What headphones to get

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Marco Raaphorst
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20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
19 Apr 2018


That track sound totally undynamic and dull to me. I would never use this for reference.
What's dull about that snippet of music?
Everything. The music the non dynamic sound. The kind of sounds.

If that’s your referen... good luck! *evil grin*

RobC
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20 Apr 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018


What's dull about that snippet of music?
Everything. The music the non dynamic sound. The kind of sounds.

If that’s your referen... good luck! *evil grin*
That's okay, because the snippet was just an equalization project where point was that when listened with a calibrated system with the common to- sine wave tone -calibration method, there was no notch sound, no boosts, whatsoever. I love the sound of a calibrated frequency spectrum.

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aeox
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20 Apr 2018

$55,000 headphones, anyone? bueller.. bueller.. bueller...
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RobC
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20 Apr 2018

aeox wrote:
20 Apr 2018
$55,000 headphones, anyone? bueller.. bueller.. bueller...
Image
Minimum wage in my country is $ 2 per hour - just to give an idea, lol.

RobC
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20 Apr 2018

2017-10-19.png
2017-10-19.png (12.45 KiB) Viewed 2306 times
Thought I'd post it here, too - the inverted EQing curve of my headphones after adjustments made. See how by default it kills bass and pierces your eardrums with treble?

What is this even good for?! xD

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normen
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20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
2017-10-19.png

Thought I'd post it here, too - the inverted EQing curve of my headphones after adjustments made. See how by default it kills bass and pierces your eardrums with treble?

What is this even good for?! xD
What this shows is the relative curve of what the headphone does to what you perceive as normal. It doesn't have much to do with fletcher-munson but rather shows that either you have a preference for bass or that headphone is actually lacking bass. Either way it doesn't show anything objective.

RobC
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20 Apr 2018

normen wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
2017-10-19.png

Thought I'd post it here, too - the inverted EQing curve of my headphones after adjustments made. See how by default it kills bass and pierces your eardrums with treble?

What is this even good for?! xD
What this shows is the relative curve of what the headphone does to what you perceive as normal. It doesn't have much to do with fletcher-munson but rather shows that either you have a preference for bass or that headphone is actually lacking bass. Either way it doesn't show anything objective.
I took sine waves 30 Hz 60 Hz 120 Hz etc, and set their audio levels until one wasn't louder than the other. This was the result. It's not my preference - if you'd put these headphones on, I bet you'd say they don't sound very good. They indeed lack bass, and have way too much treble.

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normen
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20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
I took sine waves 30 Hz 60 Hz 120 Hz etc, and set their audio levels until one wasn't louder than the other. This was the result. It's not my preference - if you'd put these headphones on, I bet you'd say they don't sound very good. They indeed lack bass, and have way too much treble.
Ah, you took a measuring microphone - okay, yeah then you have something objective.

RobC
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20 Apr 2018

normen wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
I took sine waves 30 Hz 60 Hz 120 Hz etc, and set their audio levels until one wasn't louder than the other. This was the result. It's not my preference - if you'd put these headphones on, I bet you'd say they don't sound very good. They indeed lack bass, and have way too much treble.
Ah, you took a measuring microphone - okay, yeah then you have something objective.
No... how could a microphone determine what's going to sound even to my ears? I set audio levels, until I heard them even.

Still, I understand now what you mean. The graph shows you the differences with my hearing as an individual, then. Other reviews experienced similar, so I'm not the only one. My current headphones aren't suitable for my hearing, that's for sure.

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normen
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20 Apr 2018

Aren't objective and subjective objective terms? :)

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selig
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20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
19 Apr 2018
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
19 Apr 2018


Then you're tools are the wrong ones. You should be able to find flat sounding stuff. There are many great headphones with a flat frequency range. Reference material sounds great on these.
Yeah, the current headphones really have a sound I don't like at all.
When equalized flat, this little sample sounds about balanced out. Without the headphones equalized, the treble scratches my eardrums.

It's not your phones…
That sounds totally hyped on the top end to my ears. Too much treble, not a natural "pink noise" curve at all, at least to my ears on my system. If I equalized that to sound right, then pretty much nothing else I listen to would be acceptable on any level.

Could this one example explain why I don't understand your process?
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RobC
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20 Apr 2018

selig wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
19 Apr 2018


Yeah, the current headphones really have a sound I don't like at all.
When equalized flat, this little sample sounds about balanced out. Without the headphones equalized, the treble scratches my eardrums.

It's not your phones…
That sounds totally hyped on the top end to my ears. Too much treble, not a natural "pink noise" curve at all, at least to my ears on my system. If I equalized that to sound right, then pretty much nothing else I listen to would be acceptable on any level.

Could this one example explain why I don't understand your process?
If you take sine waves, equalize them one by one with an equalizer so one doesn't sound louder than the other one, then keep that equalizer on and listen to the sample with that calibrated setting, then it should sound even in every frequency band (well, approximately). The highest band is between 10 an 15 kHz which might be screwed up a little.
Sine waves go from 30 Hz, always one octave higher, so 60 Hz 120 Hz, etc. This was a quick test with GoldWave's FIR linear phase Spectrum Filter. Bands are 20-40 Hz 40-80 Hz 80-160 Hz etc. Square shaped isolation for each. Above 15 kHz it was wiped out.

How isn't it my phones, if I experienced the same with some Bernie Grundman masters?
Pink noise sounds pretty uneven for the human hearing in my opinion.

The sine wave calibration method will get you pretty much what I hear.
For example you listen to 30 Hz and you do an A/B comparison with 60 Hz. If one sounds louder than the other, you take the louder one's EQ fader a bit back, until they sound even to your hearing. Better set the target level around 2 kHz, and start comparing and equalizing from there.

For me, that sine wave calibration method opened a whole new dimension.

RobC
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20 Apr 2018

I even found an approximate gray noise sample, that should sound more or less, even in all frequency bands after your system was calibrated to your hearing by equalizing with the help of sine waves.


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normen
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20 Apr 2018

What the Fletcher-Munson curves say is that you don't hear the same in every frequency. And that is normal, your hearing has developed to hear twigs break, babies scream and other such things. When a (real) trumpet plays you hear some frequencies "louder than they are" but that is not a reason to turn those frequencies down when you play the trumpet on headphones.

RobC
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20 Apr 2018

normen wrote:
20 Apr 2018
What the Fletcher-Munson curves say is that you don't hear the same in every frequency. And that is normal, your hearing has developed to hear twigs break, babies scream and other such things. When a (real) trumpet plays you hear some frequencies "louder than they are" but that is not a reason to turn those frequencies down when you play the trumpet on headphones.
I didn't reference those curves, but I calibrated those static sine waves so they all sound normal to me. (The noise sample was equalized with the calibrated EQ already on the headphones.) After listening to some Bernie Grundman masters with the calibration, the whole thing sounded ~ with one word: real. Sure, it had some of the Spectrum Filter artifacts, but it worked.

Now if I would use live instruments, truly live recordings, I'd try to make it sound as close to real life, as possible. In the electronic world, it's up to us how we want synthesizer-generated audio to sound.
I think I understand why a few started moaning. xD

One thing is sure: I'd never ever use master equalization if possible.

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selig
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20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
I even found an approximate gray noise sample, that should sound more or less, even in all frequency bands after your system was calibrated to your hearing by equalizing with the help of sine waves.

That sounds horrible to my ears, not smooth at all with some frequencies sticking way out and others lost.

I think there's something wrong going on here, as this has very odd jumps in the response, not a smooth curve but a jagged response that is bound to mislead you if you're using it as any sort of reference.

I've said it before, but there are no free lunches, no "short cuts" to learning to hear and mix. You may be doing yourself no favors with this particular approach (this grey noise sample specifically).
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normen
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20 Apr 2018

Maybe check with the ear doctor too, our bassist found out that he has a very funny ear canal when we switched to in-ears. When he had a special fitting earpiece made for that he said he went on a new journey listening through all his favorite music again.

RobC
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20 Apr 2018

selig wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
I even found an approximate gray noise sample, that should sound more or less, even in all frequency bands after your system was calibrated to your hearing by equalizing with the help of sine waves.

That sounds horrible to my ears, not smooth at all with some frequencies sticking way out and others lost.

I think there's something wrong going on here, as this has very odd jumps in the response, not a smooth curve but a jagged response that is bound to mislead you if you're using it as any sort of reference.

I've said it before, but there are no free lunches, no "short cuts" to learning to hear and mix. You may be doing yourself no favors with this particular approach (this grey noise sample specifically).
Did you try it with the equalization I described? (It's not my invention.)

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selig
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20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
selig wrote:
20 Apr 2018


That sounds horrible to my ears, not smooth at all with some frequencies sticking way out and others lost.

I think there's something wrong going on here, as this has very odd jumps in the response, not a smooth curve but a jagged response that is bound to mislead you if you're using it as any sort of reference.

I've said it before, but there are no free lunches, no "short cuts" to learning to hear and mix. You may be doing yourself no favors with this particular approach (this grey noise sample specifically).
Did you try it with the equalization I described? (It's not my invention.)
Not following you here. Was I not suppose to listen to that noise sample on it’s own?

Seriously, maybe you should just follow your own path, you’ll only get conflicting views from us here on these subjects. We all have our own approaches that work for us. I was lucky to work for/with some amazing engineers and TBH much of what I do came from those early experiences looking over their shoulders. Still, I didn’t adopt everything each engineer did, I was picking and choosing to be sure! But what most had in common was a “less is more” approach. They hardly did much of anything in many cases, and achieved excellent results by knowing as much what NOT to do as what TO do. That was probably the most powerful lesson I took away from those early experiences.


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RobC
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20 Apr 2018

selig wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
Did you try it with the equalization I described? (It's not my invention.)
Not following you here. Was I not suppose to listen to that noise sample on it’s own?

Seriously, maybe you should just follow your own path, you’ll only get conflicting views from us here on these subjects. We all have our own approaches that work for us. I was lucky to work for/with some amazing engineers and TBH much of what I do came from those early experiences looking over their shoulders. Still, I didn’t adopt everything each engineer did, I was picking and choosing to be sure! But what most had in common was a “less is more” approach. They hardly did much of anything in many cases, and achieved excellent results by knowing as much what NOT to do as what TO do. That was probably the most powerful lesson I took away from those early experiences.


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No. You will only hear what I hear, once you calibrated your system.

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selig
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20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
selig wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Not following you here. Was I not suppose to listen to that noise sample on it’s own?

Seriously, maybe you should just follow your own path, you’ll only get conflicting views from us here on these subjects. We all have our own approaches that work for us. I was lucky to work for/with some amazing engineers and TBH much of what I do came from those early experiences looking over their shoulders. Still, I didn’t adopt everything each engineer did, I was picking and choosing to be sure! But what most had in common was a “less is more” approach. They hardly did much of anything in many cases, and achieved excellent results by knowing as much what NOT to do as what TO do. That was probably the most powerful lesson I took away from those early experiences.


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No. You will only hear what I hear, once you calibrated your system.
My system IS calibrated. I can only hear what you hear if I had your body. I think we are talking past each other here - look at the response to the noise and you’ll see what I’m talking about - there’s no EQ I’m aware of that can fix that noise sample to sound natural.


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RobC
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20 Apr 2018

selig wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
No. You will only hear what I hear, once you calibrated your system.
My system IS calibrated. I can only hear what you hear if I had your body. I think we are talking past each other here - look at the response to the noise and you’ll see what I’m talking about - there’s no EQ I’m aware of that can fix that noise sample to sound natural.


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At least listen to sine waves carefully. If you hear one louder than the other, then it's not calibrated the same way.

Start with B0 (30.87Hz) and always go one octave above. Or use a tone generator. 30 Hz, 60 Hz, 120 Hz, etc.

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selig
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Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
selig wrote:
20 Apr 2018


My system IS calibrated. I can only hear what you hear if I had your body. I think we are talking past each other here - look at the response to the noise and you’ll see what I’m talking about - there’s no EQ I’m aware of that can fix that noise sample to sound natural.


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At least listen to sine waves carefully. If you hear one louder than the other, then it's not calibrated the same way.

Start with B0 (30.87Hz) and always go one octave above. Or use a tone generator. 30 Hz, 60 Hz, 120 Hz, etc.
I use FuzzMeasure to calibrate my system. Much finer control than using a few sine waves. Bottom line is I have a system where my mixes translate well, which is the goal, right?

I never answered your question “which headphones to get”: the one you don’t have to calibrate.
[emoji6]


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normen
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20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
At least listen to sine waves carefully. If you hear one louder than the other, then it's not calibrated the same way.

Start with B0 (30.87Hz) and always go one octave above. Or use a tone generator. 30 Hz, 60 Hz, 120 Hz, etc.
The single frequencies are SUPPOSED to sound as if they had different volumes. That IS the Fletcher-Munson curve - thousands of people doing exactly what you describe and then put into a graph. It shows us what frequencies we perceive extra-loud, every day - no need to EQ anything.

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selig
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20 Apr 2018

normen wrote:
RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
At least listen to sine waves carefully. If you hear one louder than the other, then it's not calibrated the same way.

Start with B0 (30.87Hz) and always go one octave above. Or use a tone generator. 30 Hz, 60 Hz, 120 Hz, etc.
The single frequencies are SUPPOSED to sound as if they had different volumes. That IS the Fletcher-Munson curve - thousands of people doing exactly what you describe and then put into a graph. It shows us what frequencies we perceive extra-loud, every day - no need to EQ anything.
To add to that, another important aspect of the F/M curves was to point out that what we heard as “balanced” at all frequencies CHANGES with playback level. There isn’t just ONE F/M curve - it’s measured on a continuum.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... s4.svg.png


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