that my earlier encoding-decoding method wouldn't work that simply.

Now, once we have a flat system there still are hearing differences: the other person might take several sine waves, and EQ them, so they sound even. Now, personal FM curves likely will differ, so we can hear what they EQ'd, won't sound 100% equally loud to us, personally. So we make adjustments, then we hear it equally loud, too, aka. the same. This is what my question was, if we adjust to how they equalized sine waves, we'll most likely hear the same. ...or is that impossible, too?
From that point on it doesn't matter anymore, then it's preference. The listener will buy that music again if the musicians and engineers tastes overlap with his own.

I know you've heard this before but you're overthinking things ;) If you and me stand in front of a singer then you will hear some frequencies louder than me but we both would recognize that singer later in a recording that isn't equalized, it would sound pretty much like the real guy standing in front of us. If you were to change that EQ in the recording according to your ear then it wouldn't sound the same to you or me anymore, it would be something different.

And it doesn't matter if you only listen to electronic music, NO CHANGE is what sounds normal - isn't that obvious?

avasopht
Competition Winner
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Joined: 16 Jan 2015

06 May 2018

It sounds like you're trying to solve a problem that isn't there.

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

07 May 2018

normen wrote:
06 May 2018
RobC wrote:
06 May 2018
I understand that gives us a flat response, I just meant that my earlier encoding-decoding method wouldn't work that simply.

Now, once we have a flat system there still are hearing differences: the other person might take several sine waves, and EQ them, so they sound even. Now, personal FM curves likely will differ, so we can hear what they EQ'd, won't sound 100% equally loud to us, personally. So we make adjustments, then we hear it equally loud, too, aka. the same. This is what my question was, if we adjust to how they equalized sine waves, we'll most likely hear the same. ...or is that impossible, too?
From that point on it doesn't matter anymore, then it's preference. The listener will buy that music again if the musicians and engineers tastes overlap with his own.

I know you've heard this before but you're overthinking things ;) If you and me stand in front of a singer then you will hear some frequencies louder than me but we both would recognize that singer later in a recording that isn't equalized, it would sound pretty much like the real guy standing in front of us. If you were to change that EQ in the recording according to your ear then it wouldn't sound the same to you or me anymore, it would be something different.

And it doesn't matter if you only listen to electronic music, NO CHANGE is what sounds normal - isn't that obvious?
What if two parties don't have properly set up flat systems? If they send each-other a set of sine waves and say "on my system, this is how it sounds EQ'd flat, to me" ~ well, surely if they adjust their own system, then they add both the other one's system's problematic balancing, and their unique hearing curve to it, but it's still closer to flat, than no setting at all.

I mean, there must be a way to make music sound closer to flat for consumers, too. All the systems out there color the sound real bad. Or doesn't that matter, and not worth caring about? Isn't it worth it for a sound guy to give their listener's (with poor system, but EQ available) a set of sine waves, what's supposed to sound evenly loud?

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

07 May 2018

avasopht wrote:
06 May 2018
It sounds like you're trying to solve a problem that isn't there.
Poorly set up systems are a thing.

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normen
Posts: 3431
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

07 May 2018

RobC wrote:
07 May 2018
What if two parties don't have properly set up flat systems? If they send each-other a set of sine waves and say "on my system, this is how it sounds EQ'd flat, to me" ~ well, surely if they adjust their own system, then they add both the other one's system's problematic balancing, and their unique hearing curve to it, but it's still closer to flat, than no setting at all.

I mean, there must be a way to make music sound closer to flat for consumers, too. All the systems out there color the sound real bad. Or doesn't that matter, and not worth caring about? Isn't it worth it for a sound guy to give their listener's (with poor system, but EQ available) a set of sine waves, what's supposed to sound evenly loud?
There is no "flat to me" there is only flat. Again, why would you change a color by default? Why would you pull down red on every image you import? Why would you add salt to every meal you take? To make it look more like cats see it? To make it taste more like others taste?

avasopht
Competition Winner
Posts: 3931
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07 May 2018

RobC wrote:
07 May 2018
Poorly set up systems are a thing.
We all know this.

In short, there is absolutely nothing you can do to engineer your recording to account for various poorly set up systems. The most that can be done on a per consumer basis is the Arc Room Correction (apparently, not tried it myself to confirm).

The only real way is for the consumers to buy speakers that don't distort (colour sound) so easily in well treated rooms. You can't account for that by engineering a recording in any way, shape, or form.

You also can't "give a flat sound." If you're recording a piano, it's a piano. Only white noise and silence are flat in their entirety. Unless you mean flat relative to the recording. But if so, you're effectly saying no EQ and filtering, which puts you at a bit of a mixing disadvantage.

There is no conceivable way to make all listening environments the same. You're chasing a fool's errand if you're hoping to achieve this.

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